Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Simplex projector oil

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Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-16-2013, 08:45 AM:

So after reading some old posts about projector oil, is there a better lube to use in Simplex 35/70 heads than the stock oil? These machines run 70MM 30fps. They are idle for 9 months out of the year then used everyday for 3 months.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-16-2013, 12:11 PM:

10 weight non detergent is the design oil for XL, Simplex and also Century. A little hard to find but Chevron GST ISO 32 will work. I never found it in less than 55 gallon drums. Louis

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-16-2013, 12:37 PM:

So, Century oil and Simplex oil are the same thing? Even though they come in different cans?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-16-2013, 02:07 PM:

They aren't the same Scott...never have been. Simplex is lighter weight and a different color (odor)...etc.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-16-2013, 02:59 PM:

Steve is right as usual. Damned annoying I must say.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-16-2013, 07:29 PM:

Simplex oil has a certain percentage of varnish in it. I had Chevron run tests on several oils as well as a "clean slate" showing them an intermittent cutaway and supplying speeds and temperatures.

I never purchased Simplex again. Testing was done about 1986 using both old and new Simplex oil.

Ran new and old machines on this oil for over 25 years. Also Nick Malones dad used 30 weight non detergent oil from 1948 until his old century C's were scrapped (50+ years) We did his first intermittent overhauls, so it must have worked OK.

Must not be too critical as long as it doesn't leak out. Louis

Perhaps this is why the old projector heads were able to not leak; they had "stop-leak" in the oil. louis

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-16-2013, 07:38 PM:

SIMPLEX XL oil was originally a capella oil from texaco for refrigeration but is a non detergent 10 weight
Simplex E7 Super Regular Standard Ballantyne and century #20

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-16-2013, 07:56 PM:

I don't argue that Century oil will work in an XL but the point is they are not one and the same.

I ran Century movements on automatic transmission fluid and got years and years from them and it was easy to find the leak due to the color. The idea was auto fluid does not foam which seemed like a good idea in a movement.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-16-2013, 08:10 PM:

So running these heads at 30fps with 70MM film, I should stick with regular simplex oil?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-16-2013, 10:28 PM:

I would say thinner Simplex oil is better for the XL Int. movement as it can kind of starve for oil being more or less a drip system.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-16-2013, 10:41 PM:

You people are all living in the Dark Ages... Think Synthetic on this equipment too! Then you can go 10,000 reels between oil changes...

LaVezzi HPO-4 is the best oil I've ever used. Expensive for sure but when you open up a 7 to 10 year old Ultramittent and the oil is still clean inside... that speaks for itself. Works fine in older Simplex's, Century's and DP-70's but it does list at 55.00 a gallon. Not for X-L's though as it's too heavy.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-20-2013, 12:50 PM:

You can learn a lot from the MSDS data that's required to be available.
The history of Simplex oil is a bit complicated, but the recent product is not the same as what you got in the 50s/60s.
Simplex projector oil bought recently (since 1990 anyway) is compressor oil: C3 if I recall correctly (take a look at the MSDS to confirm). You can get a gallon jug of colored C3 oil quite cheap (Harbor Freight etc.) or order the clear type (like "real" Simplex oil) from an industrial supplier at more cost and a 5gal minimum - but the colored stuff is fine. Ballantyne oil is a thicker compressor oil - C4 I think. The oil used originally (Chevron spindle oil?) hasn't been available for decades.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-24-2013, 12:46 PM:

Dave...

Mobil Velocite Oil 10 is what most people are using in place of Chevron Spindle oil these days. It is the most readily available spindle oil around. It's about the same price as a gallon of "Simplex" oil from Strong... I have used it both in Simplex's and in my verticle mill spindle. Works perfect and is even available on Ebay from quarts up to 5 gallon pails. About $130 USD per 5 gallons.

Mark

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-24-2013, 05:44 PM:

I don't know the source; it was in my booth when I got there. We have PR1014 X-L's.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 11-05-2013, 07:46 PM:

Ilove dicussions about lubricants and what is best or better.I ran Singer sewing machine oil in my EASTMAN Model 30 from the time I changed the OEM oil from Kodak and its been doing great for decades.When I raced motorcycles back in the 60's BSA told us to run SAE 90w in the transmission.Probably lost 3 to 5 horsepower from the drag.used 50 weight from then on and never had any problems.I'm old school and believe synthetic oils are for lazy people that actually believe your engine should not need an oil change for 20k....

I am back on the film forum after an 8 year absence.I really got some catching up to do...Looks like digital is doing to film what flat screen TV's did to CRT televisions.Anyway it is good to be back.Is Ken Layton still up here? He was one of the more informed and knowledgable Guys when I was still on the forum....SM

Posted by Harry Robinson (Member # 265) on 11-09-2013, 10:32 AM:

I just purchased a quart of Velocite 10 oil, based on what I read on this thread. Just checking so I don't screw up my old Super, can I use this in the super in place of the old CPI oil I have left from when I was more active in the hobby?
I'm getting more time to enjoy tinkering with the gear now. Also, non- detergent oil in the 1040 head, right?
The oil I have has been sitting around for a couple of years.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 12-04-2013, 12:01 PM:

So the general consensus is that either 30 weight non detergent or ATF is ok for a century intermittent? (I'm presently using 30 weight non d in my own machine.) By the way, what exactly is century damping fluid assuming there will come a day where you can't find FD-120 anymore.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-04-2013, 03:10 PM:

I believe the damping fluid is mineral oil.

No two dampers are alike in clearance so it was not in anyway a precision device. Probably anything from Mazola to olive oil will do. [puke]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-04-2013, 03:53 PM:

Andy Marglin of Kelmar fame tested several formulations of "dampening" fluid. They are NOT all the same. Wow and flutter can be manipulated with changing fluids. Louis

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-04-2013, 05:32 PM:

Aside from making a poor joke, my point is the Century devices were so poorly made just putting in the correct fluid would sometimes lock it up, while other times you could not tell the difference between full or empty.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-05-2013, 03:54 PM:

LOL! "

quote: Steve Matz
I'm old school and believe synthetic oils are for lazy people that actually believe your engine should not need an oil change for 20k....

If you ever tore down a Christie Ultramittent that was 15 years old and ran 7 days a week six shows a day and saw how clean and clear the LaVezzi oil still was you'd be Mr. Synthetic by now. Many new cars require it and many are shipped from the factory with in already in the engine, tranny and differential. In my Hummer switching to synthetic in the drive train actually improved the gas mileage about 4mpg! In your case you probably could have gotten 2000 more revs out of your motorcycle engine's before they blew up!

Sam is right on about the century Dampner. Tolerances were so varied that some of them work well when just filled with water.

Mark

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 12-15-2013, 12:30 PM:

Mark,Put some CASTROL R in that Christie Intermittent or any other intermittent and check it in another 15 years [sleep]

and it will look as good as the lavezzi and with no wear to the star or cam. I will wait for your reply on the results [beer]

wait a minute did I say 15 years? [Eek!]

[note] Back in the late 60's HARLEY DAVIDSON was doing oil testing in the Race Dept. for the upcoming XR750 factory racers.
They ran several test engines with different oils running them continuously for 500 hrs w/ rpms rangeing from 1500 to 8000rpms.
after tear down the engine using Castrol R had only .001 thousandth cylinder bore wear and nil on bottomend components. [thumbsup]

Its Great Stuff even if it is Bean Oil! [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2013, 12:42 PM:

quote: Steve Matz
Back in the late 60's HARLEY DAVIDSON was doing oil testing in the Race Dept. for the upcoming XR750 factory racers.

The problem is... Back in the 60's Harley Davidson's leaked out oil almost as fast as you could pour it in. Hence... they ALWAYS had fresh oil in them. It wasn't until the late 70's or early 80's that H-D started having the case castings and other parts in the oil flow chain vaccum impregnated with sealent. A friend of mine actually worked at the company near Milwaukee where that was done.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 12-16-2013, 12:42 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The problem is... Back in the 60's Harley Davidson's leaked out oil almost as fast as you could pour it in. Hence... they ALWAYS had fresh oil in them. It wasn't until the late 70's or early 80's that H-D started having the case castings and other parts in the oil flow chain vaccum impregnated with sealent. A friend of mine actually worked at the company near Milwaukee where that was done.

Your talking about the AMF Garbage years at HD. Racing Aluminum Alloy Parts(i.e.main cases,heads,cylinders,etc. have never been built in house by HD for over 40+ years.They were done by a subcontracted foundry in Ohio.The Race engines never leaked oil,just the Street junk.

I'm no lover of this Company even though I had some of their race bikes in the later 60's and 70's. We had to race ohv 500's against their KR 750's for years since they always had the AMA in their back pocket convincing them that because the KR was a flathead/SV engine with inferior breathing capability compaired to an OHV/OHC engine;saying the extra 250cc's put us all on a level playing field. [Confused]

HD Philosophy since the mid 70's in Racing is "If you can't beat'em,get'em Banned!" [puke]

Getting back to Topic Castrol R is still probably the best Petroleum oil there ever was! [thumbsup]

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 12-16-2013, 09:40 AM:

still off topic [Smile]

quote:
In my Hummer switching to synthetic in the drive train actually improved the gas mileage about 4mpg!

Mark, what was the cost and is it worth it? My mechanic said I'm looking at around $500-600 to switch in my H3 (the high price of the fluids and the labor involved). I don't drive enough to justify shelling out that much just to save a couple dollars a month in gas.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-16-2013, 12:10 PM:

Richard...

Take your mechanic out and shoot him! You can get a Mobil 1 oil change at most oil change places for about 70 bucks. Thats what we pay for a Mobil 1 oil change in our H3 here at Grease Monkey. The other thing is you only have to change oil about every 15 K to 20 K miles. So if you had done 4 regular oil changes in 20,000 miles... we do ours once a year... those would have cost you more at 30 bucks each. I have had synthetic oil in our H3 engine since the first change and it's at 130K and runs as good as the day we bought it. Over half those miles are off roading miles too. I had the transfer case and differential done at about 10k miles. The combination of the three resulted in 3 to 4 mpg better mileage. The oil change places also do those with synthetic as well but it's so long I don't remember the exact cost. Under a hundred bucks for both though. Another thing that might matter is the year of your H3. The early ones had a smaller engine then i 07 they came out with the larger engine which we have. I can get up to 24 mpg on the highway crusing at 75 with it.

Steve Matz... My Harley days are way past. I traded the Harely for a horse. Way more fun!