Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Ed Wolk company closed

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-04-2013, 03:21 PM:

Don Markus called over the week end and he told me he was discarding the last of everything as we spoke.

He did say he sent his Simplex and Century apertures to James Bond of Full Aperture. Also, perhaps a few gears but apart from that, he said it's all gone.

Sad but inevitable.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-04-2013, 03:52 PM:

I know how he feels. My "stash" is about to have its final resolution. Offer being now considered for the building. Louis

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-04-2013, 05:39 PM:

Louis,

I would make a list of what you have for the record and post it here so some of us can make a last buy.

It won't be too long before it will be very difficult to find gears, bands and what not.

It bothered me that Don did not do this but he never was a joiner.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-04-2013, 09:23 PM:

Yeah...I was disappointed that he didn't do what LaVezzi did in telling his dealers that he was shutting it down...then one could do that "last buy."

The problem is, there are wearable items in the projectors were the last parts are now gone. Even a silly Simplex rubber pinch roller is NLA. Though there are many on existing machines, they are a wear item.

How about the Century GR-8? That is a wear item and any existing machines that use it, will have a worn one. (The same would be true for the other Century fiber gears...I was just using the GR-8 as an example).

I know that we, at Cardinal, want to support film machines as long as possible but it has become extremely difficult for domestic machines, all of the sudden.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-04-2013, 11:53 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Even a silly Simplex rubber pinch roller is NLA. Though there are many on existing machines, they are a wear item.

Yup, and they put wear onto the film prints too. GOOD RIDDANCE!!!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-05-2013, 06:48 AM:

Except they are an essential part of the Simplex soundhead and now that changeovers are the rule (again)...can not be dispensed with.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-05-2013, 07:53 AM:

What do changeovers have to do with it? Were they ever dispensable? Have you seen Joe's modification in the Warehouse? I never personally tried it, but it looks like a really cool idea.

Very sad about Wolk. [Frown]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-05-2013, 12:08 PM:

Ugh. This is sad news for all concerned. It would have been nice (and maybe lucrative for them) if they had done a fire sale before dumping the parts, though.

Can the soundhead pinch rollers be rebuilt with new rubber? I know that there are companies that do this for tape recorder pinch rollers, and these are not all that much different.

Is there a list somewhere of the "wear items" that we should all be hoarding? I'm thinking trap bands, springs, any and all gears, sprockets, pad rollers, soundhead pinch rollers, bearings, and, of course, intermittents. No doubt, I am missing some important items here.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-05-2013, 01:11 PM:

"In 100 years it isn't going to make a bit of difference" - Charlie Wolk

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-05-2013, 01:33 PM:

I have quite a number of brand new LaVezzi overhaul kit for XL and Century all models. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-05-2013, 03:44 PM:

I think there's no doubt that Don probably wants to retire by now. It woulda been nice as Steve said if he had notified everyoen. He'd be tossing much less stuff in the trash if he had. There is still LIT which also has many parts in stock but mainly just surplus...

Mark

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 12-05-2013, 05:29 PM:

Unfortunate but inevitable, the end of another long time trademark! FYI, I have not d-8'ed my parts yet! (Over 25,000 items) Including the elusive pinch rollers for IPC and RCA! Happy holidays to all!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-06-2013, 06:44 AM:

Ken, with changeovers...your impedance drum has to be up to speed before the changeover occurs or within 7 seconds...particularly if you have a basement digital reader that has to be stable before the changeover. Without the pinch roller, you'll never make it and have flutter in analog and no digital.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-06-2013, 07:17 AM:

For those who are sitting on substantial stocks of film projector parts, might it be worth a systematic sales outreach to the archive/rep/cinematheque type places that are going to try to continue running film, at least into the medium-term future? AMIA's film advocacy task force might be a good place to start. They might want to mailshot their members, sending them to this site's for sale board, perhaps post 'for sale' lists themselves, or offer some such solution. It just strikes me that at the moment, there is probably a small but definite group out there who could really use this stuff (especially, as Steve points out, the life-limited parts that, once unavailable, effectively brick the projector), and that with the right connections made, the people and companies that have surplus inventories that they no longer want to carry could at least monetise them to a small extent.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-06-2013, 08:39 AM:

Steve, I've had flutter in analog in platter houses when the lateral guide assembly containing that rubber pinch roller was not closed. Seems to me it's necessary either way.

quote: Leo Enticknap
effectively brick the projector

You mean boat anchor the projector. [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-06-2013, 10:33 AM:

The modification that removes the rubber pinch roller still keeps the LGR assembly so the film is guided and wraps the drum...it just takes much longer to get up to speed...so you shouldn't have a heavy flutter problem.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2013, 11:50 AM:

Ken...

Without the rubber roller it's going to work like the Apogee works... er it actually didn't work too good.

Mark

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-06-2013, 11:58 AM:

You'd think there would be enough money to be made in remaining sales of smaller critical parts to justify the labor & expense of devoting space to it especially as these things get rarer. But maybe not.

How long did Don own Wolk? I wonder if it ended up being a worthwhile investment. Naturally we'll never know the private details.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2013, 12:26 PM:

Thats why I saved a lot of intermittents and projector critical parts from all the pulls I did... I already shipped a box full of Simplex X-L 35/70 parts to a theater that was looking for parts to complete one for over two years.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-06-2013, 05:14 PM:

Steve...here is the real skinny of it all at this point in time.

Projectors were/are being pulled out for either scrap or to sit in the booth to avoid the expense of throwing them away.

Nobody is repairing their projectors unless they NEED to to make it till the end of the theatre or until they get digital. And then they will look to the used market FIRST. Even here on Film-Tech, you'll see people looking for used parts before they call up for new ones.

Now you are left with those that will continue to run film in theatres/screening rooms and collectors.

This market is VERY small and the collectors will also look to the used market first. Most of us saved a bucket or two of intermittents...those are the easy items. The wearables...well that is a different story...in the used department, they are worn so are not of much value and how many new ones did one stock? We had a decent supply of things that we consumed...we have always been a stocking dealer for film machines. But even we started to really roll back the stock as we saw the end coming near. It is a business after all. Who wants to be the guy that did a big restock on Exciter lamp sockets and such just before Red Readers hit? Heck, we still have half a dozen exciter lamp sockets that will likely never go into anything again!

So you have dealers that aren't ordering anything (or MUCH less) because they don't want stock anymore, the end-users don't want to spend any money on a machine they are going to throw away and what is left is going to pick from used first. That leaves an unsustainable business model for a new manufacturer.

You can have most any of this stuff made if you can get a machine shop to copy an existing part. Very little of it is very high precision too. The highest precision piece is the intermittent (and VKF sprockets) and those are probably in sufficient supply to last everyone their lifetimes and then some (used but very runable...you wouldn't repair one necessarily...just replace it). Sprockets don't wear that fast (and you get two sides to them) and with the amount of film that is going to be run from now on...again, you have probably sufficient to last everyone's life now. So again, there is no point in manufacturing new.

I think what will be particular issues will be Century gears where one will have to pick through varying degrees of wear if their gear fails unless they find someone that still has what they need. Simplex is a bit better off since their parts don't wear like Century gears. But they both have wearables. However, very little is such that the parts can't be reproduced if there was a need/demand.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-06-2013, 07:27 PM:

Well, I actually meant a dealer like Don Marcus keeping parts he already owned rather than pitching them.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-07-2013, 05:20 AM:

quote: Steve Kraus
You'd think there would be enough money to be made in remaining sales of smaller critical parts to justify the labor & expense of devoting space to it especially as these things get rarer. But maybe not.

There is a "film forever" movement within the archival community which believes that it'll be able to sustain film projection in a small number of specialist venues indefinitely. Whether they can or not remains to be seen. But my gut feeling is that if they're serious, some long-term planning to support a small number of projector models over the next, say, 1-2 decades needs to start now. It probably needs to be done by a non-profit rather than a commercial service company or dealer, because the volume and nature of the business is such that it simply wouldn't be possible for a commercial operation to make any significant margin on it.

quote: Steve Guttag
Heck, we still have half a dozen exciter lamp sockets that will likely never go into anything again!

It's the kind of thing that one of the very few theatres that have plans to run silver dye soundtrack prints into the medium-term future - e.g. George Eastman House or the Billy Wilder Theater - might want. That's why I was wondering if the film advocacy group or other group of activists might want to make a coordinated effort to reach out to the servicing companies and parts dealers that are currently clearing out inventory (in some cases, into dumpsters, as we've seen), make them offers, and then distribute these parts to venues that can use them. A program to harvest vital parts that are either inherently life-limited or have a high failure rate from film projectors that are being taken out of venues and junked before disposal could potentially be useful to the places that want to carry on screening archival prints, too. This is a one-time opportunity for them.

I've emailed the AMIA film advocacy people and let them know about this thread.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 12-07-2013, 10:05 AM:

This coincides with what I've been preaching on the collector boards for a while. Recently someone uncovered a craigslist ad for what looked like a complete century C picture and soundhead priced at $65. Immediately people were critiquing -- "oh is that a little rust I see?" etc. My argument was that any used gear that appears should be scrutinized for useful parts. I figure $65 would have been worth it especially if the intermittent was good. I agree with Steve on a number of points especially that a stash of used and new parts for someones private screening room will likely be enough for that kind of situation where maybe 10 hours of film a year or so gets run. However when the parts run dry as Steve mentioned a lot of parts can be fabbed up in a machine shop. Where there is a will, and enough people are in need, there is always a way.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-07-2013, 02:50 PM:

We set up a pair of the Library of Congress machines with IR LEDs since they will run almost all silvered soundtracks anyway...another pair of machines has red LEDs to handle any "modern" stuff.

The IR LEDs are much more stable than the red ones and with the amount of hours they put on the projectors...these LEDs should last dozens of years.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-08-2013, 06:06 AM:

quote: Sean Weitzel
Where there is a will, and enough people are in need, there is always a way.

That's going to be the kicker. Will the spending power of the people who are going to be in need be able to solve the problems?

The extreme example (and admittedly it's very extreme, but it does illustrate the principle) I use when discussing this is that of the Concorde. They were retired by the two airlines flying them because they were losing a shedload of money, and the PR kudos / snob value /advertising symbol that had previously justified running them as a loss-leader quite literally went up in flames in 2001.

After they were retired, aviation geeks were screaming for one or more of them to be maintained in airworthy condition, as flying museum exhibits. That could, theoretically, be done. But when the manufacturer, Airbus, told him how much it would cost to provide continuing spares and engineering support, even Richard Branson got cold feet and walked away. When you've got a multi-billionaire with a track record of splashing his cash on vanity projects deciding that this is too much, that's quite impressive! The planes are now all parked in museums on the ground, and that's where they're going to stay.

Granted, 35mm projector mechanisms and the peripheral equipment used with them are not rocket science (whereas the Concorde was, literally), but the same law of economics applies. When vital parts wear out and replacements are no longer being manufactured commercially, will the remaining pool of users have the spending power to solve the problem? Machine shop fabrication, 3D printing or whatever could be used in many cases, sure, but that comes with a price sticker attached. This is what the "film forever" crowd don't seem to get, and why, if they're serious, they should be trying to stockpile this stuff while they still have the chance, IMHO.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-08-2013, 11:14 AM:

There is also the fact that the remaining film venues are favoring a particular brand (Kinoton) since they were always the specialty venue machine and used by studios/screening rooms. As such, more and more market share (of a very small market) has gone their way.

While there may be enough demand (and that is debatable) for one brand to do short runs of vital parts...there isn't going to be enough demand to dilute that between a dozen different brands. Of course, it sucks to put all of one's eggs in one basket...single sourcing almost always will get you burned but that is fast becoming the only solution left.

I can get any part new for an FP20, 30, 40, 50, 75E...such is not the case for Simplex (any model), Century (any model) and I believe Christie officially pulls parts support in 2014 and may have already run out of key parts. Now again, some of these parts are not hard for a machine shop to duplicate...others..like sprockets or intermittent parts...that is another story.

My suspicion is that even Kinoton will so consolidate what projectors it supports. The "E" series is still viable in new facilities that want film. The core of their "D" series has been used on their machines for 5 decades so it should be easy to keep those wearables going and really the biggest wearables in a Kinoton mechanical machine are the skates (delrin, injection molded) and the intermittent coupler.

The more odd the machine, the faster the support will vanish. The DP75 already has parts that are NLA (I want to say a shutter bushing is in that category now). The FP16/18s no longer can obtain the skate made by Phillips (except late model FP18s that had Kinoton made skates...about circa 1993 and onwards).

If I were in the "film" showing business...I would be acquiring parts machines already (which is what has helped kill off parts sources like Wolk...why buy new when you have these parts machines around?).

Heck, when we finally pulled the Barco DP50 projectors from the AFI/Silver, since the lamphouse section was the Kinoton SK50 (same as used on the FP50), I suggested to strip the consoles to become parts sources for their eight existing Kinoton film projectors/lamphouses...they do plan to run film there indefinitely.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-08-2013, 05:55 PM:

A lot of the parts including gears and small castings will be able to be 3-D Printer relicated now or in the very close future. Metal 3-D printing is now a reality so as that process matures expect it to be commonly utilized to make spare projector parts... For instance, it would be quite easy to 3-D print FP-16, FP-18 skates right now. All one needs is an accurate drawing or a new unused part to duplicate from.
Shapeways is one place that could easily make the skates...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-08-2013, 10:46 PM:

It would be great if someone would replicate the FP16 skate (and possibly improve its wear characteristics. So far, nobody has done it. There are no existing drawings on it as it was never made by Kinoton and Phillips has seemingly trashed whatever molds they have on it. Kinoton looked into re-creating it but somehow deemed it not worth the effort (cost versus potential sales).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-10-2013, 06:58 PM:

If you can supply me with a new one or one that has very little use on it my wife can do what ever type of cad drawing would be required. 2-D, 3-d, etc... what ever. That part would fit the 3-D printing scheme like a glove. Same for FP-20 skates if they ever run out. Would have to experiment with the plastics that are available to make them out as far as wear on the skate and on the film go, but there is a fairly wide range of plastics available. Another route that could happen is CNC. Once the cad drawings are made those attributes directly relate to programming the CNC machine.

Mark

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 12-25-2013, 12:50 PM:

Lou B., John E. and Mark B.

Still working on my E-7s (vertical shafts & oblique), SH1000's, Century C, R-3 and RCA 1040 & Magnarcs. I work on them as time allows and when I have spare $$. Please contact me regarding parts that I may need...or leads that you may have. Lou has been a great friend and is already helping.

I know Wok had stuff in stock but prices were $$$ and they did not want to deal. Is all their stuff now trashed?

Cheers

Kutler

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-26-2013, 11:05 AM:

It's all gone except for aperture plates for XL and Century projectors and this was placed with a local dealer.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 12-26-2013, 01:00 PM:

Sam, do you know the local dealer?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-26-2013, 01:45 PM:

It would be the one with the cool last name like a British secret agent.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 12-26-2013, 08:37 PM:

I guess it's appropriate he got the Apertures;>

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-26-2013, 08:58 PM:

Speaking of projector Parts I have managed to secure a brand new FP-16 skate so we will soon know how well 3-D printing actually works. My wife will make a 3-D cad drawing for the 3-D printnig place to make the parts from.

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-27-2013, 12:18 AM:

Mark, You'll be getting a call from Christoph Dobler any day now.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-27-2013, 06:56 AM:

If he does...it will probably be to buy them! Kinoton never owned that skate...Philips did...that was the problem.

If there was a source for them, I could see Kinoton wanting to supply them since they wouldn't have any up-front costs tied up in it!

Good luck Mark (seriously)...let me know how they turn out!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-01-2014, 01:55 PM:

I only have one location I can test them at so I will send you a couple samples to try. I doubt Kinoton would be interested since selling new products is much better for the bottom line.