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Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 11-07-2014, 02:40 PM:
 
So i get the projectionist letter asking that Interstellar be run at fader 7.

We normally run around 4.5-5.0 depending on film.

Out of curiosity, I ran the first 20 and last 40 minutes of Intersellar at fader 7. Holy moly, it was overwhelming. I understand what they're trying to do (sensory overload), but I couldn't imagine sitting through two hours and forty minutes of this. You'd feel as though you just came from a heavy metal rock concert.

Running at a 6 is bearable, but if I go much lower some of the dialog gets lost.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 11-07-2014, 02:58 PM:
 
I mean, heavy metal rock concerts do turn me on.

No, but seriously. It's no different than any other letter accompanying a film asking the same thing. In an ideal room (and probably one with a full audience), it would sound good with the fader at 7. But in rooms with poor acoustics and/or poor tuning, there's just no way. It's common at many theaters to run most films around 5-6, and this is no exceptionk.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-07-2014, 03:22 PM:
 
wrong thread please ignore
 

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Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 11-07-2014, 03:25 PM:
 
A properly equipped and calibrated theater should be able to run the movie at fader level 7 with no problems. My guess is that the theater is set up wrong if you are running film at 4.0 or 5.0
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-07-2014, 03:40 PM:
 
Terry very few theatres would run at 7 if they did the average patron would complain that it was far to loud
If you ever were in a mixing theatre you would find the level uncomfortable
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-07-2014, 04:44 PM:
 
As someone who has had to run world premiers at 7.0 (and any other studio screening) where the rooms where set up, not only properly, but to the studio's liking...they are WAY TOO Effin loud! I swear those guys have to be partially deaf by listing to such loud sounds all day long. I've had people bang on the booth door to turn it down while the studio guy insisted on leaving it where it was and though it sounded awesome.

There is no doubt that, with lower THD, one can definitely run things louder with less ear strain. Distortion can be quite grating, if not painful. So there is definite truth in the statement of a well set up room (good acoustics with good speakers) will be able to play louder with less discomfort than one that is lesser. However, loud is loud and these guys like it too loud, in my opinion. An exception is Larry Blake...I can run his films at 7.0 in most theatres without complaint (he mixed Oceans 11, as well as the others and many other). He doesn't get the dialog lost in the mix either.

What I'm hearing from my people on Interstellar is that you can run your fader at its normal volume to get the dialog...but the effects will just be painfully nasty. Nothing like having people wanting it to end to appreciate your masterpiece.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-07-2014, 05:54 PM:
 
I always ignore those requests to run a movie at a particular fader setting.

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens

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A properly equipped and calibrated theater should be able to run the movie at fader level 7 with no problems. My guess is that the theater is set up wrong if you are running film at 4.0 or 5.0

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quote: Manny Knowles

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The judgment call is usually based on dialogue but, sometimes, M&E force a compromise.

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quote: Steve Guttag

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As someone who has had to run world premiers at 7.0 (and any other studio screening) where the rooms where set up, not only properly, but to the studio's liking...they are WAY TOO Effin loud! I swear those guys have to be partially deaf by listing to such loud sounds all day long. I've had people bang on the booth door to turn it down while the studio guy insisted on leaving it where it was and though it sounded awesome.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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That is precisely - word for word - what happened to me yesterday.

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Me too- - and again today.

I'm head projectionguy at (yet another) film festival this weekend here in SF.

The venue it's being held at was 'tuned' by Dolby several months ago.
It was THX re-certified less than 30 days ago.

We spent quite a bit of time doing tech & level checks for each show earlier this week.

But both yesterday & today I had film-makers show up and the first thing they said to me
was "I want you to play MY film at (such & such) volume " level.

First guy had me keep raising the volume at the beginning of his film. Way past our 'usual' level.

A few minutes later, the floor staff started getting complaints that it was 'way too friggin' loud"

So the film-maker had me start lowering the volume. Guess what- - we wound up EXACTLY
back at the level setting we had started out with & that I had determined was the best level
during the darn tech-check three days ago. Gimmieabreak!

>I get a good laugh out of some of those "projectionist letters" More than one has said
"be sure to set your volume to 7db"

Yea, right.....
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-09-2014, 06:21 PM:
 
Doable on a QSC DCP, or Sony DFP-D2000-3000! So laugh it up fuzzball!
 

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Posted by Lonny Jennings (Member # 365) on 11-09-2014, 10:47 PM:
 
It's almost 2015, are we still discussing where the fader should be? This subject was old 30 years ago. It's simple: 85dBc at 7 on the fader is never going to work. They have, do and always will mix movies too damn loud to keep the fader at this level for any rational, non-hearing impaired customer. Anyone who thinks this is correct is either misinformed, not experienced in exhibition, or thinks that turning up the level will somehow correct for a terrible movie (can anyone say; “deluded Hollywood director”?). I'm calling "Interstellar" "Backdraft 2". Those of you who've been in the biz long enough may remember that the 1991 Ron Howard pict was infamous in its time for excessive M&E's on L&R and/or insufficient dialogue level on the center channel (and you thought this was a modern problem?). Dolby & THX always had this unrealistic notion that the fader in the theatre is somehow locked in place and not subject to the preferences of the movie-going public via the projectionist. The customers are the people who ultimately pay our (and Dolby's and THX) salary.

If it's too loud for the customers then screw whoever wrote the “letter” telling you to leave the fader at 7 and set it where the level is comfortable and agreeable for most of the audience.

While I do believe that customer complaints will predominately consist of those who think it's too loud (how many times have you heard a customer asking to turn it up?) you have to go with the will of the end-user and usually this will mean turning it down.

Years ago they used to run movies on Friday nights for the employees at Dolby in the superb screening room in the San Francisco headquarters. Of course, company mantra dictated that the fader be set to 7 on the CP200. One week they ran a 35mm Dolby Digital print of “Evita”. Despite requests to turn it down they ran the whole show at 7. The result? Some Dolby employees walked out of a free, company provided screening of a just released, major motion picture. It was that loud and uncomfortable! It added new meaning to the concept of “tone deaf”.

Generally, most systems in the field are set up somewhere close to the 85dBc standard so this isn't the primary reason for the turning it down. As stated in an earlier post, it's a problem with the people mixing on the dubbing stage. At the turn of the century Dolby finally woke up and tried to address the loudness problem by introducing a product designed specifically for the dubbing stage; the Model 737 Soundtrack Loudness Meter:

http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/DOLBYMODEL737.pdf.

This unit was inserted into the feeds of the DS10 or DMU recorder. When properly calibrated it had a simple two digit display that read the level of the sound in the recording. It was somewhat more complicated than a normal SPL reading as this meter was an Leq (m) meter. This would take into account the frequency range of the signal as well as the amount of time at any level; in other words, it measured the “annoyance” level! Instead of trying to change all of the dubbing practices at once Dolby started small and tried to standardize the use of the 737 for mixing trailers and advertizements:

http://www.sawa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/sound_in_cinema.pdf

It was hoped that this would ease the use of the Model 737 and the concept of the Leq (m) reading into the Hollywood conscience and then, later down the road, get it into the work-flow of the dubbing stages producing the soundtracks for feature films. It didn't quite happen. There was some progress with the levels on trailers (not much) but, it never went anywhere for feature soundtrack recording. So, here we are in 2014 and the movies are still too damn loud! Maybe at the turn of the next century.....

In the meantime we're stuck with movies recorded too loud and the best (and correct) thing to do is just turn down the fader until it sounds comfortable. It isn't a question of what's technically correct; it's what the customers want that matters!
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-09-2014, 11:30 PM:
 
Amen to the above.

I still can't figure out, though, why volume levels that have Dolby's workforce fleeing from their theater in agony and regular theater customers demanding a refund are insisted upon by Hollywood A-list directors for gala screenings of their movies.

My only guess at an explanation is that they only actually watch movies (both their own and others) in the Bel Air circuit private screening rooms, where they tend to crank the volume up to nightclub-like levels, and rarely if ever do so in regular screenings in public theaters, the projectionists at which set their fader levels, as you point out, to settings that their regular customers feel comfortable with.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-10-2014, 12:21 AM:
 
I believe the reason is actually more simple than that. I attribute it mostly to be nervous.

Run something at a medium fader level. Now notch it up/down 1db. You will notice that (assuming you don't have a lousy sound system) the slightly louder version sounds better. You don't need to and you shouldn't do this test at ear-splitting levels to see what I mean.

Over the course of mixing they tend to keep adding, not subtracting. When something blows up and a particular sound gets lost in the cacophony, they say "turn that sound effect up", not "turn all of that explosion noise down so I can hear that sound effect". Basically, it's always up, up, up.

By screening time it is well embedded in their heads that "louder is better", and for anyone that HAS shot a film and done a sound mix you will agree that indeed when it actually rolls for the audience, the nervousness DOES make them want to make it just a tiny bit better, and the feeling that is happening is usually by turning up the volume to "make it a little bit more impressive".

The problem is, take away the director/producer/sound mixer's stress and it's just too damn loud.

On a similar but different note though, certain speakers ARE harder to listen to at louder levels due to peaks in the high end (over 2KHz and usually around 4-6KHz). The slope of the X curve and the smoothness of that really is critical. Boosting frequencies there is a no no. Cut, don't boost. Let it be slightly not-perfect. The fader when it's all said and done will run closer to 7 without complaints. (And if you can do the EQ via parametric, all the better.)
 

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Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 11-13-2014, 04:08 PM:
 
Brad is exactly right. Everything gets cranked up and up and up. Also the nerves of the director wanting to turn up the volume seems about right.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-15-2014, 05:35 AM:
 
My opinion is that the meaning of those letters is more like "we spent so much money and time doing the sound, PLEASE do not turn it down to 3.5 because you can't be bothered"

I constantly see cinemas running films at 4 (and I mean VERY SOFT, like a TV at home) because they can't be bothered to have an argument with the local elderly when they decide to show up at the cinema after having been at the cinema for 20+years.

Run it at 5.0 and everybody will be happy, no matter what.

Then, of course you have to consider that one auditorium may sound loud and harsh at 5.5 for umpteen reasons. But I feel that that is not the point.

The point it "it's a sci-fi movie, run it loud". But they cannot put it that way, so they set a number, so the average projectionist running it at 3.5 may decide to run it at 4.5 for the occasion
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-15-2014, 07:00 AM:
 
Have always lowered the 85 db to 80 db. Keeps arguments down some.

That being said, you START at "7." Then you use your good judgment to make an appropriate reduction if needed. The audience NEVER sets the volume; that is why they pay professional staff. The Captain never allows the passengers to run the ship.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-15-2014, 07:11 AM:
 
5dB seems a little excessive to me. Your 7 becomes 4.3.

I used to start at 6.5 and then judge over the screening if it needed to be turned up or down.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-15-2014, 11:14 AM:
 

quote: Marco Giustini

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I constantly see cinemas running films at 4 (and I mean VERY SOFT, like a TV at home) because they can't be bothered to have an argument with the local elderly when they decide to show up at the cinema after having been at the cinema for 20+years.

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The filmmakers can blame their own stupid marketing guys. Its because the TRAILERS are so damned loud. (Yes some of that is compression, but perceived loud is still loud.)

If they wouldn't make the trailers so loud, the features COULD be played louder. Customers get turned off during the pre-movie when they think "oh this is a little loud for me, I'm going to go complain since I won't miss any of the movie".

I still run my sites at 4 for previews (surrounds and subs off) and approximately 7 for feature. (There is an auto-ramping control that looks at percentages of tickets sold and sets it typically around 6.5-7.5, so for the purpose of this discussion I say feature at 7). On occasion a site will play as high as 4.5 for trailers. The complaints GO AWAY on all accounts and everyone is happy.

Screenvision has gotten REALLY bad too. If you set their content at an acceptable volume, when a commercial plays the hair falls out of your head it's so damned loud. Solution? Set the level for the commercials. Sure their content becomes almost impossible to hear, but that's their fault. I've been over it and over it with them.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-15-2014, 01:27 PM:
 
Brad,
When 35mm was on, we were blaming the lack of automation.
Now that (almost) every digital system has volume cues, those cinemas still run films at 4.0.

I call it laziness or they simply can't be bothered.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-15-2014, 02:38 PM:
 
Either of your two scenarios are still laziness.

I agree, it is pathetic and there is no excuse.
 

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Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 11-15-2014, 04:45 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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I still run my sites at 4 for previews (surrounds and subs off) and approximately 7 for feature. (There is an auto-ramping control that looks at percentages of tickets sold and sets it typically around 6.5-7.5, so for the purpose of this discussion I say feature at 7). On occasion a site will play as high as 4.5 for trailers. The complaints GO AWAY on all accounts and everyone is happy.

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Brad, your ingenuity and showmanship astounds and inspires me(and surely others) daily!!

When I win the lottery, you're building me my dream theater and I'm just going to give you a blank check and let you let your imagination run wild!
 

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 11-15-2014, 06:40 PM:
 

quote:

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Movie Theater on 'Interstellar' Sound Complaints: Take It Up With Christopher Nolan

A multiplex in upstate New York put up signs notifying customers that its equipment is not the issue

The Cinemark Tinseltown USA and Imax in Rochester, New York, has a message for customers having trouble understanding the dialogue in Christopher Nolan's Interstellar: Take it up with the director.

After receiving numerous complaints, the multiplex put up signs informing Interstellar ticket buyers of the following: "Please note that all of our sound equipment is functioning properly. Christopher Nolan mixed the soundtrack with an emphasis on the music. This is how it is intended to sound."

Moviegoer Jay Shooke tweeted an image of the sign on Nov. 12 to Hollywood Elsewhere's Jeffrey Wells.

No one at the Cinemark Tinseltown could comment on the record per corporate policy, but one person told THR that the complaints didn't stem from the Imax showings of Interstellar, but only from those customers viewing the space epic in traditional digital screenings.

The signs were put up at Cinemark Tinseltown without the knowledge of Cinemark headquarters. A Cinemark corporate spokesman told The Hollywood Reporter that there were no issues with the film itself, and that the location instead experienced technical issues due to a hard-drive problem that have since been resolved. The signs were taken down earlier on Thursday.

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quote:

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View image on Twitter
Jay Shooke @JShooke
Follow

Hey @wellshwood this is taped up all over the box office. People are obviously complaining

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quote:

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the location instead experienced technical issues due to a hard-drive problem

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Why is it the elderly are always the first to complain about the sound being too loud? Shouldn't their hearing have deteriorated to the point where they want it louder (like in the THX Simpson's snipe)?

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quote: Marco Giustini

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5dB seems a little excessive to me. Your 7 becomes 4.3.

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Nope...-5dB is like lowering your fader to "5.5" from 7.0. "4.3" would be about -9.2dB...give or take...depending on how the person did the conversion between analog and digital on their fader. There is normally a "hinge point" around the equivalent of 4.0

See QSC? Using the dB scale just isn't intuitive for most people. The dB scale should be reserved for single-turn pots and sliders...things were you have a visual reference to where you are in the range or for calibration settings...not for normal user controls.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-16-2014, 05:53 AM:
 
Thanks Steve,

I knew I was mistaken!
Well, 5dB sound still excessive to me!
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 11-16-2014, 09:00 AM:
 
Meanwhile, Chris Nolan explains his sound choices:
Hollywood Reporter
 

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Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 11-16-2014, 10:55 AM:
 
"Christopher Nolan Breaks Silence On Interstellar Sound"
(Hollywood Reporter)

Christopher Nolan finally address complaints about Interstellar sound mix:
HERE

Unfortunately- - I'm at an airport on a crummy hand-held device and a
bad wi-fi connection so posting the whole article is not possible for me
to do here at this time.

Perhaps someone else can do that. Sorry!
 

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Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 11-16-2014, 11:34 AM:
 
I don't know why people are getting their panties all up in a knot. Perhaps these people are just watching the movie is poorly equipped theaters.

The sound was fine for the screenings that I attended which included IMAX 70, IMAX-D, and the 70MM DTS version. The 70MM-DTS version sounded best, probably because it was in a THX auditorium.

I think the sound mix was deliberate on the part of Christopher Nolan, heck people are still talking about a movie that did not open at #1 in the first weekend and it is now holding up pretty well in the second weekend even though it has dropped to #3. Any publicity at this point is a good thing. And the fact that Nolan has said he was experimental in the sound mix just helps make people want to find out why everyone is talking about the sound.

A big factor is going to be the auditorium design, equipment, and calibration. A good THX theater should have no problem reproducing sound at the fader lever 7 as long as it was not recorded at a higher volume.

As for the Cinemark sign, if it is true that the sign originated from Cinemark Tinseltown Rochester, well I have been there many times over the years and aside from the purpose standalone built IMAX auditorium, the individual auditorium design is pretty poor and I wouldn't expect very good sound equipment or speakers at this location. I bet some 20 year old relief manager was on Twitter and saw some of the complaints and thought it would be cool to put up a sign.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-16-2014, 12:46 PM:
 

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens

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I think the sound mix was deliberate on the part of Christopher Nolan

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quote: Brad Miller

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I still run my sites at 4 for previews (surrounds and subs off) and approximately 7 for feature. (There is an auto-ramping control that looks at percentages of tickets sold and sets it typically around 6.5-7.5, so for the purpose of this discussion I say feature at 7). On occasion a site will play as high as 4.5 for trailers. The complaints GO AWAY on all accounts and everyone is happy.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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What would be my ideal solution - and I've never seen this actually done, though I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be possible - would be an automatic volume control system based on a microphone hung from the ceiling in the auditorium.

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Not uncommon, particularly in fast food restaurants. Though a bit of of fashion these days. The Symetrix Model 371 was the box of choice, though its long been discontinued, and isn't even in the legacy products section of the Symetrix website. Today you could assemble such processing functions using any configurable audio processor like a Soundweb.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-17-2014, 12:07 PM:
 
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/20378/20141117/christopher-nolan-addresses-sound-issues-in-interstellar.htm

Christopher Nolan Addresses Sound Issues In 'Interstellar'

It seems that Christopher Nolan's hit film has one major problem: a horrible sound mix. At least that's what film fans are saying as they flock in droves to see the movie.

However, Nolan recently addressed those issues by stating that the sound was exactly the way he intended. Yes, he meant for parts of dialogue to get lost under music and sound effects.

"Many of the filmmakers I've admired over the years have used sound in bold and adventurous ways," says Nolan. "I don't agree with the idea that you can only achieve clarity through dialogue."

Movie goers all over the world, though, disagree and theaters across the world are reporting customers complaining about the sound mix with the film. In particular, IMAX theaters are seeing the most complaints. In Rochester, New York, one theater even put a sign up outside, noting that the sound issues were not the fault of the theater's, but instead, placed blame directly on Nolan.

That theater was correct: Nolan is to blame, and he states his choices in drowning out dialogue in particular scenes was deliberate.

"The theaters I have been at have been doing a terrific job in terms of presenting the film in the way I intended," says Nolan. "Broadly speaking, there is no question when you mix a film in an unconventional way as this, you're bound to catch some people off guard, but hopefully people can appreciate the experience for what it's intended to be."

Unfortunately, what is unconventional to Nolan is mostly annoying to most film fans who struggle making out the dialogue in the film. Maybe we're just not ready for such "creative" choices.

Nolan is no stranger to sound issues in film. When we first heard Tom Hardy's Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, the voice was so muddled that most people could not understand the character's lines. That dialogue was then re-recorded, but even in the final version of the film, many film goers still complained that the character's lines were difficult to hear.

If you're an Interstellar fan, though, there's hope yet. If you need a few visits to the theater to make out the dialogue you missed the first time around, you can now see the movie all you want for anywhere from $15 to $30. Paramount and AMC Theatres are offering an unlimited ticket for Interstellar viewings, the first of its kind. However, you need to act now, because only a limited number of those tickets are available.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-17-2014, 03:59 PM:
 
I think the thing Christopher Nolan is missing, is that HE knows what dialogue is not important to the story and can thus be drowned out without losing anything....but the AUDIENCE DOES NOT KNOW. Therefore you have people sitting there straining to hear, and asking their neighbor "what did he say?" because they don't want to miss important plot points. People just rightly assume that they're going to be able to hear what's said in a movie.

Typical case of a director being pompous and assuming he is above his audience, I guess.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-17-2014, 04:02 PM:
 
Well it's actually just like song lyrics. Sometimes I can't tell what a song lyric is, but if I look it up then whenever I hear the song again it's obvious to me what is what they are saying...but only because I knew what the lyric was.

I see this as no different. Nolan knew the line of dialogue and was busy trying to make the rest of the sound as realistic as possible and simply drowned it out, but it didn't seem drowned out to him at the time because he knew what the line of dialogue was. That's my take.

Interestingly Inception had a little bit of an issue with this on the opening scene, but after that there were no more issues, and overall (post-opening scene) that was a fantastic sound mix.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-17-2014, 04:38 PM:
 
good point Brad,
once you know what they say, you can't miss it, even though it's almost inaudible.

but after all I like all this "what did they say" saga. Once you know it was intentional, I find it fun!
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-17-2014, 05:30 PM:
 
It's one thing for a director to say a certain passage of dialog is meant to be unintelligible out of creative intent. The key is doing it in a manner where the audience will understand why, typically for some kind of dramatic effect. Steven Spielberg loves to have scenes in his movies where 2 or more people are talking over each other. Characters whisper things to each other leaving the audience wondering what was said (hey, it might be important). Sometimes the director will even bleep out something like a character's name and then reveal it later on. Ultimately the audio editing choice needs to make at least some sense by the time the movie is finished and all its plot points have been revealed.

I didn't really see anything in Interstellar that made it necessary for the dialog to be drowned out by sound effects or the music score. I shrugged it off thinking it probably wasn't necessary to fully understand what the characters said.

Science fiction movies are sometimes seem bigger and better in scale when things are explained LESS. A bunch of trivial dialog can slow down the pace and even make the movie stupid. For example, "the force" in Star Wars seemed a whole lot more powerful and mysterious in the original trilogy than it did in those prequels (where it sounded like young Anakin Skywalker had an amazing level of swimming pool chemicals in his body).


Nevertheless, a bad mix is a bad mix. And too damned loud is too damned loud.

Does any of the software in d-cinema servers allow one to set loudness levels for each specific program on the timeline or play list? I like movie trailers that have surround effects. However, I really dislike movie trailers that are mixed too freaking loud. In recent years I've grown pretty tired of movie trailers for all their same-ness, worn out clichés and spoilers.

Are the same people mixing sound for movie trailers doing audio work for TV networks? I mean, holy shit, do the people helming master control have no clue about volume levels? The commercial breaks are a LOT louder than the program on some networks, such as FX. I have to be Johnny on the spot with the mute button when the show goes to break. This is one of the reasons why I'm doing most of my TV series watching via Amazon Prime or Netflix (if it isn't on HBO). Cable TV commercial breaks are often very lengthy and some of those networks love spamming ads across the screen (even with sound) during the program you're trying to watch. My girlfriend and I finally got caught up watching Sons of Anarchy. We watched the first 6 seasons on Netflix or Amazon Prime. No commercial breaks and everything run at a fairly consistent volume level. We moved on to the first 10 episodes of SOA Season 7, recorded from the FX channel on my DVR. Jeez, not only are the commercials loud, but so is the VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED!!!!!! announcement.

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens

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A big factor is going to be the auditorium design, equipment, and calibration. A good THX theater should have no problem reproducing sound at the fader lever 7 as long as it was not recorded at a higher volume.

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quote:

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The commercial breaks are a LOT louder than the program on some networks,

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quote: Louis Bornwasser

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The better the playback and acoustics, the louder you can tolerate. Bad sound always sounds too loud. I think it was Cerwin-Vega that had something like that in the corporate motto.

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quote: Louis Bornwasser

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I think it was Cerwin-Vega that had something like that in the corporate motto.

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quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens

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if the filmmakers recorded the film at spec there should be no problem playing the movie at fader level 7

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quote: Marco Giustini

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Once you know it was intentional, I find it fun!

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Why would anyone intend this where everyone is bad-mouthing the sound in your movie? I await your logical, well-thought out reply.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-17-2014, 11:08 PM:
 
Hey, I'm way past 50 and I love a loud movie, if it's done well.

CNolan is in deep deep denial over this.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-17-2014, 11:28 PM:
 
Ego is a wonderful thing to swim in. And I should know!
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-17-2014, 11:38 PM:
 
I don't remember anything Cerwin Vega made to be all that clean.

As to audio mixing, one of the hardest things to get right on these loud movies is the dialog. No one in the room can tell if the dialog is understandable after a few days as the mixers and director have long since memorized the lines so can no longer judge this objectively. Plus few dubbing people have the stones to stand up to the director or his people. It's our good fortune James Cameron has good judgement about these things. Seems like his movies have great soundtracks. Can't think of any that did not from Aliens, T2, etc., all very good.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-18-2014, 12:04 AM:
 

quote: Sam D. Chavez

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No one in the room can tell if the dialog is understandable after a few days as the mixers and director have long since memorized the lines so can no longer judge this objectively.

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Yup, you just said it better than I did.

I'm guessing you didn't see the theatrical release of Terminator 1 in glorious mono? Seriously though James Cameron mixes have always been ahead of their time. Aliens is a little dated, but mixing technology wasn't quite what it is today back in 1986. For 1986 mixing abilities (post production time also factoring into this), it was phenomenal. From there it just got better and better.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-18-2014, 01:27 AM:
 
Actually, I did see T1. It was pretty low budget but showed some promise. "I'll be back" endures.

Cameron could be pretty intimidating but if you knew your stuff and stood your ground he would listen, or so I've heard.
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 11-18-2014, 10:27 AM:
 

quote: Carsten Kurz

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I don't think the audience has a 'right' to understand every single word in a movie. They have a right for a top-notch presentation.
But the artistic expression of the creative people making the movie is an offer, not an obligation.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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the movie in general did not perform as well as anticipated

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quote:

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Christopher Nolan's Interstellar has rocketed past $300 million at the worldwide box office after its first two weekends.

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quote:

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Through Sunday, the movie's global total is $321.9 million, including a foreign take of $224.1 million

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quote:

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Interstellar is doing massive business in Imax theaters around the world, racking up a total of $50 million in ticket sales. In China, the movie shattered opening records for a 2D title ($6.6 million).

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quote: Noah Katz

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Of course everyone has a difference of opinion. I will say that in a perfect world, 7 in a cinema should accurately reflect the reference sound level on a mix stage.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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Why would anyone intend this where everyone is bad-mouthing the sound in your movie? I await your logical, well-thought out reply.

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I just find it interesting and the sound was not so terrible IMHO, just a few lines were hard to get. Just my personal feeling, no logic involved!

I guess everybody were bad-mouthing Picasso paintings as well at the time

Brad,
I was told the Odeon in Leicester Sq. had to replace R2 of their 70mm print after a few days.
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 11-20-2014, 05:01 AM:
 
I guess you're mixing Interstellar topics right now. The Picassos were in the review topic .

Odeon Leicester Square did get a new Reel 2? There was a spare print left? Or did they actually strike a new reel 2 for them?
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-20-2014, 05:13 AM:
 
I've heard they printed one for them on purpose.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-20-2014, 02:24 PM:
 
Let's go with this Picasso analogy. Do you think that in the future the movie will be PRAISED for it's occasionally mumbled dialog?
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-20-2014, 05:07 PM:
 
We'll both be well dead if/when that happens!
 

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Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 06-11-2015, 08:31 PM:
 
(Rehashing an old thread, I know.)

quote: Bobby Henderson

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I've personally seen the fader in a good THX house forced downward by a mix that was way the hell too loud. While it might be possible to run one movie at 7 another might arrive and have to be turned down to 6 or even 5 to play at a comfortable level for people who like bombastic movies. We tried playing Goldeneye at 6.5 in a test run in a THX house here in Lawton. It was painfully loud. I couldn't imagine playing it at 7 the way the theater was set up. We couldn't get through the opening action sequence without turning down to 6. During regular shows it dropped to 5.5 due to loudness complaints. The THX house had been recently re-tuned when Seven arrived (that sounded awesome). There was nothing wrong with the theater setup. Goldeneye was just too hot a mix to run at 7 in that THX house.

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quote: William Kucharski

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If Nolan thinks the rocket launch should be 120 dB, I want to hear it at 120 dB

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quote: Stephan Shelley

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More important is why do you want to drive those that pay the bills out of the theatre. If you do then they will just watch it on the small screen where they can control the audio level and not come back the the theatre that assaults them audio wise.

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quote: William Kucharski

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...and few home theaters can do 120 dB at low frequencies.

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quote: David Buckley

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Volume is just like any character in a movie.

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quote: Carsten Kurz

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There are always complaints about sound levels in cinema, but it seems IMAX is really notorious there. I guess it's part of their concept - the largest picture, the loudest sound.

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quote: Joe Redifer

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How about bad EQ and an overall shitty sound setup?

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quote: Carsten Kurz

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There are always complaints about sound levels in cinema, but it seems IMAX is really notorious there. I guess it's part of their concept - the largest picture, the loudest sound. The idea is not to faithfully reproduce, but to impress, so people consider IMAX as 'special'. And of course it's targeted primarily at younger audiences, which tolerates higher sound levels in general (or lost their hearing already on techno raves). And it's true, IMAX local staff has no means to reduce the sound level.

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quote: Thomas Hauerslev

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It's interesting how 3D seems to miniaturize things on the screen.

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quote:

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@William: Think about it. You may actually think you want 'Level 7'. But you never know how loud an actual presentation has been played. I think you are right when you want a movie to be played louder. But don't insist on 'Fader 7'. You could regret it quickly. Hundreds of people (=individual human beings) sitting dispersed in a large room. You can never get it right for everyone. A single number can never express the complexity of sound-track,sound-systems, room, and individual perceptional aspects.

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quote: Marco Giustini

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Keywords: skilled and projectionist. That's it.

That said Interstellar was stupidly loud on Low Frequencies. I saw it in Leicester Square, it was loud as I would expect but some long and loud LF sequences were just annoying.

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quote: William Kucharski

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I trust the sound designer and director more than I do a skilled projectionist.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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If, the next time you take a commercial flight, the pilot decides to apply full power and climb off the runway at a 70-degree angle into a thunderstorm and a howling gale, would you be fine with that, because the pilot is operating the aircraft within its on-paper specifications and in a way that (s)he is qualified to do? Would you trust the pilot more than the passengers who would feel very uncomfortable on such a flight, and would probably choose a different airline next time (after first whining to the Daily Mail about how they thought they were about to die)?

I've now met a couple of prominent Hollywood directors, and dealt with the PAs of several more. For some reason, they all seem to want movie sound played at a volume that 99% of the moviegoing public, and movie theater workers, would find somewhere between uncomfortable and distressing. For rental, festival and other gala screenings their word goes and we have to do what they say: the result is usually multiple complaints from audience members.

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quote: William Kucharski

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Add that you go on to say that you found the LF sequences just annoying… but by turning those down you've affected what the sound designer and director were shooting for just as much as if you put a colored filter over the lens because you thought the film's coloring needed warmth.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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The bottom line is, in my 36 years in this business I've had the occasional "wow that is loud!" comment and even the occasional volume-related complaint, but not one person has ever said they wish it had been louder.

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I would.

Marco, I don't mean to harp the fader 7 issue; different theaters will have that represent different things. It was just an opportunity to vent a bit about the issue I've had since THX-certified theaters where reference level meant reference level largely went away, and that's of 99% of theaters I've attended playing movies at much too soft a volume level.

Some IMAX theaters are still good about that and I go to them when I can; AMCs tend to play their Liemax and ETX theatres as softly as they do their other houses, and Regal's RPX theatres are getting worse.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-18-2015, 11:47 PM:
 
I guess I don't understand the "need for excessive loudness." I judge the sound by the dialogue. There is a comfortable listening level for dialogue, and then there's a point where it just sounds too loud and grates on the ears. That's my theory anyway. I like it where the voices are natural sounding AND an explosion can make the floor vibrate. I don't need the floor vibrating with casual conversations.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-19-2015, 06:38 AM:
 
One thing I've found is that with better speakers in better rooms where little to no EQ is needed to hit "reference"...one can generally play the movie louder without the "pain and suffering."

Mike, I'd suspect that with your current speaker systems, you can play a movie a bit louder without it sounding painful as compared to your previous system.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-19-2015, 03:21 PM:
 
Definitely correct on that!
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-21-2015, 06:51 PM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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I judge the sound by the dialogue.

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