Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 7/3 in Santa Monica - a rare chance to hear 35mm 4-track mag

This is topic 7/3 in Santa Monica - a rare chance to hear 35mm 4-track mag in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=012006

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-17-2016, 04:15 AM:

Thought this might be worth posting here, for those of you within a sane distance of Santa Monica who might be interested in making the trip.

On Saturday, July 3, we're showing a 35mm 4-track "Fox Hole" magoptical (but playing the mag, of course) Dolby (format 24) print of Purple Rain, from Warner Media Archive, at the Aero.

A little background: about six months ago, a private rental customer wanted to show this movie. Our programmers simply got hold of a print through their usual way of doing that, which resulted in this print showing up in the Aero booth one day. I was astonished when I took it out of the Goldbergs: it was in almost new condition, no significant shrinkage, oxide shedding or anything. I didn't know if the Aero's Norelcos were even wired for 35mm mag, but saw that they were when I took the cover off the heads.

The main audio processor in this house is a CP650, with the CP200 it superseded remaining in place for mag tracks only. I'd used it a few times for 70mm mag since being hired in 2014, but never a 35mm mag print. So I selected format 24 (per instructions on the leader of R1) and the MPU1 to 35mm, threaded and played, and it sounded amazing (well, as amazing as 1980s pop can ever sound!). Not quite 70 mag, but one helluvan improvement over SR-D, especially at the upper end of the frequency range.

When Prince passed away, I mentioned this print to our programmers (it's in great shape for the pix as well as the sound, too), who, to their credit, managed to book it back again for the tribute show on July 3. The opportunity to hear any 35mm mag print is now very, very unusual, so I thought I'd mention this show in case anybody would like to see it and is able to get there. In the interests of full disclosure, the mag preamp cards in the Aero's MPU1 have not been EQ-ed since the initial installation, and so the audio probably won't be quite as good as it theoretically could be, but you'll still get a pretty good sense of what this technology was capable of at its peak.

More info here.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 06-17-2016, 09:55 AM:

Thanks for the tip! I'm gonna come.

Point of order, it's Sunday July 3.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 06-17-2016, 11:34 AM:

This is probably the same print that was shown at the AFI Silver last year. Same situation, they booked it and this 4 track print magically appeared. Steve Guttag posted about it I believe. Perhaps he can chime in here with more info. Very Very rare nonetheless especially since most collector folks think Yentl was pretty much the last major 4 track release.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-17-2016, 11:41 AM:

Format 24? Should be Format 23 (Dolby-A 4-track magnetic). Now there are CP200s out there with Format 24 to also switch the speakers to LC/RC instead of L/R for 1.85 movies but it isn't a standard format number from Dolby. Now I supposed someone may have used Format 24 on the CP500 without verifying what it was on the CP200 for consistency.

WRT Purple Rain...I found I had to "find" the right Dolby level to get it to a point where there was no pumping in the NR circuits by using some reference tone and then altering the level until it seemed like a very good match for PR. As I recall, there is no 12KHz tone for the surrounds but with the NR, there is also no problem (and I hate the 12KHz pilot tone...can always hear it and it can bleed onto the adjacent track on the full-coat master while in storage).

It definitely has that "80s" sound to it. Enjoy!

Posted by Frank B. McLaughlin (Member # 6683) on 06-17-2016, 11:59 AM:

If you want a real treat see if FOX has a 4 track mag of Brian DePalma's PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE or Universal's 3 track mag of JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 06-17-2016, 07:46 PM:

That mag/opt print showed up at the Castro Theatre last time they ran it. Sadly they can not run mag at the moment. They contacted Warner's who swore there was no mag print of Purple Rain only optical. I looked at the print myself and it was mag.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-17-2016, 09:03 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Format 24? Should be Format 23 (Dolby-A 4-track magnetic).

Isn't 23 = Dolby A, no surround / 24 = Dolby A, with surround? Given that this pic was well into the 1980s, I'd have guessed that it would have a surround channel, as A-type phase matrixed optical did. With 24 selected on our CP200, I was hearing a track on the surrounds (the same one on L and R surround; very obvious during musical numbers). Anyway, the 24 on the leader of R1 was handwritten on tape, so that might have been a guess.

Thanks for the tuning tips: we do have some pink noise, tone and sweep films at the Aero, and I will at least run them to check the gain (I don't have an analyzer, and so can't check the EQ on the preamp cards).

Weird - it must have been at least 20 years since I last heard 35mm mag, and then two came along at once: an original release IB print of King of Kings from UCLA at TCM (pix very scratchy and dusty, but still sounded pretty good) and then this one of Purple Rain, twice.

For those who do intend to brave it, I gather that there will be a "dress up as your favorite 1980s pop musician" competition as part of the evening. Don't think I'll be venturing outside the booth...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-17-2016, 09:58 PM:

Look on your CP200...there is no format 24. At least there isn't any that Dolby silk screened onto the Control unit. They never did a Dolby-A non-surround format. After all, if there isn't a surround, so be it, no need for a special format. For SVA, they did non-surround versions due to earlier decoders like the CAT116 that would create phantom surround info and such...once the CAT150C and beyond came out...the need for format 03 became significantly less.

Now the AFI does have a Format 24 for "Flat" movies but that is something I added, not something that came with the CP200 or was a standard. In the picture warehouse here, you can see the formats that the AFI had/has.

I wouldn't worry too much about the frequency response and pink noise...just getting your levels high enough that you are not mistracking the NR circuits will do plenty. I found that PR didn't conform to any existing test film I had (some SMPTE M35-SL, some Teccon full-coat at 185nW/m or Fantasia tone from the mid/late 80s...I figured that one would have been closest but it definitely wasn't right.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 06-17-2016, 11:04 PM:

Format 21 might be noise reduction with no surrounds. It is a valid format. 24 is not valid on my 200.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 06-19-2016, 02:26 PM:

I do not recall the origin of this list. It might have been UCLA. Maybe not.

Codes (Revised 03/21/96)

35mm Composite Optical

01 Academy Mono (Composite Mono w/academy curve)
02 Dolby Mono (Widerange Mono with A-Type NR)
03 Dolby Stereo/No Surrounds (SVA Comp. w/A-Type NR, No Surrounds)
04 Dolby A (SVA Composite with A-Type NR)
05 Dolby SR (SVA Composite with SR NR)

35mm Composite Magnetic

20 4 Track (Conventional 4 Track Mag, No NR, No Surrounds)
22 4 Track (Conventional 4 Track Mag, No NR, Mag Filters)
23 4 Track (4 Track Mag, A-Type NR, Widerange, No Surrounds)
24 4 Track (4 Track Mag, A-Type NR, Widerange, w/Surrounds)

35mm Digital

10 Dolby Digital (Digital with SR Default)
DTS (Digital 6 Channel, Timecode to CD-ROM w/Dolby Default)
SDDS (Digital 8 Channel with Dolby Default)

35mm Separate Magnetic

09 Dolby Mono/Mag (Widerange Mono with A-Type NR, Mag. Input)
11 Mono/Mag/Wide (Widerange Mono no NR, Mag. Input)
14 Mono/Mag/NR (Mono w/Academy Curve, A-Type NR, Mag. Input)
15 Mono/Mag (Mono w/Academy Curve, no NR, Mag. Input)
16 PM-SR (Printmaster, SR NR)
17 PM-A (Printmaster, A-Type)

70mm Composite Magnetic

40 70mm 6 track (Conventional 6 Track, no NR, Mag Filters)
41 Dolby 70mm Wide (6 Trk, A-Type NR, Widerange all 6 Channels)
42 Dolby 70mm Baby Boom (6 Trk, A-Type NR, Baby Boom Channels 2 & 4)
43 Dolby 70mm Stereo Surr (6 Trk, A-Type NR, Baby Boom/Stereo Surr.)
44 Dolby 70mm Wide (6 Trk, SR NR, Widerange all 6 Channels)
45 Dolby 70mm Baby Boom (6 Trk, SR NR, Baby Boom Channels 2 & 4)
46 Dolby 70mm Stereo Surr (6 Trk, SR NR, Baby Boom/Stereo Surr.)

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-20-2016, 02:47 AM:

I remember, in 1976, I ran Dino De L's "King Kong" in four track mag.

We had RCA Tech come in a week earlier and gave our location a major optical and mag tune up for this release.

Two years late for one week, we ran a full coat magnetic of "Fantasia" , which didn't do much, but sounded great.

-Monte

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 06-20-2016, 07:52 AM:

BKSTS Projectionists' Manual: Unit 6, Edition 1.0.

STANDARD FORMAT NUMBERS

01 Mono
02 Dolby Mono
03 Dolby A-type no surrounds
04 Dolby A-type with surrounds
05 Dolby SR
10 Dolby Digital
11 DTS or External 6 channel input
20 35 mm magnetic without surround
22 35 mm magnetic
26 Printmaster, 2 channel, no noise reduction
27 Printmaster, 2 channel, A-type
28 Printmaster, 2 channel, SR
40 Non Dolby 70mm Conventional
41 Dolby 70mm Conventional
42 Dolby 70 mm with boom channels
43 Dolby 70 mm with boom channels and stereo surrounds
60 Non sync 1
61 Non sync 2
64 Public Address, Centre channel
65 Public Address, Surround channels
66 Test Tone

Dolby CP650 Setup Software manual
Table 2-2 User Formats

01 Mono
04 Dolby A-type
05 Dolby SR
10 Dolby Digital
11 External 6-Channel
13 Dolby Digital Surround EX
20 35 mm Magnetic, 3-Channel
22 35 mm Magnetic, 4-Channel
42 70 mm Dolby Stereo
60 Nonsync 1
61 Nonsync 2
64 Public Address Center Channel
65 Public Address Surround Channels
66 Test Tone 320 Hz
70 Video PA (NS1)
71 Video Mono (NS1)
73 Video LCR (NS1)
74 Video Pro Logic no Subwoofer (NS1)
75 Video Pro Logic with Subwoofer (NS1)
80 Digital Input
81 External Dolby Digital Surround EX
87 External 6-Channel with Surround EX
92 Dolby SR (6-Channel In)
93 Dolby SR (NS1)

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-29-2016, 01:02 PM:

Very sorry, but it looks like we will be playing a regular optical print.

The mag print is currently at another venue, and when we asked Warners if we could have it for Sunday, someone at that other venue apparently told them that the Aero's projectors do not have CS sprockets (totally untrue) and that we couldn't project it without causing perforation damage. As of now, Warners prefer to believe this other venue rather than us, and are refusing to let us have the mag print. The fact that we played it once without damaging it doesn't seem to factor in to their thinking, for some reason.

Appeals are being made, but it doesn't seem hopeful that they'll budge.

Personally, I suspect that this is political: the movie has become topical again after Prince died, and this other venue probably wants to be able to claim that they are the only one in town to be playing a mag print. So I fear that our show will be boring optical A-type; sorry.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-01-2016, 03:45 PM:

Very sorry, but Warners have refused to budge, and so Purple Rain will be a DCP on Sunday. The only other film print they have is not even Dolby A, but mono, and our programmer's feeling is that we can't show a 1980s music film with only mono audio. The second half of the show, Sign O' The Times, will be a Dolby A film print; a Fuji print from the original release, quite well used, but with good color and which looks like it's had an ultrasonic cleaning recently.

Still, disappointed that we won't be able to play the mag print, and especially because of the reason why, that another venue in town has been spreading misinformation about us. Grr...