Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Reel to Reel Install

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Posted by Andy Jenkin (Member # 8332) on 07-14-2014, 01:03 PM:

Hi all,

Long time lurker here and finally I have a specific question (or more likely a few questions) I haven't been able to find answers to.

So, I'm installing 2 x Kinoton FP30-D projectors into a brand new small rep. cinema, and I need help connecting the rectifiers (Irem N3-X75DM) to the lamphouses. I've tested the three phase power on the input terminals of the rectifier and all three are active, but with just the thick red and black cables connected to the lamphouse terminals, the lamp will not strike. What is the simplest way of hooking them up (i.e. no auto-strike or remote on switch) to get the lamp to strike with the manual strike button on the lamphouse so I can check they are doing their job? The small on/off switch just above the terminal panel on the rectifier is not wired up.

Second small issue is that currently projector A will only run continuously if I keep the FWD START button pushed, as soon as I let go it stops.

These are lovely projectors in excellent condition and I can't wait to get them up and running. Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Andy

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-14-2014, 02:51 PM:

The lamphouse requires probably in your case 220v for the fans and ignitor

Posted by Andy Jenkin (Member # 8332) on 07-14-2014, 02:57 PM:

Thanks Gordon. The power for these seems to come in via a multi-core from the projector tower. With the lamphouse on, if I push the igniter button I hear it trying to strike the lamp (but it can't), and the fans turn on also via this connection.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-14-2014, 03:28 PM:

Is the contactor in the rectifier pulling in?

Posted by Andy Jenkin (Member # 8332) on 07-14-2014, 05:03 PM:

I'm sorry I'm afraid I don't know what you mean, could you explain?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 07-14-2014, 05:12 PM:

We're Kinoton dealers for the UK and Ireland Andy.

The rectifier needs to see closed contact across its remote control terminals to put power on the contactor (relay) coil. The contactor switches the high current mains to the rectifier proper. You could use a simple toggle switch, but it's better to have the projector control them as it can shut the lamp off should one of the interlocks open for whatever reason.

On FP30Ds of most flavours the lamphouse and ignitor are powered from the projector, there's usually a pair of terminals in the base for controlling the rectifier. Where those are will depend on the vintage of FP30D and if there's any factory automation fitted. (It used to be a bit on an in joke that you never saw two Phillips/Kinotons identical, there's that many variations).

About the machine that will not keep running. The earlier centrifugal type film break switches were notoriously flaky, best replaced with the modern IR type. It could be expecting a closed contact from a platter, or it could have on board automation that is not letting it run. (Especially if ex Cineworld)

Posted by Alastair Bowlie-Evans (Member # 8327) on 07-16-2014, 12:03 PM:

Often there's a safety-circuit consisting of a microswitch and a cooling-fan switch in the lamphouse.
These would connect to the rec remote circuit, (Which operates on the main contactor relay) as a safety feature--no fan operation, no lamp power, lamphouse door open, same...

As has been said, the strike/igniter device will need its own mains supply.

Nice to see an Installation of 35mm--instead of the usual Extractions!

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 07-16-2014, 12:42 PM:

quote: Andy Jenkin
projector A will only run continuously if I keep the FWD START button pushed, as soon as I let go it stops.

There is a film break sensor in either the last roller or guide post the film passes over before it goes
to the take-up reel.

I've never really examined this fail safe device on the machines I have in one of the screening
rooms I work at, but I beleive they operate using some sort of light-sensing technology.
(The film either blocks or reflects light, I'm not sure which, to indicate its' presence)

Try running projector "B" <WITHOUT> film. Does it exhibit the same symptoms?
(Having to hold the FWD START button pushed to keep it running)

If so, then try putting your finger over the holes in that last guide post. The projector should
now run as if it had film in it.

If the #1 machine doesn't behave the same way, then perhaps one of the cables or connectors from
the fail-safe sensor is not pushed in all the way at either the sensor or circuit board end
or else maybe you've got an actual problem with the fail-safe sensor, relay or logic board.

What Pete said in his post is also true. One of your machines might be 'looking' for an extrnal
contact closure. The FP-30's in the booth I'm at can be run as 2-machine changover, or we can
also use a 12kft tower. We rarely use the tower, but when we do use it, I know that if we
put the #1machine in the "tower mode" and the tower isn't turned on, the machine will shut down
unless you hold the START button in. So it apparantly needs some sort of signal or contact closure
from the big-reel-tower to work in that mode.

Fortunately, you've got two machines there, so if one is working you can compare wiring and
even swap parts with the non working machine if necessary to try & troubleshoot what's wrong.
If I recall, those machines are pretty modular, which should make swapping assemblies easy.

Unfortunately, I've never been able to find a circuit diagram for the FP-30's. I'm going to be
over at that screening room later today to drop off some stuff for a big film festival
happening at that location this weekend, so I'll take a look at my projectors & see if I
can come up with any other ideas 4U.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-16-2014, 01:38 PM:

quote: Pete Naples
It could be expecting a closed contact from a platter...

That was certainly the case in one place I worked in the early '90s. It had a pair of FP20s plus an ST200 platter, to enable both single-projector and changeover shows. Which projector "talked" to the platter was selected by a switch on the platter's control unit, and with the two connected, the projector would not run unless the platter was set to run mode (or you kept your finger on the start button). For a changeover show we'd have to cheat it by using some rope to hold the platter's take-up tension arm in the retracted position. I made the usual beginner's mistake of failing to do this on one show, pressing the button on the motor cue and then panicking when nothing happened.

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 07-16-2014, 02:33 PM:

As Alistair said , if you're using a Kinoton lamphouse there is a micro switch which prevents the lamp striking if the side panel isn't properly seated. Caught us out recently at a festival . Where is your cinema?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-19-2014, 01:45 PM:

Wow, two DP-30s...sweet. I hope you are also installing a DCI digital projector as well because, as someone who is going out of the rep programming operation, I can tell you, there is very VERY little film to run and it's getting worse every day. We don't have DCI compliant digital projector yet, and we simply can't find enough good prints to run a full program any more.

There are fewer and fewer titles that we would want to run that are still available on film, not to mention the constant bickering with distribs who are not interested in supplying prints that won't bring them "big" bucks. And how many times can a rep house run LAWRENCE OF ARABIA and CASABLANCA? And how many times can one apologize to an audience for a crummy film print presentation?

At some point we just had to draw a line and say, we won't put that kind of a degraded picture on the screen anymore. And we won't run optical discs. A film-only cinema is becomming a very, very hard row to hoe, even for a rep house.

Get thyself a DCI digital projector, Andy! For a small screen, you can get an "all-in-one' compact DCI unit at a much lower inital cost than what the big ones go for. We can't even do that as our screen is too big.

Posted by Andy Jenkin (Member # 8332) on 07-21-2014, 12:58 PM:

Firstly thanks for all the responses, such a helpful resource is Film-Tech!

Regarding the closed contact across the rectifier's remote control switch, can this simply be jumpered across for manual operation (i.e. for using the manual strike on the lamphouse)? It would perhaps at least tell me whether the rectifier and lamphouse are working as they should for now, and I can figure out the proper remote circuit later on.

The projectors do have a film presence sensor between the last two rollers, which when wrapped with a bit of tape should be fooled enough, so there must be something else at play here. There is a large remote operation switch panel, which when plugged in makes the projector do the opposite, i.e. it runs and won't stop until you turn it off (it overrides all the front panel buttons). We don't plan on using this however.

There does seem to be a few too many variables with them for me to have got my head around it all, but I will have to keep playing around until I can get them to work.

Could anyone send me a workshop manual? I can only find the first half of it posted anywhere online, would be a great help!

@Jonathan Wood, it's just off Brick Lane in London.

@Frank Angel, it's a unique decision for sure at a time like this, but the audience is incredibly discerning and we will be running mainly archive prints (hence reel-to-reel) as part of frequently changing retrospectives and seasons, artist/film-maker seasons etc (there's 16mm too). We are also fitting a second-hand DCI compliant digital projector and server, though they expect it will mainly be for private hires, as most of the films programmed are not available digitally.

We'll see how it goes! Thanks again, and I'm sure I'll be back soon with more questions.

Andy

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 07-21-2014, 03:29 PM:

Andy-
I just found a complete set of manuals for the Kinoton projectors, 1200ft reel
tower & Kinoton's automation system stashed in a file cabinet at at one of the screening
rooms I work at. I could probably scan them and e-mail them to you, but it's going to
take a couple of days since I'm very busy working a big film festival thru next
weekend. I want to scan them so I have a reference copy for myself too, but I'd be
happy to e-mail you copies if that would help you.

But it might take me a couple of days, possibly till next weekend before I can get to it.

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 07-22-2014, 03:45 PM:

Hi Andy, PM me I have some manuals for you
Jon

Posted by Andy Jenkin (Member # 8332) on 07-25-2014, 04:29 PM:

Hi Jon, just sent you a PM. Jim, thanks a lot for your trouble but it looks like you can hold fire on the scanning front!

Thanks to you both!

Posted by Andy Jenkin (Member # 8332) on 09-02-2014, 02:35 PM:

Quick update on these issues.

First issue - neither projector will run without finger held on Fwd Start button
I'm sure this is something simple, like two connections on the main connection strip need to be jumpered. Projector B had 10 and 11 jumpered already, and I tried this on Proj A to no avail. I then noticed the manual shows 10 jumpered with 13 (and this is also true with the FP30-Es at another cinema), but again I tried this and no change.

Second issue - cannot get Irem N3 rectifier to power up
I've connected the three phase input and tested each phase are active on input, and I've connected the red and black cables to their connections in the lamp house. The lamp house is connected via the 7-core cable through to the projector base (connections 15-20 & 23 as earth). I've tried jumpering the connection marked as S2 on the Irem, which I'd hoped would act as a permanent on switch, but this didn't work. I also tried making this connection using connections 21 and 22 in the projector base, but that again didn't work.

If any of these issues sound familiar and you can offer any further assistance I'd be very grateful! I do now have a copy of the FP30-D manual, which is helpful.

Thanks again,

Andy

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 09-04-2014, 02:33 AM:

Hi Andy

I had a similar problem , but ended up removing all the kinoton gubbins (mother board / inverter) and replacing it with another more easily controlled inverter and my own control loom - using simple locking push buttons. Works fine. But if you need changeover then this won't work for you. I think you're right , you just need to short two terminals together. It's worth searching this topic as I seem to remember it coming up in the past.

My best advice though, especially since you are a commercial venture is give either of the service companies a call. I think Sound Associates or Future Projections are your closest. I'm sure there's someone still there who could help. I know it will cost you but it's probably best in the long run in my opinion.
[Smile]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-04-2014, 05:53 PM:

Agreed completely, and if it were me I'd call Future Projections as a first step: I worked with them in England in the '90s and early '00s, and Peter Hall did a lot of refurb-ing of older Kinotons, very successfully. That's not to say that SA couldn't help, but as I recall they were primarily a Cinemeccanica main dealer. Peter's focus was on bringing older equipment back into dependable, revenue earning service, which it sounds to me is what you're trying to do here.

I'm in the same position with the prospect of installing a DCP server in a booth that currently doesn't have one (that auditorium is only used for film and BD shows at the moment), with a festival deadline looming. Given sufficient time to mess around and troubleshoot we could probably install it ourselves, but we don't have that time, and in situations like that my experience is that it's well worth the expense of getting a contractor in who specialises in doing that one job: it avoids stress, and buys you the certainty that the thing will work when you need it to.