This is topic Changing speed on FP-30D in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-22-2015, 10:26 AM:
Had an email yesterday asking if we can run an eight minute silent short on 35 mm in December.
We have a pair of scrap aperture plates badly cut for some other format, and replaced years ago, so I could re-cut these. Would only need one machine done for this film. we have enough screen available that we could use the Academy lenses. Can't shift the lens axis; I'm still thinking about that one. The Cinema Museum run silent film on FP-20s, I can ask the projectionist there how he gets around this problem. Looked at the loops, and there's no scratching within the silent frame area. The film is on safety stock. BFI recommend 16-18 fps, so it sounds like it's an early one, I don't know the title yet. The motors are driven by a box marked Kinoton 8100. Above this, between the two relay boards, is a board with three buttons, white, black and red, which select 24, 25 and 30 f.p.s.
There's a large removable cover on the front of the 8100 unit, which reveals nothing interesting, and a small one behind which are a three digit seven segment display which normally displays twice the frame rate, so presumably the output frequency of the inverter, and four buttons, PRG, up arrow, down arrow and SH. If I press PRG the display changes to C50 and if I then press the arrow buttons this number changes, but not always in steps of 1, and the motor speed doesn't change. SH button doesn't seem to do anything obvious.
Given the inverter drive system I'm sure that it must be possible to reduce the speed of the motor somehow, but I can't work out how. Any ideas.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-22-2015, 12:44 PM:
Assuming it uses the Lenze inverter then you need the manual for that in order to see how to adjust the output frequency. Check the Lenze web site for the manual. I have a PK-60D here at home that uses the Lenze... There is a small toggle switch on the relay board to select 24 or 30 fps. I never messed with the adjustments on mine but I suspect I could program the 30 fps speed to a silent speed pretty easily and save the setting in the Lenze. You can likely do exactly the same.
I have used Baldor drives successfully in the past for variable speed and they are very similar to the Lenze.
Mark
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-22-2015, 01:00 PM:
I'm not really familiar with the 8100 version of the controller though I "think" it is the one that required a separate snap in control panel to have a display of any type. The three speed presets on the 8200 are stored at C37, C38 and C39 so that is where I'd probably start looking and if the values in those positions are double the fps...then I think you'll have found your preset entries.
Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 10-22-2015, 03:16 PM:
That sounds like a Lenze 8100 series inverter ? From your description it sounds like it has the control interface built into it (some needed a separate keypad which you attach to the inverter to control it) if so then it's prob configured for external control rather than by the built in controls. You need to find the parameter for 'digital operator control ' and enable it , then just dial in the HZ. In my FP40 I had to replace the lenze vfd with a different model because I couldn't get hold of the keypad to change the parameters.
Posted by Fabian Schreyer (Member # 5120) on 10-22-2015, 10:29 PM:
I think it should be quite easy to reprogram the Lenze inverter. But don't you think that a classic FP30D running at 18 or even 16 fps will leave you with some heavy flicker?
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-10-2015, 05:55 AM:
Steve,
I've found a manual for a slightly different, but similar model. It says that C50 shows the current output frequency, which does seem to be the case.
C39 shows 60 at the moment, so it looks like you are probably correct. If I can change this to 36 I should be able to get 18 fps on the button which is doing 30 fps at the moment.
Have cut a plate, slightly undersized so I can finish it to match the actual print.
If I loosen the bolts I can move the projector slightly to centre the image. The silent short is the only 35 mm film to be run that day, so that will be ok. Am using the right-hand projector, so this will reduce the keystoning, not increase it.
Fabian,
Yes, we will get some flicker. The BFI recommend 16-18 fps for this film, so we'll go for the higher figure. A two-flash shutter is not ideal, but we cannot change that. Our 35 mm picture is rather bright; if we wind down the lamp current a bit the flicker will be less noticeable. It's only for eight minutes, we can get away with it. I've seen silent film running with conventional two-bladed shutters in the past, and this shouldn't be any worse than that.
I don't actually know what the film is yet; I'll have to ask.
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-11-2015, 03:49 PM:
Thank you all for your help, I have managed to get it running at a suitable speed. The BFI recommend 16-18 fps, but it makes a surprisingly large difference to the visible flicker if run at 19. I think we can get away with that.
The film is from 1909, and is 'A Glass of Goat's Milk'. I know nothing more about it yet.
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 02-17-2017, 06:20 AM:
It has been 463 days since the last post.
Posted by Pete Hobday (Member # 8076) on 02-17-2017, 06:20 AM:
Hi Stephen
We're currently looking at doing exactly the same thing with our 2 FP30D's, as we have a silent film company wanting to start running old archive prints with us
I was wondering if you had the time at all to let me know how you managed to change the inverter settings on your projectors to be able to change the frame rates suitably please?
Would be extremely grateful!
Many thanks
Pete
Posted by Steve McAndrew (Member # 8865) on 02-19-2017, 02:45 PM:
Hi
If your FP30s have the same invertors as my FP30s & FP20s (Lenze EVF8201-E), I have the programming panel for this model. Let me know if you want to borrow the panel.
As far as I know the frequency setting on the invertor is twice the frame rate, so I guess you need to set the invertor to 36hz??
I think I have the complete inventor settings for an FP30 somewhere too.
Let me know if I can help
Steve
Posted by Sascha F. Roll (Member # 9043) on 02-19-2017, 05:09 PM:
I hope you do all have the 3-blade-shutter for your fp20/30 or the picture will be flickering as hell...
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-19-2017, 07:47 PM:
It all depends on the pulley ratio and how the intermittent is tied in but yes, in general, frame rate = double frequency because the intermittent shaft speed is 1440RPM for 24fps. so, if you have a 1:1 ratio on your motor pulley to intermittent pulley and you are using a sync motor such that 60Hz = 1800 (or 50Hz = 1500RPM (or close enough to that...damn 50Hz countries), then yes, 48Hz = 1440 RPM or 24fps on a Kinoton Intermittent.
Posted by Hannes Ziegenhorn (Member # 9849) on 02-20-2017, 03:50 AM:
The latest Kinoton projectors (afaik since 2003 or so) had Lenze SMD inverters installed. The smaller ones with a red 7 segment LED display. They can be programmed without a special panel.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-20-2017, 05:55 AM:
The 8200smd was used earlier than that. I believe the switch happened either late 2001 or early 2002 (for projectors...I believe the spool towers continued with the 8201 for a period longer). The transition happened after the switch away from the hammertone paint and the pad shoes that would stay open for threading, both of which happened late in 2000.
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-20-2017, 10:53 AM:
Pete,
I've only just read your post as I haven't been here for a few days.
I can't remember the details at the moment, but I can work it out again next time I'm at the cinema if somebody else hasn't told you before then.
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-21-2017, 05:20 AM:
Pete,
If you haven't got an answer yet I think I can tell you haw to do it, if your machines are the same as ours. The inverter is a white plastic box, about six inches square, with the number 8100 in it. There are several cards above it, one of which has three buttons coloured white, black and red from bottom to top. These are pre-programmed for 24, 25 and 30 f.p.s.
There are two clip-on covers on the inverter, a large one at the top and a small one at the bottom. Remove the small one and you should see a three digit seven segment display and four buttons, PRG, up arrow, down arrow and SH. Power up the projector; take care not to get anything caught up in the strange inside out motor.
Look at the display with the projector at rest. It will probably show C50 or 0.0. If it shows C50 press the PRG button and it should then show 0.0. Start the projector motor, and it should then show 48.0; as somebody else has said, the inverter output frequency has to be twice the desired frame rate. if you press the black button it should change to 50.0, and with the red button 60.0.
If all of this seems to work, then you need to change the value stored in a location, and I can work out which location that is.