Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Getting a Kinoton FP20 to run again.

This is topic Getting a Kinoton FP20 to run again. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Ian Griggs (Member # 9542) on 08-13-2016, 04:50 AM:

(Also in another post).
Well here we go again! A few years have passed since the last comment on this subject, but I will resurrect it by saying I just had a late 1980s FP20 delivered yesterday, and of course it won't run!
I have power and the LED / sound head is alive and I can switch lenses by the WS/SC buttons but nothing else. I have a film in to make sure the film break sensor is off.
This machine had no automation (was running a platter), and the controls appear to be very simple. EG ON OFF and that's it.
Where should I start? I can put photos up if it will help anyone, or we could do it by email.
PS The machine was fully operational up till last week.
Many thanks!

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 08-13-2016, 07:19 AM:

Do you use the platter? Kinoton platters were super overcomplicated and the connection to the projector also overcomplicated. It's been a long time since I took the service course but I think some rewiring has to be done to get a projector to run again after disconnecting a platter.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-13-2016, 09:39 AM:

It isn't very complicated. There are two signals. The projector provides a "Run" command to the platter so it knows to start turning and you are not merely threading up and a "break" command that comes back to the projector to tell it to stop if something goes amiss on the platter side of the film path.

Posted by Ian Griggs (Member # 9542) on 08-13-2016, 05:59 PM:

Thank you Dave and Steve!
First thing this morning I was about to try the jumper leads settings as shown in the FP30E manual, but as would be expected, the terminal strips on my 1990 FP20 are nothing like those at all. To make matters worse, the numbers are almost unreadable. The only other manual I have is for the "old" FP20, but that is quite different too. Does anyone have a manual for my machine? At any rate here is my terminal block set up off the main board. As you can see, there is already a jumper. I guess this might be the one for platter setup, but if I disconnect it, I need to know the correct setting for "no platter."

Before someone asks, the serial number is F Nr 4313. This seems a very low number for 1990 to me! Also here's another photo of the operating side:

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-15-2016, 04:20 PM:

A common theme on the Kinoton mechanical projectors is "K1" that is the run relay. It would VERY likely be the big relay in your picture. K1 latches through K2 or the "Stop" relay any any safety with the latch of K2 being the last "safety" in the series chain. The "61s" typically are where the various safety interlocks live (61A, 61B...etc).

Does the motor run if you hold in the Motor Start button?

Posted by Ian Griggs (Member # 9542) on 08-16-2016, 02:02 AM:

Hi Steve. Thanks for that. I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that no the motor doesn't run when START Green button is pushed.
I have done a temporary work-around, by running power directly to the motor via the big starter capacitor and it runs fine. However I had an idea that the motor supply first went through some sort of controller or inverter? But maybe not on this model.(I was worried that I might damage the motor by putting power straight to it.)
I can still run everything else, as I have power to the sound head and red LEDs, and also to the turret/aperture plate changeover.
Someone had already closed the film break sensor circuit (must have had trouble with it!), and I disconnected the dowser, as it was always closed.
I won't be running a xenon lamp in this, only a 24v 250w QI where the arc would have been. Cheers!

Posted by Jonathan Wood (Member # 4614) on 08-16-2016, 04:51 AM:

Hi Ian,
I doubt you'll damage the motor by running it directly from the cap but it might not be too kind on the film if the motor starts at high revs? Is there an inverter in the machine? Most of the kinoton machines I've seen are all inverter run . If you don't have an inverter then you could install one and control your motor via your push buttons. You can also program a soft start too.
Chees Jon

Posted by Ian Griggs (Member # 9542) on 08-16-2016, 05:39 AM:

Thanks Jonathan - that's exactly what I was thinking too.
With any luck though I will be able to identify the motor start relays and inverter wiring, but in the meantime I can always put a rheostat for a "slow start."
No doubt you will hear more on this. What a great forum!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-16-2016, 06:31 AM:

If pressing the START button does not engage the start relay and start the motor, then likely you are missing the low-voltage power. Kinoton mechanical projectors typically have either 6V or 24V low-voltage power. That toggle switch above the barrier strip is what would turn that on (and is protected via the fuse next to it). From that switch, the power should make it to the step down transformer. Once that transformer is on, the framing light should come on and the changeover should move to the closed position and be HELD there. It only opens when the motor is running AND the changeover is told to open.

Do you have your mains power connected to 20, 40 and 60? Those are normally the input power to the projector and it distributes the power from there.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 08-16-2016, 03:52 PM:

Depending on the original owner, it's not uncommon to find that tthe 24v PSU was actually not integral to the projector. The ABC/MGM/Cannon/whateverwe'recalledtoday sites used Gretton Ward automation, and most of the projector control was actually inside that. I've also seen the 24v psu as part of the exciter supply unit.

Posted by Ian Griggs (Member # 9542) on 08-18-2016, 06:42 AM:

Thanks Steve and Peter. I will sit down over the weekend and try and nut all this out. In answer to your question, the projector was simply connected to the mains and that's how I have reconnected it. I have made no changes to it, and it was fully operational until the day it was decommissioned. Unfortunately my request for the tech to tag and label every cable went unheeded!

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 08-18-2016, 04:59 PM:

If your running the motor connected to a large capacitor shouldn't that cause the motor to gradually come up to operating speed? Or is the capacitor wired so that it's already fully charged before you press the green start button?