Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: THX Cimarron original mix restoration

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Posted by Mark Friedrich (Member # 8263) on 06-18-2014, 04:35 PM:

I'm doing by best to restore the original trailer. I will make
v2.2 of the restoration.

That's because the ending isn't in the correct pitch on v2.1 as seen here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8kiqFnglsg

So now the job will be with myself with the force of
Connor Wilson.

(By the way, the Marcus Friedrich credited in the video is me.)

Thank you

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 06-18-2014, 05:09 PM:

Hi folks, I thought I'd chime in too.

It's really debatable judging from the micro cassette recording that surfaced around here about 3 years ago what exactly is going on in the audio. The descending synth tones and especially the wormhole 'sequence' are the most obvious as they are the loudest in the recording. What follows is what we believe is actually the symphonic version everyone is familiar with at a higher pitch, then a de-tuned Deep Note. The end is quiet in the micro cassette recording, so we cannot really tell. Marcus suggested it was wind sound effects from the Skywalker Sound library, I suggested it was the higher-pitched symphonic version ending.

I'm not that happy about v2.1 re watching it because the Deep Note climaxes too early. As well as a pop in the audio after the 'wormhole.' This is because I can no longer find the original audio for the wormhole I collected, but someone made a backup of it on Soundcloud, so I used that, and extended it with the micro cassette audio containing the second descending synth.

I have never seen this particular version of Cimarron in a theater, or an official DVD or video from THX or even Lucasfilm. Just a snippet of it from a Star Wars doc made for TV in time for the special editions.

Any suggestions from Film-Tech veterans who ran or saw this mix is highly welcomed. This restoration project birthed here anyway.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-18-2014, 05:54 PM:

That audio on the "restored 2.1" is not accurate at all. It never had the "deep note" people associate with the Broadway logo.

I've got a 70mm print of this somewhere. When it surfaces I will create a dedicated 5.1 from the 6 track mag.

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 06-18-2014, 05:57 PM:

Thanks for the feedback, Brad. I trust your judgement.

So can anyone describe the layout of the original mix? If there wasn't a Deep Note, what was in place of it? There's obviously a crescendo that rises.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-18-2014, 06:35 PM:

There is, but it's not deep and it's not particularly loud like the wormhole.

Posted by Mark Friedrich (Member # 8263) on 06-18-2014, 10:49 PM:

I will try to remake the audio for that final sequence without the deep note using Sony Vegas and FL Studio!!!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-19-2014, 08:50 AM:

One would think the people at THX (or Logitech, aren't they the company owners now?) would make at least some kind of professional restoration effort to make proper DCP and HD versions of these classic trailers.

Cimarron is one of my favorite THX trailers. The stems of the original Cimarron mix have to be in storage somewhere. The other, more commonly heard mix with all the James Horner like music was ported into Dolby Digital.

I think the few THX certified theaters left in service ought to be playing restored versions of the Cimarron and Grand trailers, in addition to the iconic Broadway trailer. They're a big part of THX branding. The Tex trailers are a little dated now (I think they're synonymous with the Toy Story movies). The Amazing Life THX trailer is kind of cool, but it just doesn't have the "in your face" impact of those classic trailers like Cimarron.

If fans are having to go to the trouble of trying to piece together some kind of restoration of a trailer like Cimarron it should be a very clear clue to the people at THX that they need to get their act together with regard to these trailers.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-19-2014, 12:36 PM:

I have requested DCP's of legacy trailers from THX and Dolby several times since 2010. For some reason, they're not interested in making them available.

Posted by Mark Friedrich (Member # 8263) on 06-20-2014, 12:20 AM:

Folks, now i've discovered that the noise at the end of the microcassette recording is not even wind SFX from Skywalker Sound, and not even high-pitched symphonic version ending.

In the original trailer the part that says
"The Audience is Listening. Lucasfilm Ltd. Sound System", that part is silent. Restoring what i thought now

Posted by Terry Monohan (Member # 8285) on 06-20-2014, 09:53 AM:

To bad most multiplex-o theatres today don't put on some sort of digital sound logo before the movie is shown. Some cinemas in the SF Bay Area will run the Dolby Atmos logo and It very impressive with the wrap around effect, above right left and back. I will never forget many years ago when I first heard the new Dolby Digital® in 5.1 at the El Capitain Theatre in Hollywood CA and they played the Dolby Digital train logo, the old theatre shook with very impressive deep base and first time used split surrounds. Many people in the audience looked around and ducked for cover. I have not heard the Auro system yet as we have no cinemas yet in SF with It. My friend Dale at Metropolitan/Corwin Theatres in Santa Barbara CA will be putting this new Barco Auro sound system in some select theatres in the area soon as they use Barco projectors. How does the Auro logo sound? Does It fill the room with 360 sound? We are waiting for the first 4-D theatre installation coming at the end of this year to the San Francisco area I hear. I don't think AMC, Cinemark or Regal will put this in one of their cinemas so It leaves some private single screen cinema in the Bay Area to put this hot new idea in and make money from all the tourists that visit. Rumor is Alan at Oakland's Grand Lake Theatre in Oakland may put It in or Paul at Cinelux Theatres in the San Jose/Santa Cruz area will have It soon in one cinema. Paul was the first guy to put in D Box in San Jose CA. Do they use their own stereo surround sound type system for 4-D?

Posted by Mark Friedrich (Member # 8263) on 06-21-2014, 02:39 PM:

I recreated the original Cimarron trailer's crescendo using audacity and a sound at the following site linked

THX Crescendo source

Later i will post the results of the crescendo

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 06-22-2014, 02:43 PM:

Restoration version 2.1.5 to tide you over. This was a more experimental revision than anything.

THX Cimarron v2.1.5

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-22-2014, 03:40 PM:

Nope, again that's not it. Trust me. The only thing that sounds pretty close is the wormhole sequence. I've ran this version hundreds of times.

I'm curious why you are even trying to do a "restoration" without any of the original elements?

I'll transfer the 70mm 6 track mag discretely whenever the trailer pops up. I've got it attached to one of my prints but I don't recall which one.

Posted by Mark Friedrich (Member # 8263) on 06-22-2014, 06:28 PM:

i even redid the ending part on FL Studio (i noticed that THX used minimoog for making the music at the end of the original mix)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_bKVi4T2woPTUhHdkF5TWM5bWs/edit?usp=sharing

Connor, My remake of the THX Wormhole (thats sounds very closest to the original) is here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_bKVi4T2woPN29OV0lnRlhpR2c/edit?usp=sharing

Next time use my wormhole. Put some echo in my wormhole.

Posted by Lionel Fouillen (Member # 1475) on 06-26-2014, 01:59 PM:

I think we'll have to wait for Brad's recording to get it right but so far, Connor's version is what comes closest. Again, sorry that my original recording was that bad, it was done in a cinema with a "voice" cassette tape recorder.

You also seem to forget an element: the DOLBY STEREO logo in the lower left corner of the picture appearing at the end (when the Lucasfilm copyright notice appears in the lower right corner). It's the classic DOLBY STEREO (A-type) logo on 70mm prints, and it's the DOLBY STEREO SR "Spectral Recording" logo on 35mm prints.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-26-2014, 04:46 PM:

To Mark & Connor, unless you're working with the original analog master "stem" recordings nothing is actually being restored. IMHO, manipulating a recording of playback in a movie theater or other stuff taken off YouTube or elsewhere is just an exercise in audio editing or maybe just a waste of time. That stuff is generations removed from original, master quality.

Brad might have the next best thing in that 70mm trailer, provided the Dolby A magnetic soundtrack is still in good shape. It can be used to source a multi-channel LPCM audio track. Encodes could be made in any number of Dolby Digital formats (it might be weird to encode it in DTS if the Dolby Stereo logo is shown in the image). One question I have: is the channel layout 4.2 or 5.1?

As far as any restoration effort goes, the tougher nut to crack is the video end of things. I have a non-anamorphic DVD .VOB trailer of it. But it looks like crap blown up on a HDTV screen. I'm doubtful anyone has good quality HD resolution versions of it. For DCP use in 2K or 4K a new film scan of the best elements available would be necessary. I suppose a 70mm print could be a useful source. Again, it's still going to be at least a generation or two removed from the master elements.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-26-2014, 04:55 PM:

FYI to Bobby, I've spoken to Lucasfilm about this before...they do NOT have the original elements or even a print of that version.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-27-2014, 08:34 AM:

That really sucks. And it shows just how whacked the priorities are for some people when it comes to protecting the assets that make up their intellectual property.
[Roll Eyes]

If the THX people don't have a print of that version of Cimarron then it makes your copy immensely more valuable. I'd certainly love to hear a real 5.1 or 4.2 multi-channel version of it. At the same time, I wouldn't play it for just anyone due to the wear and tear risks.

Maybe we could get Robert Harris to do a digital restoration of it.
[Razz]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-27-2014, 05:32 PM:

If all you're doing is duplicating, you're not "restoring" anything. You're just preserving it.

The real question is: Just what exactly do you intend to do with the finished product? There are easier ways to waste time and end up in prison.

Posted by Mark Friedrich (Member # 8263) on 06-28-2014, 04:12 PM:

RESTORATION CANCELLED

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 07-04-2014, 09:44 AM:

This version is the only version of Cimarron I know of. I've seen it on 35mm, and the audio does not differ from what is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U938c_Zx16s

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2014, 10:35 AM:

Play it again Mike. The audio difference is huge.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 07-04-2014, 11:02 AM:

Huh. My brain must be playing recollection tricks on me. Saw it in theaters in the early 2000s and didn't notice.

We need this version on DCP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIbtk0XwNIU

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 07-04-2014, 11:45 AM:

Y'all gonna make me play my THX WOW reel -- doesn't "Cimarron" appear at the end of that?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2014, 12:56 PM:

Yes, the commonly found audio mix like Mike posted is at the end of the Wow reel.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 07-04-2014, 02:48 PM:

Ah. Then I don't know what "other" version y'all are talkin' bout.

Posted by Andrew Maddison (Member # 4499) on 07-19-2014, 03:30 PM:

I think we still have our 70mm copy of Cimarron... will have to have a look in all the boxes of things to find it! However I don't know what state it is in.

Posted by Mike Blasko (Member # 3968) on 07-21-2014, 12:42 PM:

Yes. It's on the WOW laserdisc for sure (actually sounds great if I remember correctly), so I assume it's the same on the 35mm version ?

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 12-12-2014, 08:38 PM:

Thought I'd bump this since I found an eBay listing for a 70mm Cimarron. It ended on Nov. 7 and went for $77. I believe it's worth more than the seller knew, if only he/she ran it through a 70mm Dolby mag system.

70mm Cimarron on eBay

Any thoughts about contacting the winner about this preservation project? Someone found one before Brad did, and we'd all love to hear the 6-track Dolby soundtrack. Maybe, if possible, an HD scan of the print.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-12-2014, 09:24 PM:

Most 70mm prints did NOT have the original mix. Only a few were made. Odds are the eBay listing was nothing special.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-13-2014, 03:15 PM:

quote:
We need this version on DCP: [URL= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIbtk0XwNIU [/URL]

Where were these scans taken from? There is more weave in all directions than any of the worst high speed prints that were sent out in the last years of film. If this is what it looks like on a five inch screen, what did it look like on a 50 footer?