Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 70MM ultra panavision

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Posted by David J Hilsgen (Member # 2614) on 04-10-2015, 03:01 AM:

How many theatres have the lens to run the up coming Hateful eight or are they making lens, is that why boston light & sound did the site evaluations of the theatres running the 5/70 interstellar. i can imagine the lens that are still out there would be at least 40 years old, how good are the optics yet, or are they going to make matted 70mm prints for those that don`t have one.

Posted by Thomas Hauerslev (Member # 566) on 04-10-2015, 03:43 AM:

I suppose you are thinking of Ultra Panavision 70?

http://www.in70mm.com/news/2005/ultra_panavision_70/index.htm

The Panavision UP70 projection lenses are close to 55 years old - or older

http://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/2004/68/ultra_panavision/index.htm

Super Panavision 70:

http://www.in70mm.com/library/process/super_panavision_70/index.htm

Posted by David J Hilsgen (Member # 2614) on 04-10-2015, 11:35 AM:

My mistake i did mean ultra panavision 70

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-10-2015, 12:57 PM:

My understanding is that BLSI is recycling older 1.25x anamorphs that were used on series 1 DCP projectors, building the necessary film projector mounting hardware and giving them an afterlife projecting UP70.

Posted by David J Hilsgen (Member # 2614) on 04-10-2015, 09:31 PM:

Thanks Leo for that imfo

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-27-2015, 11:22 AM:

My UP-70 Anamorphic attachment is still in pristine condition. An no, they can't use it!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-27-2015, 01:10 PM:

1.25X anamorphics are not not unique to Series 1 projectors. Our most recent installation also used one on a 4K projector as one yields a 23% more efficient (light wise) scope picture on a constant height screen. In every instant when we used the anamorphic lens for scope (again, only on constant height screens), the results were superior to just zooming the lens. Sometimes one can't even get a suitable zoom lens that covers the range between scope and flat...particularly on longer TRs.

I had heard the Schneider/ISCO will be making new lenses for this release.

Posted by David J Hilsgen (Member # 2614) on 04-30-2015, 01:46 AM:

thanks steve for the imfo ,when we have our nato get together up here in mpls, mn, in may & if the schneider rep is at the trade show i`ll ask him .there is one at the heights theatre 20 mi from me but i believe it is a 4" mount kind of hard with my simplex w/ a turrent plus it is 60 years old. did you here about m t e taking 35 dts readers & making them into 70 readers

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 04-30-2015, 05:59 AM:

We need more 70MMDTS readers if this whole 70mm 5-perf print revival is going to work. You would think some entrepreneur could mod the 35mm readers.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-30-2015, 07:30 AM:

The rumor is that MTE is doing just that or making them from scratch. In truth, there is nothing about the DTS reader that a semi-competent machine shop couldn't make.

What I find odd is that Datasat has been relatively quite about it all and you'd think they would look at it as a good opportunity. 100 screens of 70mm film only helps them. Now the truth is, there would be no reason to crank up XD20 player production again, there are STACKS of DTS6/6D XD10s and probably XD20s around the country.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-30-2015, 12:23 PM:

I've been hearing reports that Datasat will be pulling out of the film sound market altogether and discontinuing support for the DTS system in July. Apparently (so I'm told) there was one theater chain that still had enough DTS 35mm installations to justify timecode neg mastering and disc production for a small number of new features, but they now no longer have enough screens to make this economically viable (they've either closed down completely or gone digital) and so Datasat are having to call it a day. It's being speculated that they're in talks with FotoKem for a sale of the rights to the system, so that DTS 70mm "boutique" titles can continue to be supported.

It seems to me that from a hardware perspective, there shouldn't be a problem at the theater end. The DTS players in existence are all essentially 1990s vintage PCs. The same job could be done now by a Raspberry Pi with some flash memory, in terms of processing power and storage space needed. The only real problem is the readers, and as Steve points out, manufacturing new ones shouldn't be so complicated that it would take an order of tens of thousands to be viable.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-30-2015, 01:16 PM:

Magnatech IS making new dts70 readers, but keep in mind Datasat/dts is shutting down operations with the Tarantino title.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-30-2015, 01:34 PM:

I wonder if it is possible for cinema processor & server manufacturers to allow DTS 35mm or 70mm time code readers to work with hardware designed mainly for d-cinema use. It's kind of like a modern 7.1 surround sound receiver at home still being able to hook up a vinyl record player.

It would be nice if d-cinema systems could synchronize film sound data from a 35mm or 70mm print, either in the data lossy compressed DTS theatrical format or even uncompressed 24/48 LPCM (or even next gen formats like Atmos). Obviously there's not much demand for that, but film may continue to live on for some time at the boutique level particularly if 70mm films like The Hateful Eight create more demand for it.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-30-2015, 08:57 PM:

If I were trying to design a new player from scratch, I'd probably go for an add-on card that slots into an AP20 or CP750/850 with, say, half a gigabyte of flash memory onboard to hold the audio data, USB stick and ethernet ports to ingest the audio data and an input for the signal from the timecode reader. In the processor's software you would set up things like the offset and what channels are routed where, and it then plays whatever you like (e.g. 8 wideband channels of LPCM) straight from the internal flash memory in sync with the timecode.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-30-2015, 09:25 PM:

Is it confirmed that Datasat is shutting down after Hateful Eight? That is, is the AP20 and such to also be no more?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-30-2015, 09:35 PM:

No, not Datasat, just the production of dts discs and timecode.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-01-2015, 06:41 AM:

That sort of makes sense then. The format is essentially dead and definitely now boutique. That sort of format has a much different business needs than a full production one. Something that film itself is in now too.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-01-2015, 01:15 PM:

The word on the street here is that FotoKem is keen to buy out the rights to the DTS film sound system in order to be in a position to provide a full service, in-house package for boutique 5/70 releasing. If so, then presumably they are figuring that for the foreseeable future, there are likely to be one or two Interstellars or Hateful Eights a year, thereby keeping that side of their business a steady, if not growing income stream.

With BLSI taking care of the theater end (developing an inventory of projector/lamphouse/platter/lens/audio processor packages that can be installed temporarily for roadshow runs, and providing spares support for the few remaining permanent 5/70 installations), it's starting to look like the 5/70 roadshow may have a more secure future than it did this time last year.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-02-2015, 11:32 AM:

With a place like NT Audio Visual already set up to record DTS time code it makes more sense to just leave it there. They did the highest quality optical tracks in the industry anyway. All Fotokem needs is the negative to print the track on release prints.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-02-2015, 11:40 AM:

Uh...sorry Mark...NTAV is no more.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 05-02-2015, 11:46 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
With a place like NT Audio Visual already set up to record DTS time code it makes more sense to just leave it there. They did the highest quality optical tracks in the industry anyway. All Fotokem needs is the negative to print the track on release prints.

NT Audio shut down their optical sound department, another casualty of the declining film business. The last standing facilities shooting sound negatives with Datasat timecode with any regularity are Fotokem and Inventure Studios, both in the LA area, and the occasional track in India.

Just to confirm some of what's been reported here - the Datasat film services division is being wound down in terms of support for Datasat Digital Sound. I myself am no longer an employee, but I am consulting with them to manage the last several 35mm films we're producing discs for (and for The Hateful Eight). The AP20 cinema processor remain in production and supported - all that's going away is the department that handled the timecode-and-disc business. Technicolor is closing their 35mm print shipping ops in July, and so Datasat is timing their end-of-life to that timeframe.

Apart from the 35mm business, which I expect to be truly end-of-life by mid-July, we are supporting the 70mm release of The Hateful Eight with both hardware and software. I don't know anything about the Magnatech run, but I do know that Datasat is manufacturing a substantial quantity of 70mm timecode readers, as well as a smaller number of XD20 players, and of course we will be providing soundtrack discs (and probably CSS subtitling discs as well, since you can't laser-etch subtitles on 5/70 prints) for this release.

After The Hateful Eight I am hopeful that a home can be found for the technology to support whatever future 5/70 releases there may be, with one of the companies interested in supporting such an endeavor.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 05-02-2015, 07:56 PM:

Hello Daniel,

As part of your consultations with the DTS remainder, please plead for the saving of all of the recordings that were made for feature films. Although there are many time code rich prints, the discs have, world wide, been the bugger in the DTS system. It appears that the absence or destruction of discs in shipping have made this wonderful sound system mute.

Please try to have the archive save these recordings and make them available to exhibitors showing the features for which the DTS sound exists. Perhaps this data could be sent by internet since the recreation of the discs might require excess cost,time and physical shipping.

Your assistance in this matter may help to preserve the integrity of the DTS digital sound system for future audiences.

KEN

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-03-2015, 10:57 AM:

Datasat have been extremely helpful in supplying discs for older titles when we've needed them recently: all we've had to do is ask, and Daniel or one of his co-workers has been able to provide us with discs. I'm guessing that they have images on their servers for most if not all of the titles they produced. That having been said, if they're no longer going to support the DTS/Datasat film sound system from July, the question of long-term preservation of the audio data does start to become an issue.

There are some permanent DTS 70mm houses - ours included - who keep disc image files of every disc that passes through our booth, in case of difficulties in getting hold of them later. I've been ripping every disc that has passed through our booths since I started here, and for our 6D auditorium I burn fresh sets before every engagement to minimize the risk of disc sticking/jumping during the show (for our XD-10 auditorium I'm working on the basis of replacing the hard drive every five years). However, I would hope that a more official long-term preservation plan for the digital audio data is in the works. If the current situation is that Datasat has all the audio data from all the DTS titles intact, we potentially have a one-time opportunity to avoid getting into a Vitaphone situation, whereby films survive for some titles but not the discs, and vice-versa.

Perhaps involving one of the larger, better-resourced non-profit archives (e.g. UCLA or the Academy) could be persuaded to acquire the audio data for permanent preservation. There will be issues with rights owners involved, but a non-profit archive would normally get around them by asking for clearance at the point of each usage, which in this case would probably come automatically with each theatrical booking. I wouldn't have thought that the studios would be too worried about an archive looking after the audio long-term, given that they're already confident about their ability to look after actual movies.

And the preservation cost for this data would eventually reduce to the point of being trivial. Let's say for argument's sake that all the audio data for all the DTS movies made since 1992 comes to, say around 100TB. It's not going to increase, because no more DTS movies are being made (well, at the absolute most, two or three a year from here on in). The cost of migrating and preserving 100TB is going to be whittled away by Moore's Law from now on. If it carries on at the same rate that the cost of hard drive storage has decreased since around 2000, we'll be able to buy a 100TB flash drive for around $80 in 2025.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-03-2015, 11:39 AM:

Thats too bad about NTAV. They did the best work out of all the places... I wonder where their recorders went to?

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-03-2015, 11:52 AM:

Recently, at the AFI/Silver, we updated their three XD10s (first with new capacitors because their were having the leaky cap syndrome) with 1TB drives and then networked them. We increased the feature audio capacity to max (you need the latest firmware in order to be able to change the storage allotments based on content type). They now have about 850GB of feature title storage. At this point, any movie that comes in is going to effectively be there forever. They would have to have a triple drive failure to loose it since once networked, all three XD10s (XD20s will do it too) will backup to each other.

That said, yes, I think there should be a DTS disc repository. I nominate Film-Tech! They are already a functioning NOC and understand proper security procedures. I'd bet they would be interested if asked. Most people already would think of them as such a source and it could be a handy tab at the top of the screen. That said, I think having multiple repositories make the chance of losing content even better.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-03-2015, 02:48 PM:

This day was inevitable. We all knew it would come sooner or later. As such I already have the vast majority of all dts released archived properly. I've been maintaining a private archive since Jurassic Park in 1993 and its quite massive.

Since the studios keep futzing up the original mixes with that destructive "near field" nonsense, I believe this archival endeavor is becoming more and more important. As more time goes by, the true original mixes are going to become lost forever and the dts archive will become the official historical documents on how those movies were supposed to sound. Down the road it will be just like a "lost film" that suddenly surfaced in some guy's attic.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 05-04-2015, 02:14 PM:

The preservation of the disc archive is very much on my mind these days. Datasat did not preserve an archive of every single feature ever encoded by DTS or Datasat (there were a lot of midlist comedies that only lasted 2 weeks in cinemas, or features with 23 different language versions encoded), but there is an archive of about 500 feature films that covers the films one would expect to see on the repertory circuit. That archive include both physical copies of the final production CDs as well as ISO image files backed up to redundant hard drives.

Finding someone willing to provide those images as needed (possibly for a fee?), provided studio clearance is provided, is my current task.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 05-04-2015, 03:13 PM:

Daniel,

I am less anxious about the loss of these sound tracks since you are working on the problem. What a shame it would be to have to use the analog optical backup rather than this digital system that otherwise works so very well. (Sounds good too!!)

If the cost of supplying these tracks is what would make them go away, what a shame that would be on the film industry.

If exhibitors can obtain a screen worthy print, there should be a way to get the original DTS track to complete the screening with authenticity.

With the large cost of the rights and more for shipping, what is an additional charge for the DTS sound track? It always costs a little more to go "first class". DTS is a feature that the audience can hear and appreciate.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-04-2015, 05:31 PM:

If we're only talking about 500 features, the volume of data involved can't be big: 2TB at the absolute most,* and only that much if there are multiple versions of the audio for a significant proportion of that 500. You could put the whole lot onto a portable hard drive costing $150. We're talking about the same amount of storage that you'd need for 10 to 15 typical feature DCPs.

I'd be very disappointed if none of the major archives in town were willing to take the custodianship and access provision of this audio data on. Hell, if you're not having any luck with any of them, I'd be willing to explore if this is something that we (the American Cinematheque) might be able to do (though obviously I can't promise anything like that on a public website, would need to consult with my boss before being able to make any commitment, etc. etc. etc.).

* Let's say 2 650MB CDs per feature = 1.3GB x 500 = 650GB; assuming two audio versions per feature, 1.3TB. This is very rough and ready, but demonstrates that we really aren't talking about a major data storage and migration problem.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 05-04-2015, 06:35 PM:

I think we're all in agreement that the amount of data is not the problem. The problem is, who wants the responsibility? In my experience, people don't realize they need a disc until the 11th hour. Does the UCLA Film Archive, or the Cinematheque, or Schulz Audio (which doesn't exist, but you take my meaning) want to be on call 24/7 and be prepared to drop whatever we're doing to FTP some files to a cinema in Buenos Aires because they forgot to check the film can for a disc, and the screening starts in an hour? When DTS or Datasat were in that business they could handle it - after all, they had staff whose full time job was to monitor emails and telephones, a disc shipping warehouse, a spreadsheet of available titles, and a rolodex of studio people to confirm clearance issues. In the absence of that infrastructure the exhibitors will have to come to understand that although a disc archive does exist it may not be able to provide the data instantly or at ultra-low cost as had been the case in the past.

To answer an earlier question - DTS or Datasat never charged exhibitors for discs. Maybe in a few marginal cases for shipping. Billing questions were always handled with the studio or distributor, and in most cases the cost of the discs were cleared up front as part of the overall license fee. In the future, whoever does wind up taking possession of the archive may well need to charge exhibitors something for disc or file delivery, if only to cover the costs.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-04-2015, 07:30 PM:

I don't think it would be realistic for any exhibitor to expect at 24/7, near-instantaneous response to a request for support for an end-of-life audio system. In fact, they should be grateful that anyone is contemplating trying to organize any ongoing support at all. A few days plus a handling fee that reflects the cost of safeguarding the data (which isn't much, but neither is it nothing) and getting it to the end user is completely reasonable.

Given the importance of this audio to cinema history from the '90s and '00s (not least because as Brad points out, it's evidence of original release mixes), I'd still be disappointed if none of the major archives that have substantial studio collections are willing to take this on.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-04-2015, 11:51 PM:

I've said it for years, Film-Tech would gladly offer to preserve the archive and make available with studio bookings downloadable ISO images of the discs. For theaters without cd burners (assuming there is such a thing), we could burn and UPS them copies of the discs for a small fee to cover the shipping.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-05-2015, 07:31 AM:

I could see in the very near future a day when CD Blanks will be no more. Disc Media becoming a thing of the past and the CD being an old version of that. What is the shelf life of CD blanks? I know from an archival standpoint, "burned" CDs are the first things to give it up of just about any media.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-05-2015, 10:03 AM:

So long as the dts6 and dts6-d players have been upgraded to DVD drives, the files can be burned to DVD-Rs. The XD10 and XD20 have always had them. Also the XD10 and XD20 can load from a USB drive.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-05-2015, 11:30 AM:

The archival life of "homebrew" optical discs has had quite a bit of research done (mainly based on Arrhenius testing) - Library of Congress study. The short version is between a few months and 20 years (reliably), based on the dye type, how well it was burnt, how well it was stored (storing it in a completely light tight container in as dark as possible a room appears to be the biggest single factor) and how many times it's been read.

My gut feeling is that it'll be around five years from the time at which we're no longer seeing them on the shelf at Office Depot before even specialist suppliers won't be selling them. Even VHS tapes are still being made, albeit in very small quantities and pretty expensive now - there are some data recorders from the '80s and '90s used in medical and industrial applications that still use them for example (same deal with BRK exciter bulbs used in pathology lab imaging equipment, that will also work in Eiki portable 16mm projectors - but because they're medical grade, sterilized etc., they cost $150 each).

So I suspect that any remaining 6s and 6Ds will be on their last legs before the supply of CD-Rs starts to become a problem. And because of the huge market penetration of audio CDs, it'll be a long time before the technology goes away totally.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-05-2015, 02:25 PM:

Before shutting down could they make a set of generic TC negatives, each one longer than any conceivable 70mm reel, which labs could use to print TC? The protection against playing the wrong disks would be lost of course but hopefully anyone playing more than one 70mm print could manage to make sure the right disks are in the player. (Not sure about XD's...is there a way to select the title or maybe only one movie can be loaded at a time.) The lab could then use these negs for many releases until they wear out.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-05-2015, 02:49 PM:

No need to make disks. The media can be loaded onto a thumb drive and sent out and ingested into an XD-10.

If DTS is really shutting all this down be sure to hold onto what ever mag dubber's you have. That will be all that is left to do six track in the future.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-05-2015, 03:26 PM:

Steve: I believe their very first ones were as you describe.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 05-07-2015, 05:49 AM:

FYI new Magnatech 70mm DTS readers are roughly $1500.00 US each.