Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: All movies subtitled

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Posted by Tommy Zackariasson (Member # 6505) on 01-21-2015, 02:39 PM:

Hi all
Due to new discrimination regulations in Sweden, the (by far) largest movie theatre chain in the country has decided to subtitle ALL features. Probably all the other companies will follow. Some directors are not happy about this and say that especially comedies could be destroyed. Personally I have mixed feeling about this and really prefer to watch a film without subs if I understand the spoken language. At the same time its a good thing that the hearing impared can enjoy all films too.
Unlike the rest of Europe, the Scandinavian countries have a tradition of subtitling foreign movies and not dubbing them, so we are kind of used to the subs. Here only the kids movies are dubbed - I guess they will now be both dubbed and subtitled...
What do you think about this? Any other country going this path?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-21-2015, 03:06 PM:

This sounds like a great way to get people to stay home instead of going out to see movies.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have one or two shows per week per title with subtitles (for deaf patrons) and then show the rest without subtitles (for everyone else)?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-21-2015, 03:17 PM:

quote: Tommy Zackariasson
Unlike the rest of Europe, the Scandinavian countries have a tradition of subtitling foreign movies and not dubbing them, so we are kind of used to the subs.

So this decision will only really affect movies with Swedish dialog, because the others (e.g. Hollywood imports) are subtitled already? If so and out of interest, roughly what proportion of movies shown in Sweden's theaters are in Swedish and unsubtitled at present?

I'm guessing that this only affects a small proportion of total screenings (and revenue), and therefore that the chain in question have decided that subtitling everything is the most cost-effective way of responding to the new regulations, even if it does cost them some ticket sales.

But presumably this discrimination legislation applies to people with sight problems as well as hearing ones. Will all movies have to be audio-described, too?

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-21-2015, 07:33 PM:

quote: Tommy Zackariasson
Unlike the rest of Europe, the Scandinavian countries have a tradition of subtitling foreign movies and not dubbing them, so we are kind of used to the subs. Here only the kids movies are dubbed - I guess they will now be both dubbed and subtitled...

It's only the major markets that have this tradition. For example, the Dutch and the Flemish also put subtitles under anything of foreign origin. The Dutch often even throw subtitles on Flemish productions and it also tends to happen the other way around, even if the spoken dialect in the movie is just a minor deviation from "the norm"...

Dubbing only crept in the last 15 or so years for productions targeted at children.

I guess about 85 to 90% of all stuff that hits the market here is foreign, so subtitling is really more of a default around here.

The Flemish also have the tradition of double subtitles for many releases, both in Flemish/Dutch and in Walloon/French for anything that's not either Dutch of French.

Posted by Tommy Zackariasson (Member # 6505) on 01-22-2015, 12:03 PM:

Sorry Marcel about my offhanded description of Europe...in fact I now see that I counted out the Uk out too [Embarrassed]

.
Interesting about the double subs - must be annoying.

quote: Leo Enticknap
So this decision will only really affect movies with Swedish dialog, because the others (e.g. Hollywood imports) are subtitled already? If so and out of interest, roughly what proportion of movies shown in Sweden's theaters are in Swedish and unsubtitled at present?

Thats right, only Swedish films will be affected, about 20% of the tickets sold, but I guess not more than 10% of the shows.
Im not sure but it could be that the dubbed movies (aimed at children) will be subtitled too.

quote: Leo Enticknap
But presumably this discrimination legislation applies to people with sight problems as well as hearing ones. Will all movies have to be audio-described, too?

Ha ha Leo, now thats a good question, who knows in the future?

This text is from the parliament, (google translate):

"Lack of accessibility becomes a form of discrimination

Lack of accessibility for persons with disabilities is introduced as a new form of discrimination in Discrimination Act . The new prohibition of discrimination applies from 1 January 2015 in all areas of society where discrimination Act, other rules apply today , except for the provision of housing . Today there is a prohibition of discrimination against lack of accessibility valid only for parts of working life and education.

Lack of accessibility means that people with disabilities are disadvantaged because they are not made reasonable accessibility measures for the person to get in a comparable situation to people without disabilities. What steps as are reasonable assessed based on , among other things, the legal requirements for accessibility as well as practical and economic conditions.

The word disability is replaced with disabilities in a number of laws .

The Swedish Parliament said yes to the government's proposal with one exception. Businesses in health care with fewer than ten employees are also covered by the new prohibition of discrimination . According to the government's proposals , these companies would get exemptions from the rules."

Posted by Fredrik Sandstrom (Member # 8171) on 01-22-2015, 12:49 PM:

quote: Tommy Zackariasson
Interesting about the double subs - must be annoying.

Actually, it's not that problematic. It's the same thing here in Finland where we have two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. There's still only two lines of subs - first line Finnish and second line Swedish - so there's not actually more text on screen. The translations might be a little more terse, which is fine because you read them quicker.

I've seen a few old prints (1950s and 60s movies) where there are actually four lines of subs (two Finnish and two Swedish), and that is pretty annoying, but fortunately not that common among the vintage prints that are still exhibited.

Posted by Tommy Zackariasson (Member # 6505) on 01-22-2015, 01:52 PM:

quote: Fredrik Sandstrom
Actually, it's not that problematic. It's the same thing here in Finland where we have two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. There's still only two lines of subs - first line Finnish and second line Swedish - so there's not actually more text on screen. The translations might be a little more terse, which is fine because you read them quicker.

So in Finland, all movies are subtitled in some way, a Swedish movie in Finnish, and vice versa, or are all doubled?

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-22-2015, 09:23 PM:

I cannot speak for Finland, as my Cinema experience there is extremely limited [Wink]

.

But in Belgium, French productions are always subtitled in just one language: Dutch. Flemish movies are obviously only subtitled in French. The noticeable exception might be a movie in a funky Flemish dialect. Also, like I mentioned before, productions from the Netherlands are sometimes also subtitled. I guess they sometimes interpret this as a funky dialect too [Wink]

. The same thing also sometimes happens the other way around. Some Flemish productions are also subtitled in Dutch...

Whenever there are dual-language subs, they indeed tend to be somewhat compressed so they fit on a single line. They don't always entirely accurately translate the dialog, but I guess it works sufficiently well most of the times. One of the two languages is also often set in Italic. Italic is a good choice, because it's far less distracting than stuff like Bold or even another color. I'm usually not distracted by it, and for many films you won't need them anyway. It's only distracting for me, if the dialog changes to a language I cannot comprehend. You then start reading the subtitles, only to discover the thing you read wasn't Dutch. Sometimes I "see" myself switching to "French mode" before I start reading the Dutch subtitles. But if you're watching an entire film in a language you don't really master, you get the hang of it rather quickly and you'll only read the line that matters.

For 35mm releases, this dual subtitle scheme used to be the golden standard. Since the DCI era (and Belgium being a test-bed for Barco started quite early, even before the first DCI specs came about), the results are somewhat flaky, as now the projectionist/programmer has a choice. Some Dutch/Flemish productions primarily targeted at that market for example, don't show any subtitles at all at many locations. Likewise, some Walloon cinemas now regularly have dubbed programs without any subtitles at all.

The most awkward situation is actually in and around Brussels, as this region is officially fully dual-lingual, while the Walloon and Flemish part each have their official primary language. Kinepolis Brussels is often quoted as being one of the first megaplexes. I guess this came to be, because of the need to show almost every movie in multiple versions: The original version with subtitles and the French (dubbed) version. Also notable are their preshows. They alternate Dutch and French commercials for almost every show...

Posted by Fredrik Sandstrom (Member # 8171) on 01-23-2015, 01:22 PM:

quote: Tommy Zackariasson
So in Finland, all movies are subtitled in some way, a Swedish movie in Finnish, and vice versa, or are all doubled?

Swedish movies are subtitled in Finnish only.

Finnish movies are shown without subtitles, or with Swedish subtitles, depending on what part of the country we're in and whether there is a notable Swedish speaking population there.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-25-2015, 11:02 AM:

WGBH had the "rear window" captioning system. Used LED signs on rear wall with mirror glasses. You could have 2 signs back there. No glasses wit mirrors, then it is a normal movie. With glasses, you adjust to get the proper sign.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 01-25-2015, 05:08 PM:

I remember in the 70's showing Kung-Fu films that had (let's say, since I'm not Chinese literate) Mandarin going down one side, Cantonese on the other and English across the bottom. It was a damn lot of text.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 02-02-2015, 10:36 PM:

Closed captioning equipment can also be used for closed subtitles. I've started support for that on the USL system (but not finished yet). Those with the USL system may notice on the language priority configuration page the languages are marked something like "Captions en-us." The language list also has "Subtitles en-us," but that part of the code is not yet enabled. The Auxiliary Resource Presentation List can list both closed captions and closed subtitles.

Harold

Posted by Tommy Zackariasson (Member # 6505) on 03-02-2015, 12:46 PM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
But presumably this discrimination legislation applies to people with sight problems as well as hearing ones. Will all movies have to be audio-described, too?

This is in fact already up and running here now.
You download a file for the film in advance, choose if you want only the dialogue or descriptions too - hit start when show starts and the app syncs in a few seconds.