Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 36 inch spools on a Vic 5 ?

This is topic 36 inch spools on a Vic 5 ? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 12-30-2013, 04:53 PM:

Hi ,
Does anyone know if a Vic 5 on a normal base will accept a 36inch westrex reel? I know the spec says 6000 foot but there does seem a lot of room ? I know the feed arm will need raising. But was hoping ing to avoid lugging a tower to a festival .
Jon

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-30-2013, 06:57 PM:

The vertical clearance shouldn't be an insoluble problem (you could use spacers to raise the projector mechanism further from the spindle shaft if needed), but the spool might foul the lamphouse and/or the wall in front of the projector, depending on what sort of lamphouse is in use, how it's mounted and how far back from the porthole wall you can position the projector.

One potential gotcha occurs to me: I can't remember if the Vic 5 takeup spindle is belt-driven or has its own motor (or if both options were available depending on pedestal or console options in use). If it's belt driven, is the drive powerful enough to pull a fully-laden tower spool?

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 12-31-2013, 02:19 AM:

Hi Leo

The machine will be used at a festival so the projection box issues won't be a problem.

My v5 has a belt driven take up ( pulley from the drive motor) and I think all pedestal versions are the same ? So I didn't want to get into extending belts changing pulleys etc, it looks a chunky pulley and I would have thought that the motor should be enough to drive a five reeler on a 36 inch spool, but I've never tried it ! I held up a 40inch ez hub against the base and surprisingly it wasn't that far off fitting so I was wondering whether anyone has got away with a 36? Nex time I'm with the machine I will give it a go. The other option of course is to shave a little off the 36 inch spool?

Best wishes and a happy new year to all !😃

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-31-2013, 10:21 AM:

Sounds to me like it could probably be done, but would need some modification and experimentation before being used in anger. Is the spindle diameter of the Westrex tower spool the same as those on your Vic?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-31-2013, 11:38 AM:

When back in the day we installed vic5 with tower reels we had to use the vic8 base that supported the larger reels and held the complete optical center at a higher level
It also had a torque motor drive and a rewind motor on the upper plate
The standard sheet metal base that sat only under the head did not hold a tower reel the newer ones that had the base extending back under the lamphouse i dont know

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 12-31-2013, 11:42 AM:

Yes luckily all 1/2 inch. I seem to remember seeing a picture of a Vic 5 with a large wire spool on it, much bigger than a 6000 footer. Just hope the motor doesn't get strained, trouble is you wouldn't know there was a problem till near the end s the spool fills up, so I will follow your advice and test it out. Was thinking of removing the feed and mounting it on a base behind the machine to provide the feed, don't fancy a 36 " reel on top of the projector !

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 12-31-2013, 03:29 PM:

Back when I first started as a projectionist in 1986, I transferred over to a theater that was reel to reel with V4's, and we were using I think, 12000 ft reels. (They held 2 hours worth of film). The problem was the V4 was not designed for that big of a reel. If you stopped the projector for any reason, or had a film break, more than an hour and about 20 minutes into the reel, the strain trying to get it going again would, many times snap a "shear rod" in the take up. It was a fail safe to keep the motor from taking damage. I would imagine the v5 would have a similar thing.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-31-2013, 05:33 PM:

I think that's an occupational hazard of any large, vertical reel film transport system (tower or MUT). The weight of more than about 5-6k feet plus the spool itself is such that you need a lot of initial power to generate the momentum to get it going, which translates into enough power either to break the film (acetate), or cause perf damage against the bottom sprocket (polyester).

On the mercifully few occasions I had to stop a Westrex tower mid-show and restart it, I recall that it was an absolute pig to get going again. I remember one occasion in which some idiot lit a cigarette in the loo, about two hours in to Jackie Brown, thereby triggering a fire evacuation. It took me three attempts to restart the show, because the take-up motor was too slow to respond when the film started moving, and then suddenly pulled so hard that it pulled the film off the exit sprocket (DP-70).

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 12-31-2013, 05:52 PM:

I had a few occasions with my old Strong platter where I had to spin it by hand to get it started turning if I had two features on the same platter.

In fact, the payout motor failed on me once shortly after the start of a show so I stood beside the platter for the duration of that show and cranked it myself.

Later on I got a new, fancy Strong platter with automatic timing and all the trimmings and I never had any trouble with it at all that I can remember at this moment.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-01-2014, 10:59 AM:

IMHO platters are a fundamentally film-friendlier long play device than anything that involves a whole program of 10k feet plus on a vertically mounted spool. The film is not being stressed by the weight of a whole program's worth of footage at the start of the show, and stopping and re-starting mid-show is easier and less risky (of film damage), because the tension arm controlling the speed of the take-up plate (whether it's horizontal, as on the Kinoton ST-200, or vertical, as on the Cinemeccanica CNR) absorbs the initial 5-10 feet after a restart that would otherwise go slack as the motor driving the take-up plate comes up to speed.

About the only scenarios I can think of where a tower makes sense is if a booth simply doesn't have the floor space needed for a platter and MUT, and/or if assembled programs need to be moved around a building by a single projectionist regularly (which is quicker and easier to do with a tower spool than a platter roll).

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 01-12-2014, 02:40 PM:

HI
I think you might have problems using a std V5 lower clutch on the heavier 36" spools, even if you use easy-sided spools. The Cinemecannica towers used different drives to run the larger spools, via a mechanical torque limiter, plus they also had a dashpot on the feed. Even if you get the gear ratios right (it might help to pad out the centre of the spool with 1000' of film) you will have fun getting the takeup to run OK with both a full and empty 4000m spool, if it drives the full spool at all. We've got some old tower bits in stock - you are welcome to these if you want. BTW, slowing the projector run-up will help - most have 3 phase motors and can easily take an inverter.

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 01-12-2014, 04:20 PM:

Hi Peter, thanks very much for that, I might take you up on that. I think you are right , it may start off ok then struggle. The machine will be inverter driven in any case. What tower parts do you have ? Cheers, Jon

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 01-17-2014, 11:58 AM:

Hi Jon

We are about to throw out a Kinoton 5000m electric rewinder -ring us Monday if you want this (did someone say 24 cans of Stella ?) and we will hold on to it, likewise the B5000

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 01-26-2014, 03:06 PM:

Just in case anyone was interested the answer is, no you can't fit 36inch spools on a vic 5 !