Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Brenkert projector oil

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Posted by Jim Billek (Member # 1492) on 08-15-2014, 05:53 PM:

I am still running film in a few locations and have Brenkert projectors. I have tried my normal channels to find oil, but not able to. Does anyone have any "laying around" that they would sell me?

Posted by Bob Ezra (Member # 841) on 08-15-2014, 05:58 PM:

Dexron automatic transmission fluid works great

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2014, 06:11 PM:

While I know people,seem to think ATF is the cats meow I'll say... no no no no no no! Do not use ATF! It will quickly destroy the seals and rubber gaskets. Been through that with Pro-35's and my old boss. He ruined almost every Pro-35 out there by switching them over to Dexron ATF. And there is nothing worse than having ATF get down in your sound reproducer and then all over the film.
Search out the correct oil, not over 10 weight, preferably lighter than that and non detergent no additives. Try a bearing supply place, farm supply. It's not hard to get. Or try contacting Louis Bornwasser through Film-Tech. He may still have some in stock.

Keep in mind two things.. Automatic transmissions didn't exist when the projector was designed and the star and cam in there are not hardened steel and depend on the cushion of oil to prevent wear.

Mark

Posted by Jim Billek (Member # 1492) on 08-15-2014, 06:21 PM:

Thanks Mark--I wasn't sure if Louis had any inventory left--I will message him. And thank you both for quick reply's

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-15-2014, 07:59 PM:

When I bought my Eastman in 68 I used Kodak's Intermittent Oil and it wasn't that Cheap. After I became friends with Bob Beaman who was a Bigshot in The Professional/Commercial MP/TV marketing division of Kodak. He told me to save my Money and buy SINGER Sewing Machine Oil for the intermittent. Not only was it more than half the price;I think it was the same oil Kodak was selling me.(same coloring and smell) Anyway that's what I have used in the Projector since around the early 70's. I change it out about every 100hrs or so just for piece of mine.I have had no issues/problems using this oil all these decades [thumbsup]

Posted by Bob Ezra (Member # 841) on 08-15-2014, 09:38 PM:

used ATF for the last 6 of the 27 years I ran a BX60 on the advice of a Brenkert genius.

just sayin'

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 08-15-2014, 10:30 PM:

I too would stay away from ATF the high detergent base alone would not be healthy for metal on metal surfaces. I have some NOS cans of Brenkert oil (Wolk) but it really is just ISO-32 WF (wax or parafin free) oil. Approx it's SAE 10W oil. The most common use is for turbines and refrigeration use. You can buy it at any good lubricant jobber. Texaco Capella WF-32, Chevron Turbine oil 32, etc. Not very expensive either! Simplex oil was basically ISO-22 or 5-7W These oils are superior as they leave no residue or wax build up like most conventional motor oils and they contain no harmful detergent agents or solvents. They do have a quite good life if kept clean too. Just my 2 cents worth!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2014, 11:30 PM:

Bob, If that Brenkert genius happened to be from Salt Lake City he's the same one that ruined all the PRO-35's.

Posted by Bob Ezra (Member # 841) on 08-16-2014, 12:44 AM:

Tijeras NM

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-16-2014, 01:12 AM:

Chevy Turbo 350 and 400 Trans have lots of Rubber O-Rings,Seals. How come DEXRON II never ate them up...

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-16-2014, 02:37 AM:

Heard from a source that 10w hydraulic oil is good also...but don't quote me.

Heard even wilder stories that 10w non detergent motor oil was used in many XL heads without any problems.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-16-2014, 09:55 AM:

Steve, I've owned several GM cars with those very tranny's and they did drip a little. There are rubber seals and O rings that are made to work with that sort of lube, the typical rubber parts found in projectors are not.

Bob Ezra... There was an indoor twin theater out west of Dekalb, IL that I used to service and the guy put ATF in his Simplex X-L's and it ruined them. I had to rebuild both projectors and the intermittent's.

Mark

Posted by Robert Koch (Member # 3728) on 08-16-2014, 01:39 PM:

Always used Texaco Capella A on all projectors. On Brenkerts that always drove so tough, I`d add a small amount of Marvel Mystery Oil.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-16-2014, 06:12 PM:

I think we had this oil discussion a couple of times before. I've used ATF in Century's int's and they worked for years with no problems. Also BX100's, same result. They leaked more or less the same as before. My thought was ATF does not foam, and there is no wax so it would seem to protect ordinary parts just fine. Can't say it worked any better or worse but it certainly did not cause a projector to fail. Did not damage the fiber gears or eat the seals. Any oil that can withstand the strain of tight tolerances, high heat and the labyrinth of a valve body or the blades of a torque convertor ought to be a able to handle a star and cam with no problem. The only
real issue is the viscosity IMHO.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Bob, If that Brenkert genius happened to be from Salt Lake City he's the same one that ruined all the PRO-35's.

They were not ruined, it was a mercy killing. LOL

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-16-2014, 09:36 PM:

When I was Racing back in the 60's;BSA B34 Competition GOLDSTAR'S Came from the Factory with a non-integrated BERMAN 4 Speed Gear Box.They always had 90W SAE Gear lube in them and the Factory Service and Customer Manual emphasized using 90W. We started running ATF in these Gearbox's as well as the A65 Unit Twins(with no coolers) and never had a single Gearbox failure Ever.We also probably gained about 2 or 3 HP in the GS's simply going from the super thick 90 lube to the lighter viscosity ATF... Modern ATF(like DEXRON 3)can handle tremendous heat temperatures w/o breakdown. As long as you maintain that protective film barrier between metal surfaces that's what its all about...

Mark: If you had leaky Turbo Trannys it was probably the Pan needing Tightning/Torquing. The O-Rings and Seals in them are Standard Neoprene seals that have been around for decades and are completely compatable with ATF and almost any other type oil...

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 08-17-2014, 02:12 PM:

ATF will not ruin seals. If you have a problem with more leaks after switching to it, it's only because the high detergent base has cleaned out a pre-existing but possibly clogged with gunk leak with already bad seals.

There are a number of manual transmissions in cars(Read: gears) that even call for ATF.

Dexron VI is the best on the market

I hadn't heard of using ATF in projectors, but it is certainly worth a shot and I would try it myself. Having heard of this, I'll likely use it to re-start my Prevost P-55s after sitting for a decade. Would work great to de-gel them. That said, I'm not sure I'd leave such a thin, high detergent fluid in a projector on an extended long-term basis, unless the projector sounds very happy with it.

Millions of dollars have been invested in engineering certain ATF like Dex 6. Very high quality lubricant.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-17-2014, 10:43 PM:

This is unrelated to Projector Oils but since we are talking about BRENKERT;This info from Bob Sprague was rather interesting to BRENKERT Buffs. BRENKERT Projector heads supposedly cost more than the Competition but he points out that the 2 Largest Theaters in Chicago "THE UPTOWN"(4500seats) and "THE CHICAGO THEATER(4100seats) both used BRENKERT Equipment. Wait a minute this is MOTIOGRAPH,DEVRY Territory;what is this DETROIT Guy doing on our Turf. [Confused]

Also BRENKERT had thought about MFGing Soundheads,but never did.After 1938 All BRENKERT Equipment was sold only through RCA Theater Supply Dealers...

RCA 200 Projectors(1953) are CENTURY C Mechanisms...

RCA ARC-LAMPS-"BRITE-ARC","LINE-ARC","HY-ARC" and "DYN-ARC" sold in 1953-54 were made by ASHCRAFT...

RCA "STANDARD LINE" Projector and Soundhead in 1954-55 were made by WENZEL...

RCA "ALL AMERICAN" Picture & Sound from 1955-56 were made by SETTLES...

And something that even surprised me...Some CENTURY Built VISTAVISION(8-per Fram)Horizontal Projectors were retrofitted to use BRENKERT Intermittents in place of Official CENTURY Intermittents...

I thought you should all know about this [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Jim Billek (Member # 1492) on 08-17-2014, 10:49 PM:

I do appreciate all the info. Since the thread did sort of move into Brenkert history, If I am not breaking rules too badly. Instead of starting a new thread I am wondering if Brenkert intermittents are interchangeable between models.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-18-2014, 01:38 AM:

Yes Jim; The BX80 BX60 BX40 and RCA100(BX100)All use the same
intermittent. P.N.X-3107(complete intermittent assembly) I looked
in all 4 different Model Manuals I have. It must have been a well
designed Unit to carry it over through the whole Brenkert Line from 1939(BX80)to the BX100(1950) [beer]

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-18-2014, 12:50 PM:

quote: Buck Wilson
There are a number of manual transmissions in cars(Read: gears) that even call for ATF.

Well it never called for it or recommended anything but gear lube but the BORG WARNER SUPER T-1O 4Speed in that old Vette of mine on the "What Car do you Drive" thread had DEXRON 2 in it. After I put the Hotrodded BB in;I wanted a faster shifting Transmission. When those gears are in a Fluid where their not being dragged down from overly thick lubrication;Its like a whole new Tranny. It shifted like a Modern day non-linkage TREMEC and I never had any heat issues or part failures even at 7000rpm shift points

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 08-19-2014, 01:25 AM:

Know that from experience as well, but in not nearly as cool of a car.(Ford Festiva)

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-19-2014, 02:56 AM:

HEY BUCK; I just bought the DVD "PAPER MOON" Ryan & Tatum O'Neal. Watched The Version with Bogdonovich doing the Commentary. He said a lot of those Street Scenes were shot in St Joseph. Back in the 80's I bought CLASS B FIREWORKS from a Distributor named SCHNEIDER'S FIREWORKS(PYROTECHNICS) Wonder if their still Going... [beer]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-19-2014, 10:34 AM:

quote: Buck Wilson
ATF will not ruin seals. If you have a problem with more leaks after switching to it, it's only because the high detergent base has cleaned out a pre-existing but possibly clogged with gunk leak with already bad seals.

Normally. I would agree except in the case of all the leaky Pro-35's several of them had been overhauled with brand new o rings and seals. These projectors did not leak a drop running oil the first several months. After "he" switched them over to Dexron it wasn't more than a couple months before the leaks ensued. A few were so bad they had to oil dry and mop the floor regularly. Projectors are designed for non detergent lubes. While Dexron is fine for transmissions it is not fine for a projector. All the Pro 35's finally had to be pulled out of service just because the amount of leakage was so bad.

Mark

Posted by Ed Inman (Member # 2583) on 08-19-2014, 05:29 PM:

Since the name brand projector oils are being discontinued, what do you folks think about MOBIL VELOCITE SPINDLE OIL? I see it readily available on ebay and Amazon. Is it suitable as an intermittent or general projector lubrication oil? Also, should I use #10 or #6 (or does it matter)? thanks--Ed

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-19-2014, 07:27 PM:

8509(1997)
Product Data Sheet

Mobil Velocite Oil Numbered Series

High Speed Spindle and Hydraulic Oils
Product Description

The Mobil Velocite Oils are a range of high quality light viscosity lubricants for high speed machine tool
spindles and hydraulic applications.

Mobil Velocite Oil No. 3 is made from a light petroleum solvent refined mineral oil and an oxidation inhibitor.

Mobil Velocite Oil No. 6 and No. 10 are made from light viscosity solvent refined mineral oils, oxidation
inhibitors and a rust inhibitor and a defoamant. Some anti-wear protection is also provided.

Benefits
The Mobil Velocite Oils offer the following benefits:
• Protection against wear
• Good hydraulic performance
• Resistant to oxidation and degradation products
• Protection against rust and corrosion
• Low spindle wear
• Maintained high precision
• Minimum scrap and off-sized components
• Long trouble-free life
Applications

The Mobil Velocite Oils are recommended for lubricating high speed machine tool spindles.

Mobil Velocite Oil No. 3 is recommended for the ‘zero clearance’ type of spindle bearing which operates with
extremely close clearances - which may be no more that 0.0001" per inch of arbor diameter.

The majority of sleeve type spindle bearings have greater clearances and for these Mobil Velocite Oil No. 4,
No. 6 and No. 10 are recommended. Choice of viscosity depends upon relationship between clearance and
spindle speed. High speed and close clearance require Mobil Velocite Oil No. 4 - slower speed and wider
clearance require Mobil Velocite Oil No. 10
Mobil Velocite Oil No. 3 is also recommended for use in EDM applications where its low viscosity and electrical
characteristics, together with resistance to degradation, make it an ideal cooling and flushing medium.

Mobil Velocite Oil No. 6 and No. 10 are also suitable for use in hydraulic systems that do not require ‘anti-wear’
oils.

8509(1997)
Properties
All these oils contain oxidation inhibiting materials enabling them to resist the production of deposits and
degradation materials under the high speed - extremely thin film - oxidation prone conditions under which they
work.

In addition Mobil Velocite Oil No. 6 and No. 10 contain a rust inhibitor making them suitable for intricate and
critical hydraulic systems requiring a light oil. Both have excellent chemical stability, resistance to oxidation and
formation of degradation products and contain a defoamant. They have a high viscosity index and separate
readily from water.

Health and Safety
Based on available toxicological information, it has been determined that this product poses no significant
health risk when used and handled properly.
Details on handling, as well as health and safety information, can be found in the Material Safety Data Bulletin
which can be obtained through Mobil Oil Company Ltd., by telephoning 01372 22 2000.

Typical physical characteristics are given in the table. These are intended as a guide to industry and are not
necessarily manufacturing or marketing specifications.
Product Characteristics
Mobil Velocite Oil No. 3 No. 4 No. 6 No. 10
ISO Viscosity Grade 2 5 10 22
Viscosity, cSt at 40°C 2.0/2.4 4.8 10.0 22.0
Viscosity, cSt at 100°C - 1.63 2.6 4.1
Viscosity Index - - 95 95
Flash Point, °C COC 76 114 154 174
Pour Point , °C -30 -24 -30 -27

probably as good as anything out there. I'm sure it won't damage an intermittent...

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-20-2014, 01:02 AM:

Mobil Velocite Oil No. 3 is recommended for the ‘zero clearance’ type of spindle bearing which operates with
extremely close clearances - which may be no more that 0.0001" per inch of arbor diameter.

Since an Intermittent is a precision piece and its components
are generally machined to 1/10thousands of an inch tolerances. Perhaps the #3 lube would be a good choice...

Posted by Ed Inman (Member # 2583) on 08-20-2014, 08:36 AM:

I have a bottle of the #10. In terms of viscosity it appears to be as light weight (or perhaps lighter) than my old bottle of Lavezzi Intermittent Oil. Pours pretty much like water with no resistance at all.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-20-2014, 11:28 AM:

You guys are probably not going to like this, but...

A friend of mine ran non-detergent 30-weight, purchased at the local gas station, in his Century C intermittents for over 60 years. When those projectors were taken out for digital, they were still among the most stable I've seen.

You can imagine what he'd say about an intermittent oil debate.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-20-2014, 11:32 AM:

Not suprising that he had no issues the original Simplex/Century oil was No 20 non detergent

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-20-2014, 11:58 AM:

I think this oil issue is overkill. An intermittent is not even turning close to 2000rpm; so the heat issue compared to say parts in an automotive engine turning 3 times that speed is negligible.All were trying to do here is maintain a thin protective film barrier between metal surfaces.I doubt any of the oils/products mentioned on this thread are going to hurt/damage that intermittent as long as this protective barrier is maintained. Neoprene Seals,O-Rings,have been around forever and ATF,PETROLEUM OIL,ETC. should have no effect on them as far as deterioration,Shrinking,etc.

The people that are complaining most about using another product instead of OEM oil that came in the Projector/intermittent are only worried about the Loss in sales they will incur because the customer found another cheaper alternative that works just as well...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-20-2014, 12:13 PM:

It isn't JUST about maintaining a thin film and or cushion of oil It is about not allowing a build up of crud, about the oil not becoming acidic and or turn rancid too quickly, it's also about not leaving a coating of varnish on the parts. Regular oil is ok for projectors in my book.

However, there are definite advantages of synthetics over regular oil. Take the Christie Ultramittent for example. It is filled with about 4 to 5 ounces of LaVezzi synthetic oil which also contains suspended ptfe. That oil is in the intermittent for the life of that intermittent. I've rebuilt 15 year old Ultramittents where that oil was still remarkably clean and clear. There IS no particle magnet inside an Ultramittent to collect the minute loose metal particles... had there been they may have had an almost unlimited life span. Fifteen years is a long time for an intermittent that's running on a platter... LaVezzi rated their brand new intermittent's for an average of 7 years use running on a platter system using the recommended plain old projector oil. The best advantage of using synthetic is it has a much wider temperature range before it becomes either thicker in cold temps or thinner at high temps. So for that reason alone Synthetic oil is a clear advantage in a hot running projector.

We also ran LaVezzi oil exclusively in DP-70. This allowed doing a yearly oil change instead of the normal 500 hour change. Phillips included particle magnets in two location in the DP-70... inside the intermittent and another magnet inside the oil pump gauze filter itself. If you run the recommended oil in a DP-70 that used to come from Kinoton there was quite a bit of metal particulate on that oil pump magnet at 500 hours. If you ran them with the synthetic stuff there was almost no metal particulate to clean off after an entire year. The intermittent magnet was not accessible for cleaning without first tearing the movement down.

As to the weight of the lubricant required... That all depends on the metallurgy of the components being lubricated, the circulating system capabilities if there is one and the operating temperature of the equipment. In the case of the guy running SAE 30 oil in his drive in Century's they no doubt ran hot after a short while as many drive in projectors do. That SAE 30 oil when heated flows more like SAE 10 weight does.

Mark

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-20-2014, 01:48 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
Century oil was No 20 non detergent

Didn't know that. Makes sense then.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
In the case of the guy running SAE 30 oil in his drive in Century's they no doubt ran hot after a short while as many drive in projectors do. That SAE 30 oil when heated flows more like SAE 10 weight does.

Don't know that it's any more a big deal, but this was an indoor. It ran for many years as a changeover house and its last 15 or so as a single-machine platter booth.

Come to think of it, you're right though. That guy had a set of Wenzels at his drive-in, replaced later by a Century SA. Same oil was used in those machines, too.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-20-2014, 03:48 PM:

Well, that kind of oil gets warm it gets thinner... It's just how it is.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-20-2014, 08:03 PM:

1. I hired the oil engineers at Chevron's old HQ in Louisville to take a fresh look at oil in Century and XL intermittents and to consider new technologies. They ended up with OC 30 Jet Engine turbine oil, not that we needed a tight spec oil, but it was available in 5 and 55 gallon put ups. It is 10 weight, non detergent.

2. Nick Mulone's dad in Pittsburgh once asked for guidance on what oil to use in his old Century c's. He had been using 30 weight, non detergent from 1948 and never lost an intermittent. I told him to change nothing; it is not broke.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2014, 07:00 PM:

Louis...

Aero Shell 308 is the current synthetic equivalent of the Aero Shell Number 3 which is mineral based and does have an anti corrosion additive... a good thing for projectors. Today, Shell number three is only used in very specific older jet engines any more.

Mark