Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How did they make this scratch?

This is topic How did they make this scratch? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-28-2013, 08:47 PM:

Print #5 of The Bling Ring scratched from head to tail with a scratch I've never seen before. Slightly curved diagonal scratches. Deep emulsion. The main scratch flashes as it moves up the frame. Disappears for awhile and then enters again from the bottom of the frame and flashes it's way up again. This goes on for awhile, then it enters from the top of the frame and works its way to the bottom. Full cycle is about 30 secs. Lather Rinse Repeat through the whole film.

Obviously a platter problem, but how did they do it?

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 09-28-2013, 09:02 PM:

Almost sounds like it might be a problem that happened over multiple runs and the different projectionists turn the film different ways at twist points.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-28-2013, 09:15 PM:

The scratches are too consistent. And if they all are scratching films this badly every time in the same way, some one would have turned them in by now.
I have reported it to Technicolor. I am probably going to get a DVD from Redbox and just show that the rest of the week.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-28-2013, 11:25 PM:

How about film riding on the flange of a roller?

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-29-2013, 09:26 AM:

Flange would explain the shape, but wouldn't the scratches be oriented vertically to the frame instead of horizontally?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-29-2013, 11:50 AM:

Given the diagnonal angle of the scratch, I'm wondering if it was done by a roller that was not mounted at a totally horizontal or vertical angle. The angled roller on a platter brain riding up and down on its spindle as the result of the retaining bolt having worked loose, perhaps?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-29-2013, 11:53 AM:

Usually diagonal marks are from dragging the edge of a platter during makeup or tear down.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-29-2013, 12:05 PM:

In a platter system, there are likely to be rollers that have to be turned at odd angles to get the film to go around corners. The upper and lower magazine rollers are commonly turned this way.

The Kelmar reel arms with the adjustable rollers are easy to bend into the right position to get the film to flow smoothly from point A to point B but they are also easy to pull out of position by accident. A brain wrap or even a momentary tug on the film can pull them out of alignment. They are easy to adjust and to keep adjusted if you have the knack but "casual" operators often just don't see the problem when it happens.

I'm going to hazard a guess that it was the lower magazine roller that got pulled out of alignments because, when it happens, the problem often goes unnoticed. The roller is near the floor, out of sight lines of somebody who isn't watching. Furthermore, when damage does occur, the problem isn't apparent until the next time the movie runs because it happens after the film has been projected. Your average casual operator will look at the picture on the screen and think everything is all right because the picture looks good. What they don't realize is that the film is going through a proverbial meat grinder right under their noses.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-29-2013, 12:06 PM:

Afterthought...

quote: Martin McCaffrey
Full cycle is about 30 secs

30 seconds of action is 45 feet of film, and I'd guess that 45 feet is around the typical film path from platter to projector and back again. If so, this would suggest that the damage was done during a projection cycle, unless a weird make-up procedure was in use (e.g. from 6k reel on upper feed spindle, through projector and then taken up on platter).

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-29-2013, 02:01 PM:

Having now looked closely at the actual print, there are lots of horizontal scratches, most only deep enough to only show as black, like base scratches. The main deep scratch, the one that moves up (or down) the projected picture, occurs every 7 frames. It's a hard matte 1:85, which probably accounts for the timeout factor on screen.

So, what would come in contact with the print approx 3 times a second? Does sound like a roller, I just can't imagine what would leave that deep a scratch.

and here's and out of focus shot of the film's credits showing the scratch:

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-29-2013, 02:36 PM:

Seven frames is about six and a half inches. Right?

Divide by pi and we can guess that whatever the film ran on was about two-point-something inches in diameter.

That's in the range of something about the size of a film roller.

The angled payout roller in the center of a Speco platter is another likely culprit.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-29-2013, 02:42 PM:

The DCP's of that movie looked great!

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-29-2013, 05:53 PM:

The cinematography is so flat lit and mushy I don't think anything can make it look great;>

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-30-2013, 01:02 AM:

The multiple standing scratches are loop scratches from someone making their loops too big (such as the lower loop on a Christie projector).

That long line looks to me like a platter roller scratch. There is an old discussion about odd platter scratches (not the typical "drag over the edge of the deck" type of diagonal scratch) here.

Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 09-30-2013, 06:06 PM:

it looks like the natorious horizontal scratch caused by overlaping the film on the take up roller on the christi platter it only happens on the newer design rooler.it was never an issue on the old design.i have posted a video on you tube i recreated the scratch so you can see it happening in reel time.if interested send e-mail i will direct you to it.it actually scratches 2 times thats why it looks so bad and on the emulsion side.i had to constently monitor the booth emplyees as it happend quit alot.hope this helps.i ended up changing all the take up arm rollers to the old design problen resolved.