Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Projector Switch Dead

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Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 07-16-2014, 03:01 PM:

I am not running film right now so my Simplex 35 has been idle for awhile. But when I went to test it the other day it would not start. I checked the fuse in the control panel, the wiring to the soundhead motor and the circuit breakers. Everything appeared OK. Everything else in the control panel works including the switch for the exciter. I'm at a loss to figure it out. Got any ideas?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-16-2014, 03:17 PM:

Convert to dijjital!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-16-2014, 06:12 PM:

What is the "control panel"? Some sort of automation system? A custom job? Something else?

So, the motor doesn't even turn or make any sort of noise when you flip the switch? If you have no buzzing or anything, that sounds like an electrical problem. You checked the fuses, so it's not that. Bad switch? You could try replacing it if it is a standard type. Or, if you have a voltmeter, you could see if you can measure 120VAC at the switch and, if you do, then measure the voltage at the motor. It is highly unlikely that you would be getting 120VAC to the motor if it is not making any noise at all. If you are, then you have a motor problem and it needs to go to a motor shop for repair.

Does the switch control the motor directly, or does it operate a relay that starts the motor? If the latter, it could be a bad relay (some relays can be safely operated by hand, so you could try that).

I am assuming here that you have some knowledge of electricity and electrical safety. If not, you might need to call an electrician. It is probably a simple issue.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 07-16-2014, 06:21 PM:

(edit) Was writing while Scott was posting. What he said...
---------------------------

Sounds like a job for Occams Razor. You say you have a full 110v measured power at the motor when the switch is on?

Uncouple and disconnect the motor. Then feed 110v straight to it from the wall. If it doesn't turn, it's on that side. If it does turn, the problem is on the other side. Maybe a frozen gear? Sudden shaft misalignment caused by those cursed aliens in the dead of night?

What happens if the cap on the motor goes poof? I really don't know.

Just a few simplistic thoughts.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 07-16-2014, 07:13 PM:

It's a Xetron Automation control panel but it's not set for automation. The projector motor switch is a toggle switch and makes no sound when it is turned to the on position. Nothing has been done to the panel since we stopped running film except to turn it off. The switch controls the motor directly. I will probably call an electrician Scott.

I'd love to go digital Mark but right now I don't even have the money to rent films.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-16-2014, 11:47 PM:

..and with VPF deals all dried up, it's all up to the owners to find funds for such a purchase.

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 07-17-2014, 02:21 AM:

Is there a manual inching knob, have you tried turning it to see if it kick starts it ? This might indicate whether it's a mech problem. Also if the start/run cap is dead then (someone more knowledgable than me please correct me,) wouldn't manually turning the motor start it? As my understanding is a 3ph motor will run off a single phase, with reduced efficiency, but won't start on one. ?

Posted by Alastair Bowlie-Evans (Member # 8327) on 07-17-2014, 07:53 AM:

Sounds to me like the motor switch itself--through lack of use--has internally seized up!
--IF it doesn't make its usual sharp click when operated, sure sign of this happening.

I had a shed light-switch that would do this now and again usually on a cold night, a squirt of WD-40 cured it....

As to a failed motor start/run cap failing the motor would just sit there--and hum.
On turning its shaft smartly (usually the inch-knob on the motor shaft) they'll then run up to speed and run all day--Until turned off of course, then the same again from rest.....

Had a BTH 1/4HP motor in a Kalee where the start-cap had gone, it was a week before I got hold of a replacement, but we didn't lose any shows....
Got one at a local appliance repairs place--That Kalee motor was the same used in Hotpoint Twin-Tub washers!

My Kinoton has a similar arrangement, although with that its a motor Run cap, so no cap cut-out arrangement like used in the Start cap type, again same applies.....

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-17-2014, 01:47 PM:

I would think you might have a start switch bad inside the motor, is 120 v present on motor terminals?

Alternatively there is one recent Xetron automation that has the switches wired to a long terminal strip and the that has another terminal strip connected to the loads. If these are slightly unplugged or worse yet, burned (usually only the motor terminals) then neither the manual or automation will work.

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 07-17-2014, 02:29 PM:

Is there a manual inching knob, have you tried turning it to see if it kick starts it ? This might indicate whether it's a mech problem. Also if the start/run cap is dead then (someone more knowledgable than me please correct me,) wouldn't manually turning the motor start it? As my understanding is a 3ph motor will run off a single phase, with reduced efficiency, but won't start on one. ?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-17-2014, 07:55 PM:

Motors that won't self-start will generally (always?) buzz, though, when powered on and until they are started by hand (or power is switched off). This one (evidently) does not do that.

My money is on it being the switch or the wiring issue that Louis mentioned. It could probably be fixed in a few minutes by trading some movie passes to the local electrician.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-17-2014, 08:30 PM:

It's been a while now but one thought I had was to see if the "Interlink" button had been toggled.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 07-18-2014, 03:14 AM:

I've checked everything I can think of and done everything I can except kick it and I don't have any electrical meters. So I guess I'll call an electrician. Thanks guys. I'll let you know what he finds.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 07-18-2014, 07:16 AM:

You really should have a meter or at the very least a test light. Harbor Freight has digital meters for just a few bucks and sometimes for as little as $1.99. Though not lab grade by a long shot they will give fairly accurate readings.

No Harbor Freight? No problem. I could pick up one and ship it to you for cost.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 07-18-2014, 02:38 PM:

Please do Rick. POB 963 Checotah, OK 74426.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 07-18-2014, 05:03 PM:

I'll go over there the first of next week.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-18-2014, 07:58 PM:

I gotta say something here.

There is no need to send Robert a meter. There are Ace hardware and similar stores everywhere with cheap meters and testers. Robert needs to enlist some local resources if he's ever going to succeed. There are local techs in his area but for one reason or another Robert has not enlisted them.

Now I am something of an agnostic, but there is an expression "God takes care of those that help themselves". Here we have techs from both sides of the pond all trying to help with no direct knowledge of how easy US made projectors are to diagnose and fix being "agricultural" in nature as someone pointed out a while back.

Every problem Robert has experienced since he opened this place have been simple mechanical problems anyone working in this industry has to deal with from noisy rollers, scratching film, misaligned lateral guides, droopy dousers, etc.

Maybe, just maybe this is why film is going away.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 07-18-2014, 10:07 PM:

Our Harbor Freight Store gives this model out as a free gift with their coupon. I think it is their $7.00 model. I have a Couple;They are quite Accurate.I usually just use them for Checking Battery Voltage but they will give you accurate Ohm reading also...

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 07-19-2014, 01:48 AM:

Hey Sam! I guess I never told you I found my film scratching problem. It was a roller on the fail safe. Since the fail safe wasn't even hooked up I removed it. End of problem.

Posted by Alastair Bowlie-Evans (Member # 8327) on 07-20-2014, 12:30 PM:

Robert--

Did you sort that non-running motor problem?

Sam,--In relation to what you say.....

Some guys--Just are NOT technical in any way. Where you or I may look at some device, whether a Plasma TV, Washing-Machine--Or Cinema Projector and the fault will stick out like a sore-thumb, others can be staring Right AT the problem,-- and not ever see it!
Guess I'm pretty lucky in that respect, having interest in things technical and having made a living from the likes of electronics/TV repairs, car-mechanics--And cinema projection work/maintenance, Great at that sort of stuff, But building-work, house decoration, you're looking at a one-man Laurel and Hardy!

--Me with house decoration, I would rather pay, have it done right!...

No offence intended--Maybe Robert isn't very Technical

I do wonder,--IF this is the case--Why the help of a more local Technician of the Cinematic or even just Electrical type hasn't been consulted......
Often cheaper in the long-run to get someone who knows about such things to just take a peek, The offer of a couple of Beer-Tokens works wonders!

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 07-20-2014, 01:33 PM:

Thank you Alastair. No I am not technical. That's why I will be calling an electrician before we run film in that auditorium again.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 07-20-2014, 05:46 PM:

There are many people who can't comprehend what they read from a Repair Book /Manual,or assembling something; But if they watch it on a Video CD/DVD;then it is actually something they can accomplish quite easily. I'm all for Mfgers including an instructional CD/DVD with their product. It would probably save them half of the Customer Service Calls they get from people who
have trouble with ordinary Manuals included with the Product.

Also; now that U-Tube is here you can find hundreds of Videos showing repairs and Part Changes on about any type Appliance
Product out there. I've seen a Video on a complete disassembly/Assemble of an E7 Simplex. So I'm sure people have uploaded Videos related to other 16/35mm Projectors and their Problems and Fixes...

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 07-22-2014, 05:01 PM:

Robert: check for a PM. Rick