quote: Steve Guttag

---

You show me someone that thinks Kinoton platters are inferior to the Christie and I'll show you someone that hasn't had to operator or service both for any significant amount of time.

---

Over 25 years here Steve. I'm sure there are others with similar or more time that will back up the AW3 over Kinoton.
 

---

Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 01-23-2014, 10:47 AM:
 
I agree with Steve on this one. In 12 years and 15 screens, we only had a handfull of issues with the ST200E, mainly motor brushes after 10 years or so, and they were easy to do. The early pay out modules were prone to stress fractures around the guide rollors. The later ones with the round grab handle were a lot more solid. It did'nt matter what the print was like - warped, stretched, crinkled, off centre - you name it, they would run perfectly with excellent tension. I am not sure about the AW3, but you do need to have a 'motor run' signal from the projector for them to work.
 

---

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-23-2014, 02:00 PM:
 
All Right Steve!

I knew you could not resist. I ran and serviced these years ago and they were wonderful machines with great film handling but they did have some issues that would shut down a screen and none too easy to fix.

One was 270 that was a combination 35/70 plstter and the 35mm film tension was so tight I could not remove the ring. This was easy enough to fix though.
 

---

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 01-23-2014, 02:22 PM:
 
Strong AP-3


 

---

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-23-2014, 02:30 PM:
 
Sadly the AP-3 will probably be able to be supported easily longer. Louis
 

---

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 01-23-2014, 02:47 PM:
 
I'm with Steve G.

Having worked on both Christie, Phillips/Kinoton and Strong over the last couple of decades the ST200 wins. The Strong is agricultural compared with the other 2. The AW3 wasn't a bad platter far from it. But we saw a lot of failed control cards and graunchy bearings.
The ST200 developed over the years into the ST200E, which is largely fit and forget. It's possible to fit a modern IR pay-out head on an old ST200 too.
 

---

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-23-2014, 08:52 PM:
 
I'm not classifying the ST200 and the ST200E together. Sam, was your incident with the ST200E?

Brad, in your 25 years of BOTH how many of those were with ST200Es? The AW3 is junk compared to the ST200E. The Christie AW series was always a knockoff of the Norelco/Kinoton. While Christie kept trying to fix their mistakes...Kinoton kept actually improving the design with respect to how it handled film itself.

Now I much prefer the last incarnation of Christie keepers and even their rollers...though the early ones sucked.

So again, how many years have your run the ST200E? Unlike the Christies, they were practically maintenance free.
 

---

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-23-2014, 09:39 PM:
 
Must be a slow news day, kind of like discussing the rivets on the Titanic.

Pete is right about Potts/Strong being agricultural. Don't forget though Germans tanks were overcome by simple American hardware built by some of these same manufacturers.

My ST200's were the older ones with the usual problems like the payout clock motor coupling shearing off leaving no way to adjust the autoformer that regulated payout speed. There was also the occasional sticky relay resulting in the take up platter autoformer shorting out. Not cheap.

There really were not enough Kinoton platters sold in this hemisphere in the last 20 years to make a real comparison as to reliability. Kinoton always makes awesome goods but I did not care for having software for a platter. A platter is a true analog device that is an inherently self regulating device. The projector asks for film and the platter pays it out. The projector spits film out the bottom and the platter spools it up; what could be simpler than that? Whay muck it up with a software interface?
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-24-2014, 01:06 AM:
 
Come back down to reality Steve. We miss the logic-inspired version of Steve.

Sam summed it up well. The Kinoton, while I will agree does handle film well, is WAY over-engineered. Over-engineering typically brings about failures. With Kinoton being a foreign company and film being all but dead, it would be my last choice for future-proofing. I would actually rather have a Strong platter over a Kinoton (and you know I dislike those), because in the US parts on the used market for Kinoton are rare, but still somewhat plentiful for Strongs due to a higher market saturation. Heck the ST200E hasn't even been around for very long to do a fair assessment of it's overall reliability.

That being said though, I don't think you will find a platter with more US market saturation than the classic AW3/AW3R. In the US there is simply no other platter easier to keep running given the state of the industry. And whether you agree with my opinion or not, it's the best damn platter ever made.

This is also why I would NOT want a Kinoton "E" machine. 5 years ago, sure. Now? Nope! The Kinoton "D" machines use a conventional intermittent, and even though their couplers are a plastic joke, the odds of that conventional intermittent still running 20 years down the road is FAR better than an electronic intermittent. This is also why people in the US are better off holding onto their Century and Simplex projectors as opposed to any other brand.

So even IF I actually agreed with you that the Kinoton platter was better than the Christie, it's all a moot point in 2014 anyway.
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2014, 09:12 AM:
 
Watch out every body! There goes Brad's new common this years statement. "It's a Moot Point Anyway in 20XX"...

Getting back to VPF's Brad and Cinedigm vs. GDC it's not really a moot point yet because South America is now just getting going on VPF's. And it appears that GDC pretty much has the hand hold down there. What happened to Cinedigm? Were they too expensive or something?

Mark
 

---

Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 01-24-2014, 10:02 AM:
 
Er,..I thought this thread was about platters? Anyway, if any body wants to know how good Kinoton "E" series platters are, ask us Europeans, we have been using them for years. The platter of choice.
 

---

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-24-2014, 10:18 AM:
 
We on Film Tech do tend to be USA centric forgetting we have lots of international members.

Makes sense Kinoton is top choice in Europe. For one, Cinemeccanica platters seemed to resemble our "agricultural" platters and Christie platters were not poupular except for US based chains building in UK and Europe.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-24-2014, 12:03 PM:
 
Mark, keep it on topic. Fabricate whatever bs you want about VPFs in a suitable thread.

Everyone seems to be missing the (not-made-quite-clear) question of Don's. Don is setting up a private system. It's not for theatrical use. Don is also a resident of the US. Don needs to know what platter is best for him. Since all used platters are essentially worth about nothing, price isn't the issue here. Availability of parts on this continent and overall known reliability for his choice along with film care is the real question. He just didn't make his question totally clear.
 

---

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-24-2014, 02:52 PM:
 
All kidding aside...

Kinoton is still manufactured.

No lie, Kinoton is far more reliable in terms of breakdowns and consumable parts. If I were to own a platter (the horror!) at home, it would be an ST200E. There is nothing to do to it but supply power.

Sam, as to platter design of the "E" versus the others. Why should the platter be just a reactionary device that always seems to be caught off guard when the projector starts or stops? Look at how an ST200E starts (or stops)...there is none of this...film wrapping about trying to catch up...overshooting...etc. Stop the projector, even mid-way through the show...it all stops as a team...and when you restart...it all starts as a team. Ever heard of a ST200E throwing film? Care to compare that to Christie or any others?
 

---

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 01-24-2014, 05:31 PM:
 
So I guess the 1st gen Autowind with the white formica decks I found at a salvage yard is right out am I correct?

(no I didn't buy it I have an AW3R)
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-24-2014, 08:28 PM:
 
Steve, an AW3 doesn't sit there and wrap film back and forth around the brain on startup like a Strong or a SPECO. I've never had issues with prints throwing. Yes the AW3 needs to be calibrated, but since when have you taken the lazy stance of "I'm just going to plug it in and walk away"? Spending a few minutes calibrating the AW3 and then it's awesome is no different than spending time tuning a sound system, aligning lenses, carefully cutting aperture plates, etc.

Sure Kinoton is still manufactured TODAY, but probably not for much longer. Still in the US it's just not the proper choice for a private screening room like Don's application.
 

---

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-25-2014, 03:23 AM:
 
I never had any Kinoton throw a print as the film was very well controlled. It's just an analog servo. Why add a software interface to something that doesn't really need it? Just to look high tech?
 

---

Posted by Allan Riddelll (Member # 5090) on 01-25-2014, 07:19 AM:
 
Agree with Tim. We have been using the ST200E for 14 years and apart from the occasional motor brush replacement and , just recently, replacement of a control board they have been the Rolls Royce of platters.
 

---

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 01-26-2014, 02:18 PM:
 
I have two AW3s in my two-screener and they perform flawlessly. And I get all the tech support I want from Christie (but not for much longer).
 

---

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 01-26-2014, 05:59 PM:
 
My personal favorite is the Strong AP-3, but lets be honest- I haven't handled anything other than nearly new AP3s and the 30+ year old never-been-maintained Speco LP-270s I am currently "working with"(AKA killing myself over). Oh, and the Big Sky platter tree I use strictly for build-up, and have never run a feature on. The one time I even tried to pay out from the big sky for Ss&Gs, the payout arm seems to do the opposite of what it should. Spins the deck in the arms stop position and vise versa. Cant use it like that....

With the E series Kinoton, I'm curious... If it needs a motor on signal, how do you thread? I'm sure there's something silly I don't know about it seeing how I've never touched one, was just curious. I have to say I like the idea of a less passive platter tree, but again, not that any of this matters in 2014.
 

---

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-26-2014, 07:29 PM:
 
We had looked at the AW3 and found it really good, but electrically complicated.

Our change was to run normally on startup, then digitally store the motor speed after 45 seconds. The motor then could not run faster than that. this number would be updated every 5 minutes until the end. Voltage at zero reset the system.

The advantage is that wraps could not increase the speed of the platter and would self clear. louis
 

---

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-26-2014, 07:46 PM:
 
So Louis,

I'm unclear. This was an idea you had or something actually implemented? I never heard of it, but I learn something new every day.
 

---

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-26-2014, 08:11 PM:
 
Hmm that sounds alot like the kinoton system with the motor driven autotransformer
 

---

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-26-2014, 09:10 PM:
 
Sam; it was to be a conversion on National Amusement AW3s. Sticking point was payment from Christie when they were to put it on new ones. Never developed, but did lab mockups; no need for wrap detector. Customer was headed toward 30 plexes with one or no operator. (Other features, too, but simplified here..) Louis
 

---

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 01-27-2014, 08:20 AM:
 
Our BIG SKY has been running for 7 years without a single problem.
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-27-2014, 04:13 PM:
 

quote: Louis Bornwasser

---

We had looked at the AW3 and found it really good, but electrically complicated.

---