Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Bummer, no DTS for Captain America 2

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Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 04-02-2014, 06:59 PM:

I just got my print of Captain America 2 (codename "Freezer Burn"). The boxes did not include DTS discs. Called Technicolor and they said not DTS discs are available for this feature.

I knew this day would come, but I wish it had waited until I did our conversion. Now I have to install and connect a BACP DSTR20 I have sitting around. I need to do this tonight to be ready for our 8PM on Thursday.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 04-02-2014, 08:40 PM:

Oh, it has been happening. I can't remember which one it was, but one of our last big features at Plaza didn't have it(Thor 2, Hunger Games 2, Hobbit 2, one of those) among a bunch of smaller titles.

*le sigh*

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-02-2014, 11:06 PM:

I'm not too surprised by this news. I wonder if some movies still getting DTS discs made for 35mm prints are getting them produced on CD-R rather than mass replicated CD-ROM.

How many 35mm release prints are still getting SDDS tracks included? Sony hasn't made any new SDDS readers or processors in over 10 years. I wonder how many theaters still running 35mm have SDDS systems that are running properly.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 04-03-2014, 12:31 AM:

@Davod, I think this is just Disney being cheap. I understand Technicolor told you that there is no discs, can you verify that the timecode is in fact not printed?

@Buck, I am surprised both Catching Fire and Hobbit 2 did not have DTS available, it sure is amazing that Warner will make a 70mm IMAX blow up for each but they won't make available DTS discs for the 35mm prints.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-03-2014, 01:41 AM:

I wonder how many of the 35mm screens left are running DTS sound. Can't be all that many.

Also, the presence of timecode doesn't necessarily mean there are disks. Sometimes the labs just default to print the timecode whether there is a disk order or not.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-03-2014, 06:52 AM:

Why would timecode be created in the first place if they are not going to make discs?

Posted by Kerry Fleming (Member # 1657) on 04-03-2014, 07:45 AM:

This has been happening for quite some time now. Time code or not. No disks being produced. Keep calling Technicolor. Sometimes they have them on a request basis. Can't cost that much to make them! The exhibitor's cost has not been reduced even though the print quality & amenities (DTS Disks) have been reduced. Wonder when they will remove the optical track?

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-03-2014, 10:08 AM:

Ken, I remember reading here in the past (I think it was a DTS employee actually) that sometimes timecode would be printed even if no discs were produced at the time of release to leave the option open for future creation of discs. DTS is (was?) used as a way to 'dub' a movie into another language without having to make all new prints.

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 04-03-2014, 10:42 AM:

quote: Dustin
DTS is (was?) used as a way to 'dub' a movie into another language without having to make all new prints.

That's just one of the things that was/is great about the whole DTS design. That wasn't its primary purpose, but a definite benefit.

And the ability to grab the timecode to automate lighting cues was fun. I have a special set of DMX lighting cues that play in sync with the DTS Sonic Landscape tag. Guess those days are over. [Frown]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-03-2014, 10:54 AM:

This goes back to the issue of replication and why I was asking if theaters were receiving mass produced CD-ROM discs or CD-R discs.

It doesn't make any sense from a cost standpoint to pay for having a CD stamper mold created unless you're going to have a replication run in thousands of discs. Most movies require a pair of DTS CD-ROM discs. These replication set up costs weren't such a big deal when movies were having 2500 or more 35mm prints ordered for a standard wide release. They're more difficult to justify for only a couple hundred or few dozen 35mm prints.

Mass CD-R duplication is another alternative. The process isn't as fast as CD replication, which could be a problem with some movies doing post production work up until days before the scheduled release. Turn around times will be critical. Which vendor do you use? How well can they be trusted with the data?

Does Datasat have any of its own in-house CD-R duplication capabilities? "Desktop" devices designed to reproduce a few CD-R discs at a time are relatively inexpensive, but it would take a long time to produce a couple hundred or so discs. Bigger mass duplication machines are available, but expensive.

Maybe this is another call to let theaters running 35mm prints with DTS/Datasat sound download the CD ISO files and burn their own discs (or copy onto the internal hard disc of a newer DTS/Datasat processor). It seems pretty stupid at this time to be playing 35mm movies in optical analog if it can be avoided.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 04-03-2014, 11:46 AM:

Terry, I just meant one of those didn't have the discs, not all three. I just can't remember which it was.

It came with a note in the box saying something like "Sorry for the inconvenience, but no DTS discs were created for this feature, go fuck yourself"

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 04-03-2014, 12:34 PM:

Lionsgate and Warner Bros. are both still licensing Datasat Digital Sound for their features - Catching Fire and Hobbit 2 both had discs available. It is true that Disney opted not to create discs for Captain America, though.

For small production runs Datasat will produce CD-R discs in house, but the threshold for doing a glass master is much lower than suggested above. It varies based on the schedule, but we'll usually do a glass master and production run for anything over 150 disc sets or so, which is still most titles these days.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 04-03-2014, 12:57 PM:

quote:
That's just one of the things that was/is great about the whole DTS design. That wasn't its primary purpose, but a definite benefit.

And the ability to grab the timecode to automate lighting cues was fun. I have a special set of DMX lighting cues that play in sync with the DTS Sonic Landscape tag. Guess those days are over. [Frown]

David, would be able to verify if there is timecode printed on the print?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-03-2014, 02:05 PM:

What surprises me more than missing DTS CDs is that there are still 35mm prints being made. I thought it was over.
Peabody&Sherman have been the last 35mm prints in germany.

- Carsten

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-03-2014, 02:21 PM:

No studio has said "it's over" yet except Paramount and even they have backtracked a bit. (That's the way it is in the U.S. at least... the situation could be different in other places.)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-03-2014, 03:32 PM:

quote: Dustin Mitchell
DTS is (was?) used as a way to 'dub' a movie into another language without having to make all new prints.

That can be a curse as well as a blessing.

Apologies in advance for the R-rated language in the following anecdote, but it loses something with censorship.

I was working in a DTS-equipped house in the mid-90s, which showed a sneak preview of Men in Black about a month before the UK release date. It was a promotion run by a chain of supermarkets, with people who'd earned so many loyalty card points being entered into a draw for the tickets.

The print arrived only about an half an hour before showtime: I didn't even have time to inspect it properly. I was checking the heads and tails and lacing up each reel of the changeover show while the previous one was running. I had the monitor speaker on, but with the noise of the projectors and the ventilation fans, I couldn't really hear the dialogue from the workbench.

About two minutes after a changeover, the phone rang. Duty manager: "Leo, can you check the sound? I think there could be a problem." Customer's voice heard, faintly in background: "They're all talking in fookin' wop language ... yeah, the film's gone all eyetie!" So I cranked up the monitor volume, and sure enough, the dialogue was in Italian.

To cut a long story short, the DTS had failed because of a nasty scratch right down the timecode, and we found out the hard way that the stereo variable area track on the print was of the Italian dub. The scratch affected reels 4-6, and so a previous cinema running it on 6K reels with a single changeover must have had an accident. For the last hour of the movie, the dialogue kept swapping between English and Italian.

It turned out that the distributor had imported that print at the last minute for the promotional preview screenings, and had checked in advance that all the places it was going to had DTS. There was a sheet of paper in the can of reel 1 telling us to run it in DTS only, not Dolby or the analog track, and furthermore suggesting that we switched our Dolby digital head and analog exciter lamps off for the duration of the screening. It didn't say why, but I found that out the hard way!

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-03-2014, 04:55 PM:

Yeah, I forgot to mention in my post that when I first read/heard about that particular 'perk' of DTS my first thought was 'DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!'.

For the record I always liked the sound of DTS, it was my favorite digital format; but just like Dolby and SDDS it's reliability was still subject to print wear (albeit it was more robust than Dolby and far far more robust than SDDS).

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 04-04-2014, 11:43 AM:

As an FYI, we have print 568, so there are a lot out there.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-10-2014, 01:15 AM:

Definitely shows that DCIP is doing their best to put the scare out there that film is on its way out, while the studios are still striking prints and not worrying about the end of film.

Prob, in a way, it's might have been more of a blessing for them to keep striking prints due to the lesser demand of prints that are needed.

Meanwhile, the digital owners are now facing a new kettle of problems related to a system that depends on a computer...and we all know how computers have their own mind at times.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 04-14-2014, 10:33 AM:

Sony used to operate a site www.sdds.com that only went offline late last year sometime. It maintained an active list of current and future titles that would have SDDS tracks. I remember looking at the list soon before the site finally died and it had titles listed going into 2014. The last snapshot of the title list at www.archive.org is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130701055758/http://www.sdds.com/

Also NT audio in Santa Monica can still shoot sdds tracks (along with everything else) http://www.ntaudio.com/services/optical-soundtrack.php

Posted by Steve Moore (Member # 4753) on 04-14-2014, 12:27 PM:

35mm, what's that? I've not had one here since June '13 (though I do know a few in the UK which have had the odd thing!)