Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 35mm projector questions

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Posted by William Wells (Member # 7930) on 11-04-2013, 10:53 AM:

Hello all,

I recently bought a portable ZENIT 35mm projector, and had a couple of questions. I'm coming over from 16mm film, but it seems like there are a few more steps to running 35mm... [Smile]

I bought a 35mm print of 2001: A Space Odyssey the other day, and when I unboxed it I noticed it had magnetic tracks, which make me think it also has CS perfs. Is there any way to tell? Also, is anyone familiar enough with the ZENIT portable projectors to know whether they are 1. safe to run a mag print on and 2. safe for CS perforations?

Thanks in advance for any help. I really appreciate it!

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-04-2013, 11:03 AM:

Best way to tell about the sprockets would be to take a closeup picture of each of them and post them here. Also of the projector.

I have not heard of this projector, but others probably have.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-04-2013, 11:09 AM:

How many mag stripes does it have? Four was normal for 35 mm, but one and three were also used, but not common. Does it also have a narrow optical stripe next to one of the mag stripes? For a film of this date I would expect that it does.

CS perfs are easy to recognise; they are almost square, while normal KS ones are rectangular. compare it with some normal 35 mm film, either motion picture, or even some still film. If you're not sure then post a scan or a photograph of a few perfs and we can tell you for sure.

I don't know the Zenit, but I assume that it cannot run magnetic sound; very few portable machines could; I only ever saw one. If it cannot then it may, or may not, have sprockets with teeth which can be used with CS perfs; I think it is more likely that it does not, but I can't be sure without seeing them. If they are not suitable then they would damage the print if you tried to run it.

The other possible problem is that anything which the print comes into contact with, or close to, including projector parts and spools, splicers etc., must not be magnetised. All steel parts should be de-magnetised before running a mag print.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 11-04-2013, 11:13 AM:

Also, are there any mag prints of 2001 left without VS? Did the print smell like salad dressing when you unboxed it? One of the consequences of Vinegar Syndrome is that the print can shrink far enough down to make a formerly projectable print into a smelly unprojectable boat anchor.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-04-2013, 11:54 AM:

Assuming that the perforations are not Fox holes, could this be a magoptical print? Annyoingly I can't find any photo of one on Google Images, and so can't point you to an image. If so, it'll run on your machine and you'll hear some audio (albeit poor quality and mono), but oxide is likely to shed like mad, and keeping the film path clean will be a never-ending job.

Also, if the image on your print has not faded to a reddish/pinkish hue (e.g. if the blacks of outer space still look really black, and not dark pink), you have a dye-transfer, or imbibition (IB) print made using the Technicolor process. These are extremely rare and valuable, precisely because they don't fade, and are real collectors' items.

Posted by William Wells (Member # 7930) on 11-04-2013, 12:08 PM:

OK, so I took some pictures of the print and have some pictures saved of the projector, but when I try to post them it says I can't link to outside images? How do I post images here? In the meantime, here's the Photobucket album: http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/ww123-2008/library/ZENIT%20Projector

In any case, it does appear to be mono optical/mag 4 track. It also has the CS perfs, as I figured. I asked the seller of the projector if it would damage the mag-portion of the print playing it back on the projector and apparently it is safe, I just wanted an unbiased second opinion.

I'm still at a loss as to whether the projector will play CS perfs. If it has the KS sprockets, is there any way to change it over to CS (without an incredible amount of time/effort/money)?

As far as VS, it is not present on this film (tested with my nose and AD strips - passed on both counts). Would Filmrenew or Filmguard help the mag strips not decompose/flake as they run through the film path, or is it pretty much a lost cause keeping them from flaking?

Thanks so much for all the answers so far. I really appreciate the help!

Edit: Also, I forgot to mention - not a Tech print. The Discovery is floating in the deep "crimson" of space... [Big Grin]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-04-2013, 02:13 PM:

Filmguard would definitely help keep oxide shedding under control, in my experience. I also noticed from your pic of the leader that there is a bit of shrinkage-caused warping. Doesn't look too bad from what I can see, but FG also helps reduce the picture wobble and focus issues that this can cause. In fact, for projecting older acetate prints, FG is an all round good idea.

If you can find some Fox hole sprockets for your projector (you'd need a complete set - feed, intermittent and pay-out), and if swapping them out doesn't necessitate major surgery to the projector, then that's all you should need to do (though slight shutter re-timing might be needed afterwards).

How possible this is depends on if you can get hold of the sprockets in the first place (were they ever made for this model?), and how difficult they are to fit. That depends on the design of the projector. For example, on a Cinemeccanica Vic 5, one Allen key and 20 minutes or so is all you need to swap a complete set of sprockets. On an FP-20, in constrast, simply replacing the intermittent sprocket requires major disassembly and, the one time I had to do it, it took me 2-3 hours. I've never seen or worked with your model, and so couldn't say.

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 11-04-2013, 02:15 PM:

If it is a Zenith projector it is from the 30's or 40's and was a used for portable use. Most of them being silent machines.

I would not run any magnetic film on it. I also doubt if any c/s sprockets were made for a Zenith and if not could damage your print. Pictures would be nice to make sure what machine it is.

If your 2001 has all 4 tracks it will have c/s perfs and should be very faded if not smelling. It would sound great if you can fine someone with a magnetic set up assuming the tracks are still good.

Too bad you don't live near Portland, OR as I have mag all set up.
Dick

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 11-04-2013, 02:27 PM:

Take a piece of leader and see if it fits on the sprockets. Fox sprocket holes should fit snugly if you have CS sprockets. If you have KS then they won't fit. It would help to see a close up picture of your machine's sprockets.

Posted by William Wells (Member # 7930) on 11-04-2013, 02:31 PM:

Here's some more info on the projector from the original seller email: "Not sure if I mentioned this but it will include a visible red reader, mono sound. We’ll also include a few lenses."

Is this the right company? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konvas

As far as the sprockets, I'll look into them and see if they can be replaced if they wind up not being CS sprockets. As far as the leader, both head and tail are horrible Fiesta leader (as it's called over on 16mmfilmtalk), so they will be replaced. Any sources for new polyester leader? I'll also be applying some Filmrenew, followed by some Filmguard just to be safe. Hopefully those in combination will keep the oxide shedding under control.

As far as running the prints on a mag projector, I'll be going up to Portland in mid-December - if the offer still stands I'd love to take you up on it!

Edit: I haven't received the projector yet (it's with UPS right now - I should have it by sometime mid-week) but wanted to get all the details ironed out before it got here...

2nd Edit: Just found out that the Zenit projector is basically a Zeiss Jena TK35 clone (which makes sense, considering the Russians got a bunch of the Zeiss patents after WWII). Anyway, I thought I'd add that tip to see if it helps anybody. [Smile]

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-04-2013, 05:03 PM:

That is russian made MOSKINAP projector, i don't think they did made it under name ZENIT, but maybe depending where did they export. I had some sets converted to red cyan reader for analog sound, because they were common in schools and similar institutions here, and hence some were used in small open air venues. But, don't screen 35mm 2001 on it, it will damage they perforation, and probably since it's all normal metal it could damage magnetic track on film, which, in you're case it is so rare to find 2001 on 35mm (i would kill to get print like that [Smile]

).

Back to projector, yes it's Zeiss TK35 clone to say (even some doubt that russian variant is older???). But it was very poor made, soundhead was awfull and so on....i think that is probably from 1960's. Check does it have aperture plates, some older ne including mine at warehouse has only 1:1,37 fixed mask on it.

Posted by William Wells (Member # 7930) on 11-04-2013, 05:16 PM:

Ah, very interesting. When I googled "Moskinap," this is what I found about the ZENIT brand:

"In total approximately 3000 cameras were sold by MKA in the mid 1990's most having been made by ZENIT a company that had better quality control than Moskinap, and manufactured the Krasnogorsk-3 camera. Strangely enough this would have made MKA the largest new motion picture camera dealer in the world for the 1990's."

I'll check on the film plates. As far as I know, it has a standard mask on it, but it will work with a Cinemascope lens...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-04-2013, 06:53 PM:

I have a brand new pair of those still in the crates in my storage locker. Also have quite a few spare parts for them. I ran one of them for a few months at home on and off and they didn't seem to damage film at all. Mine have Cinamascope sprockets. This set does not have magazines but the take up is all gear driven and they are 5/16" shafts. Came with same pedestals as yours, an adjustable voltage regulator transformer and the Russian solid state amplifier. They are a copy of an Ziess portable as Marin says.

Posted by William Wells (Member # 7930) on 11-04-2013, 09:03 PM:

Oh, exciting! That means mine has a good chance of having CS sprockets. Also, it has a good chance of being gentle to some extent on the film. Cool! Thanks for the info!

Hey, if mine winds up not having CS sprockets, would you be interested in selling me the sprockets (I could trade you mine plus some cash or something)?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-04-2013, 09:06 PM:

No, but I'd trade the projectors for something else. Personally, they are just a conversation piece.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 11-05-2013, 12:07 AM:

Nipomo is apparently about 300 miles north of San Diego, but I do have a Century JJ down here with a mag penthouse with 35 and 70 heads hooked up to an MPU and through to a CP650. The 70 is tested through, but I've never had the chance to run 35 mag through it before. Give me a shout if you feel like coming south. It's just one projector with reel arms only, (no platter) but hey...

Posted by Jock Blakley (Member # 6552) on 11-05-2013, 12:54 AM:

We've got a 35/70 mag set-up on Vic 8s here if you want to come even further south [Wink]

Posted by William Wells (Member # 7930) on 11-05-2013, 12:58 AM:

Hey, I may take you up on the offer of driving down to San Diego. It really isn't that bad of a drive... [Smile]

As far as Australia, that would be cool too, but it's a bit longer of a drive!

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 11-05-2013, 02:55 AM:

You've got mail with a few details...

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-05-2013, 01:42 PM:

I don't think you will find any russian sprocket that have narrow teeth for magnetic scope prints for this machine, except you could you some other 32 tooth one's and do some lathe job to made adapter to suit them on KH projector? but than, you still don't have magnetic reader on it [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-05-2013, 02:00 PM:

Will take picture next time I am at the storage. These are definitely NOT regular tooth sprockets...

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 11-05-2013, 02:07 PM:

William, I should have read the forum before I replied. Different projector then I thought but sprockets still need to be checked to see if they fit the film and the machine needs to be checked for any magnetism before running the film. All your projector will give you is the optical track without a magnetic head which would go on top of the projector.

If you come to Portland I would be glad to run some of the film for you.
Dick