Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 35mm DTS Drop Out Sounds Like Boat Horn

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Posted by Chris Haller (Member # 9206) on 04-05-2018, 11:53 PM:

So, I attended a screening of a Paramount archive print of Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Kahn tonight here in Rochester at our Kodak Center theater. They're running 2 DP70 projectors with DTS soundheads hooked into an XD10 DTS processor for digital sound, and who knows what for analog.

During the changeover from reel 5 to reel 6, the sound dropped out and kind of tuned into two large, loud tones that resembled boat horns - my mother turned to me and asked if the Titanic had pulled into port in the theater. The sound was quickly fixed, and life moved on and we got to watch Kirk say his goodbyes to Spock.

I asked the projectionist that ran the print, who I've known for years, and he said that the film was just slightly out of alignment when it was running through the projector, which was something he delicately fixed without forcing the projector to stop. He's been running film since the 60s, and has worked for Kodak for a long time, and practically rebuilt the DP70s when Kodak asked him if they could run 5/70 through them during the Hateful Eight run, so I trust that this was the case.

But, my question is, is this a normal thing that occurs during the process where DTS time code reading fails and attempts to drop to analog sound, or was this just a one time fluke due to the alignment issues? It was almost interesting, but also a little startling to experience.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-06-2018, 12:58 AM:

It's probably the sound of the optical soundtrack misaligned laterally. You're probably hearing the sprocket holes and/or frame lines.

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 04-06-2018, 01:11 AM:

DTS use to have a low freq tone at the end of the reels. Sounds like the next reel did not pick up at the change-over.

Posted by Mike Schulz (Member # 4297) on 04-06-2018, 02:03 AM:

I agree with Stephan on this one. If it was a 5/70 print with DTS timecode on it, then it had to be a relatively recent re-printing of the film and likely doesn't even have an analog (mag) track to fall back on.

I could be wrong but every single 5/70 print with DTS timecode on it that I've seen did not have a mag track at all. It's DTS or bust with those prints.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-06-2018, 08:00 AM:

The timecode occupies the same real estate as one of the stripes. I don't think it would be physically possible to make a "magoptical" DTS 70 print.

I've heard various different versions of this, but my understanding is that mag striping of release print stock was killed by the conversion from acetate to polyester release printing in the late 1990s, the reason being that the only way anyone was able to figure out how to bind the oxide strip to polyester film base required the use of 1,1,1,trichloroethane, which is a highly toxic and greenhouse gas-causing chemical.

The use of 1,1,1 was effectively outlawed by the Montreal Protocol for all except a very small number of medical, research and defense applications. As a side note, it was also used in ultrasonic film cleaning machines in labs and archives until the late 1990s, and none of the politically correct alternatives come anywhere close to matching its performance for this application.

So unless someone manages to design an alternative chemistry for mag striping polyester that doesn't fall foul of environmental regulators, we're not going to see any more new mag striped prints being made.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 04-06-2018, 08:30 AM:

I didn't know they made any new 70mm D.T.S time code prints of The Wrath Of Khan! That's amazing!

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 04-06-2018, 09:44 AM:

I think Chris said it was a 35mm screening. Sounds to me like it just tailed out - two loud buzzes ? Maybe the DTS dropped out or there was some timecode missing ? Sam - surely if the analogue was so far out that there were loud horn noises, the thing wouldn't run satisfactorily ? Hearing the DTS or image sounds more like a quiet "whoop whoop" and a distinctive 24hz humm .. (will sing it to you - are you in Vegas this year ?)

Posted by Chris Haller (Member # 9206) on 04-06-2018, 09:46 AM:

Sorry if the above info was confusing - this was a 35mm print made in 2009 for the Paramount archives. Most likely an archive print made shortly after they restored the film in 2K for the 2009 issuing of the original Star Trek films on Blu-ray. I was just trying to add some credibility to our projectionist's claims by stating his intimate knowledge of the projectors.

I doubt Paramount would ever be likely to make a 5/70 blow up of anything Star Trek related, considering they're still using their 2009 print run of Kahn to send out to theaters like the one we saw. They never even made proper Blu-ray masters of any of the other TOS and TNG films, instead issuing rough DVD 1080p masters. Bleh.

They did create a 4K master of TWOK a few years back, resulting in a brand new Director's Cut Blu-ray, but we never got a 4K UHD Blu-ray release of that master. If they were to make new prints, it would most likely use this version as a source. But I certainly wouldn't hold my breath.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-06-2018, 10:36 AM:

quote: Peter Hall
Sam - surely if the analogue was so far out that there were loud horn noises, the thing wouldn't run satisfactorily ?

Maybe he did not finish the rebuild? Who needs an optical track anyway these days? LOL

I will be in Vegas with Kim and Stephan. See you there?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-06-2018, 11:22 AM:

Guys, I don't think this is a "DTS" print at all. I think it was just a reprint. None of my documents show DTS ever mastering a Wrath of Kahn print.

I think the analog reader was a bit off and the "boat horn" was just the sound of the sprockets being captured.

Just because someone is using a DTS XD10P (as in XD10 "P"rocessor) in no way means you are hearing DTS digital audio. If that was the case every print ever played on a CP650 would have a Dolby SRD Digital soundtrack and we know that's not the case.

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 04-06-2018, 04:08 PM:

Over the last 15 years or so, we've played this show several times, most often using this print from 2009. All the inspection reports indicate that it has an SR.D digital track (only), nothing else. In 2012, we ran a recently-made DCP version, as well. No 70mm prints (and our programmers beat the bushes to track down obscure & hidden prints, for sure!), no DTS. It still leaves the question as to what happened and what sound process was being used at the time.

Posted by Chris Haller (Member # 9206) on 04-06-2018, 04:16 PM:

You know, I just assumed it was DTS because of the XD10. Thanks for correcting me - as a guy on the outside who doesn't have access to this kind of info very easily, I never would have known otherwise. So I appreciate the correction, and apologize for spreading confusing information due to my ignorance.

It must've been analog - we didn't actually discuss whether it was DTS or analog, I just made a blind assumption. I do know for a fact that they only have a DTS reader and Dolby SR analog capabilities. That's about where my knowledge ends unfortunately. I've seen both Dunkirk and Phantom Thread in 5/70 at this location using DTS on the 70mm print, but I remember speaking with this projectionist when they ran a print of Frozen for Kodak employees and their families, and he made a point out of having to run Frozen using analog because Disney didn't send any discs in the can!

Posted by Peter Foyster (Member # 9599) on 04-06-2018, 11:29 PM:

I am aware of a 5/70 print of Star Trek 3, with mag sound track and good colour. I assume that ST3 was not one of the most sought after of the ST series.