Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Rogue One low constrast

This is topic Rogue One low constrast in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=012093

Posted by Neil Brimelow (Member # 9480) on 12-18-2016, 03:54 AM:

I'm just wondering if anyone else is noticing that the Rogue One 2D DCP suffers from lower than normal contrast? At first I thought something was amiss with the projector, but alas no. The Underworld trailer, and other trailers played fine. I asked a friend in another part of the state and they also relayed issues with the picture quality; low contrast and soft focus at their theater. The issue is nothing critical, mind you, we've had no complaints, and the image is satisfactory, just not as good as I had anticipated.

Posted by Frederick Lanoy (Member # 5416) on 12-18-2016, 05:52 AM:

Saw it yesterday in 2D with a Barco DP2K32B. Presentation was flawless. No problem with contrast.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-18-2016, 10:06 AM:

In the days of film (remember those?) a low-contrast print was one made for television.

Soooooo....... [Big Grin]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-18-2016, 11:46 AM:

I wonder if some viewers are confusing low depth of field with low contrast.

Many of the movie's live action shots were captured with the Arri Alexa 65 camera, whose image sensor is roughly the same size as a 5/65mm film frame. Combine the large sensor with Ultra Panavision style anamorphic lenses and that can make for some really low depth of field looking shots (if desired).

The anamorphic lenses were not needed since the Alexa 65 already has a near 'scope shaped image sensor, but the producers wanted to maintain an anamorphic look since all the other Star Wars movies had the 'scope look. But these lenses only apply a 1.25x squeeze to the imagery. So they have to push depth of field as low as they can to amply the effect of anamorphic bokeh.

Posted by Richard P. May (Member # 3598) on 12-18-2016, 11:56 AM:

I saw Rogue One last night at the Academy's Goldwyn Theater, about as good a venue as you can get. Overall, I thought the picture was purposely dark. Not the fault of the theater. It just left me wanting the film makers to turn on the lights or go outside in the sun.

Posted by Terry Monohan (Member # 8285) on 12-18-2016, 12:39 PM:

May not look good at night on a drive-in screen if they have stray light in the lot. Will see It next week in a Imax theatre around the SF Bay Area in 3-D. I have never been a fan of Star Wars for some reason. Going to 'La La' on Monday on the largest XD screen in SF CA. At least I know It will be a nice bright scope picture on a curved screen at the Century 9.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-18-2016, 01:26 PM:

Either of those movies is going to be seriously letter-boxed, with LA LA Land being the bigger offender due to its 2.55:1 cropped image. The live action imagery from Rogue One was actually 2.76:1 due to the Ultra Panavision style lenses, but they chopped off the ends of the image to conform it to standard 2.39:1.

Either way, common width screens make 'scope suck.

Posted by Tyler Purcell (Member # 9213) on 12-19-2016, 05:12 PM:

I saw Rogue One at Arclight Sherman Oaks and it was very flat with low contrast. I've heard from other people the same thing. It's clearly colored that way and shooting with the Alexa 65 doesn't make it better as that camera works the best in low-con situations. Just watch the other two films shot with it recently, they both have that low-con look.

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 12-19-2016, 05:39 PM:

quote: Tyler Purcell
the Alexa 65 doesn't make it better as that camera works the best in low-con situations

I'm very curious as to why you say that, especially as the camera is capable of over 14 stops dynamic range. Even if it were true, as long as the show is output in uncompressed ARRIRaw, the DP and colorist can make the contrast whatever they want.

I'll tell you what I DID notice today at the local Dolby Vision screen. They go thru the whole pre-show rigamarole about how great the contrast and is, and they do the "Yes, the projector is still on" thing to show how deep the blacks are. And then the moment the file with the feature started, the image went from deep black to not-very-black at all, more of a gray. I started to wonder if there was an error in the Dolby Vision mastering for the show. The rest of the picture played with unremarkable contrast and seemed somewhat low in luminance, although there were spots that were quite bright, the final battle sequence for example.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 12-20-2016, 07:14 AM:

Mark, I've noticed that same thing with every feature I've seen in Dolby Cinema.

Pure black, then when the file hits, dark grey. It's like the projector is capable of more than what the content is providing.

Posted by Tyler Purcell (Member # 9213) on 12-20-2016, 12:10 PM:

I think you'd find most cinematographers try to generate looks like that in camera. Sure, you could "fix" it in post if you wanted, but since the cinematographer is usually present for coloring, they will veto any major changes that don't fit their vision. Not saying the Alexa 65 is magical, but what the bigger imager and better electronics allow the filmmakers to do, is have less noise in the blacks. This is really what allows them to make a product with those flat mids.

In terms of the HDR laser projection system. Basically it's kind of a scam. All it does is roll-off a certain part of the black level into "mirror off" for that pixel. It's an encode, decode system however, so if the movie isn't specifically sent with the right packet data to be presented in HDR, it won't be. This is why the black level lifts after the demo, because Rogue One wasn't made that way. It would be easy for them to adjust the software on the projector to compensate, but Dolby wants people to pay for their licensing of HDR. So they want it to not look as good, hoping they'll eventually get some cash out of filmmakers for the future.

I'll say this much, with all the technology and money being spent on making digital projection look good, it still doesn't surpass a good 5/70 print with a proper calibrated projector.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-20-2016, 12:28 PM:

Seems like a lot of movies are going for that washed-out color/dull image look lately. I did notice that there were a lot of dark scenes in Rogue One.... made me glad that our 3-D unit is out of commission.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-20-2016, 12:32 PM:

I watched Doctor Strange at a Dolby Cinema theater last month and didn't notice the black level turn to gray as the movie was starting. I thought the Atmos mix could have been better however. But it's still pretty disturbing to hear the black level of this Star Wars movie isn't as deep as what viewers see in AMC's Dolby Cinema snipe.

One more thing to add regarding the depth of field in the movie's cinematography: contrast levels will be strongest in areas that are sharply in focus. There is a lot of shallow depth of field in this movie. It reminds me of the 15/65mm IMAX sourced footage in Christopher Nolan's recent films. A bunch of that stuff looked like it was shot with the lens aperture wide open.

If the post production people have goofed up the black levels in the DCPs for Rogue One that would only exaggerate the lower contrast in out of focus areas of the imagery.

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 12-20-2016, 02:22 PM:

I hate to put myself as some sort of Nostradamus but I'm pretty sure I saw this coming. Trailers hardly, and ever so rarely, represent the final film whatsoever. Jurassic World and The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug are classic modern-day examples of this. I did not see Rouge One's theatrical release yet (I don't really plan to) so I cannot speak on behalf of the film's poor contrast. Like I said in the link, it could have been a stylistic choice above anything.

The funny thing about Laser projectors and contrast is that the black levels will hardly matter depending on the auditorium's lighting and the content. For IMAX with Laser (namely at the Udvar-Hazy Center), some content will have the blacks go as black as they can (Ant-Man, IMAX docs) and others are mastered for standard xenon projectors (Jurassic World, this was its IMAX-only second run later on). I guess the same happens at Dolby Cinema. Rouge One was indeed mastered in Dolby Vision (according to Dolby's website) so whether the contrast was intended to be mediocre or it was a DCP mastering goof, maybe visual effects artist-turned-director Gareth Edwards took advantage of the wider color gamut at the very least.

Even if you get the blackest of blacks, it won't matter if your exit signs are next to the screen. In the Dolby Cinema at AMC Empire 25 (I'm told this also happens at AMC Tyson's Corner 16), the red glow of the exit sign shines on the left corner of the screen, making it very distracting at dark moments. The IMAX with Laser setup at Udvar-Hazy still has a little light reflecting around the auditorium, not as bad as Dolby Cinema at AMC Prime but the screen sometimes look to have a minimal TV-esque glare. You can't trade off safety for perfect contrast.

Posted by Kristo Nalo (Member # 9748) on 01-03-2017, 06:05 AM:

How much is Barco DP2K32B?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-03-2017, 02:17 PM:

Prices vary with supplier, but they are over $55k USD for the 32B unit new.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-03-2017, 03:39 PM:

Can we even be sure that every Dolby Cinema installation uses the beefed-up cascaded high contrast light engines (yet)?

Even if - Dolby Cinema enables the projection system to utilize very high contrast and color saturation - but if that is not what the director/DOP wants, Dolby mastering can not simply mess with the mastering process to make blacks blacker or whites whiter. After all, Rogue One was shot and produced to imitate the style of the very first Star Wars movie (and did so well in my opinion). Dolby Cinema mastering should not jeopardize that intention.

Actually I'm glad about these reports, as it seems Dolby is not overdoing it on the Dolby Cinema releases just to show off the capabilities of their technology. I don't want every movie in Dolby Cinemas to look like 'Inside Out'.

- Carsten

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 7758) on 01-04-2017, 03:50 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
After all, Rogue One was shot and produced to imitate the style of the very first Star Wars movie (and did so well in my opinion).

"Rogue" in Imax 70mm is an exceptionally dark movie until the final quarter. The homage shown to Episode 4 struck me as fitting and enjoyable, no disagreement there. But back in '77 I don't remember ever wondering when they were going to finally open an aperture and throw some light on the screen.

So "low contrast" IS an issue in the sense that many early sequences have a light-value range that stays quite low, and some of them are strikingly grainy or fuzzy as well (this varies). The dimmest moments are so exceedingly dark that I presume that no visible image could be seen along the film unless illuminated by a very bright light source (compliments to Kodak).

It's as though the producers planned a sort of visual crescendo to give the final battle sequence and associated white-out moments greater visual impact. And it IS visually stunning. I just wish some of the beginning scenes didn't look so inferior.