Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Lubrication of old Simplex

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Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 10-27-2018, 10:11 PM:

I have a pair of old regular Simplex's that run nice but haven't been checked or lubed for over 20years. I've read the discussions about oil. Haven't obtained a quart of Simplex oil or Capella yet, but have a bottle of "refrigeration oil" which I presume is mineral oil. I happen to have several spare intermittents, including one identical to ones in these machines, so I've studied the insides and noted the two tiny "oil sight" windows. This is the model with the oil cup instead of pair of oil tubes on back. I don't see any provision for draining unit while in the machine. SO, my MAIN questions at the moment are:
1.How much oil do I add?
2.How do I use the "oil sight" windows?
Since this is my first post on your wonderful site, let me bore you for a few moments on who I am. I'm a retired electro/mechanical engieer, will be 78 in January. My "home theatre" has a soundproofed booth, 33ft throw to 10ft screen. I have about 75 old features on 16mm that I screen with a pair of projectors. Deciding I was never going to do outside shows anymore, I just sold a pair of Super Simplex's with WE soundheads and Peerless Magnarc lamps scrounged from an old theatre about 25yrs ago. I kept my half dozen 'scope 4 star 35mm features and the scope lenses so I could still screen them with this other pair of regular Simplex's that were given to me. I got some large format experience helping a friend operate the IOKA theatre in Exeter, NH for 8-10yrs starting in mid 90's. We were running a pair of Brenkert BX-80's with Ashcroft lamps. The IOKA opened in the fall of 1915 with "Birth of a Nation" and remained in commercial operation until closed just a few years ago. The brenkerts had 6,000ft magazines and we used a tooth belt to lock motors in sync and to run 3D. Once a year, folks came from 5hrs away to watch "House of Wax", since I think we were the only venue east of the Mississippi still set up for two strip 3D.
BACK TO NOW: I don't have room in my booth for both Simplex's and will just be running a reel at a time. REASON I've dusted off this old gem is a fellow who picked up about 500 reels of 35mm on ebay, lugged them home from Chicago, has no equipment and wants to view some of his cache.
SO...before racking up some hours I want to make sure lube is OK!
OH YEAH, as Columbo says, "one more thing": for compact indoor lamp, I have ELH quartz lamp mounted on shutter cage and a 10 qt. stainless soup bowl from Walmart on back of cage, with a 4" muffin fan for cooling.
I've had a frustrating time these last couple days waited for administrator approval because NONE of the downloadable documentation matches these machines. The have no ID plates on them. The spend their final commercial years at the Hampton Casino over on the seacoast. The Ballantyne sound heads have consecutive serial numbers: 3634 and 3635.
One of you gentlement stated that Simplex's are about indestructible, and here's testimony to that: When electricians removed them at Hampton Casino THEY TOSSED THEM OUT OF BOOTH--ABOUT A 14FT DROP ONTO A WOODEN FLOOR AND THEY SURVIVED! One had a little slop in the shutter, but still ran OK--one of the support arm castings broke but was riding in place. I have several "parts" heads from that theatre where I got the Supers, so replaced the shutter shaft bracket and all was well.
OK, enough yak for now. Will await answers from you fine experienced gentlement!

Posted by Ed Inman (Member # 2583) on 10-28-2018, 09:18 AM:

I've got a pair of Supers. 20 lb. non detergent machine oil is generally sufficient. I try to keep the oil levels in the intermittent windows about half full when the framing knob is in the center position. Others may have a more scientific answer for you. It's generally pretty hard to over-oil an old Simplex. The old joke is that you know they need oil as soon as they stop leaking so best to keep a pan under them. My projectors also have Ballantyne Model 6 soundheads. Working ones are extremely rare in the U.S. these days and no parts are available but fortunately both of mine are still running well. I think you are the only other person I've ever known to still be running those. Good luck!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-28-2018, 02:17 PM:

Well, of course you use Simplex Oil. You can get it from either Ballantyne-Strong or Edw. H. Wolk in Chicago. LOL... Ha!

Good luck with those [Eek!]

!

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-28-2018, 06:14 PM:

Mark,

Don't be a jerk. This guy is new and does not know you.

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 10-28-2018, 06:20 PM:

Sam it should stay that way for his own sake. - Lol

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 10-28-2018, 06:35 PM:

quote: Craig Hardy
I have ELH quartz lamp mounted on shutter cage and a 10 qt. stainless
soup bowl from Walmart on back of cage, with a 4" muffin fan for cooling.

Very creative- - I'd love to see a picture.

quote:
NONE of the downloadable documentation matches these machines.
The have no ID plates on them

A photo or two might also help someone here to identify exactly
what you've got.

- - - i'm just sayin....

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-28-2018, 08:00 PM:

quote: Craig Hardy
I don't see any provision for draining unit while in the machine. SO, my MAIN questions at the moment are:
1.How much oil do I add?
2.How do I use the "oil sight" windows?

Drain the intermittent and start with fresh oil. Remove the screw and washer(s) as shown in the attached drawing (and don't lose the washer(s) that may stay in the hole when you remove the screw). Rotate the framing knob until the drain hole is at bottom, so all the oil will come out.

When it's empty, close the oil drain and rotate the framer to the middle of its travel. Use a flashlight to view the oil sight glass while slowly adding oil (it takes a few seconds to reach the case). You want the oil level to be at least halfway up on the sight glass when the intermittent/framer is at mid position (that is, when the intermittent movement is LEVEL). As long as you can see the oil midway on the glass when it's in this position, you're okay. If not, slowly add oil until you make it so.

Use 20 wt oil, as Ed suggested.

Also, make sure you add 2-3 drops of oil to each oil tube on the mechanism, wait a few minutes, and rotate the mechanism by hand to let it distribute. Then add a couple more drops to each tube. You may want to repeat this several times, since they've been sitting a long time. The shafts and sleeve bearings are most certainly needing some fresh oil at this late date.

Using the projector as infrequently as you do, I'd place a drop of oil in each tube prior to each screening session. In a fully operational theatre, they'd get oiled weekly. Although, I knew a projectionist who oiled his daily (1 drop in each tube). The oil drain bottle under the sound head would fill fast, but those machines ran uber-quiet.

CAVEATS:
- This presumes you indeed have a Simplex Standard (regular) or a Super, and not an E7.
- If I have overlooked anything or misspoken, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 10-28-2018, 09:16 PM:

Thanks everyone for all the help!
Sure, I'll post a few pics, compressed for fast sending after I figure out how to do it!

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 10-29-2018, 08:51 PM:

Relevant reply found here

http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f1/t012362.html

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 10-29-2018, 10:31 PM:

Simplex Standards...Almost unstoppable with many used in drive ins all around Western Australia. Many were modified to take a water cooled jacket for the gate as anything over about 50A on the arc lamp would make the gates stinking hot and cause new-ish film to grab in the gate area. (Film Guard would stop that totally)
Swines of things to thread in a hurry but uber reliable.
A pair of those were still in use at Koorda Drive In WA up until 35mm film releases ended here in Australia in 2014/5.
They would sit idle for 4 weeks and then get a bit of a quick clean and lube and away they would go just purring along and do a double feature session & then sit idle again for another 4 weeks.
They were paired with very early Westrex "pull thru" sound heads 206B I think from memory which was quite good enough for a DI.
Still have one sitting in my back shed and a few bits and pieces.

Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 10-29-2018, 11:47 PM:

Wesley!
You're pretty far from New Hampshire--the internet really ties us together sometimes!
Yeah many seem to attest to reliability of these old Simplex's.
My friend at IOKA where we ran the dual shutter Brenkerts has no use for Simplex. Sure the Brenkerts are special, but anything that will serve as well as you describe certainly deserves praise.
I've never run water cooled gates but heard about 'em. Eyeballed a couple of those big drive in lamps in storage in basement of IOKA. 13mm carbons at 135 amps is some serious fire and heat!
We were only running 8's and 7's at 70 amps in the Ashcrofts on the Brenkerts. 35ft screen, 88ft throw. 600 seats.

Removed the soup bowls and snapped couple pics to show those curious about my ELH lamp cob job:

PICS OF MY ONE OF MY STANDARDS FOR JIM:

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 10-30-2018, 02:57 AM:

Nicely kept bit of old gear. By far a lot cleaner than many of the Simplex I encountered in drive in use.
Interesting that the Shutter Timing knob pops out the operating side just below the Framer.
All units I have ever encountered had the shutter timing knob on the front plate with a locking screw just inside the front plate. Possibly to stop accidental knob movement in error for the Focus knob. [Smile]

Most of the Simplexes used here in drive ins had a modified front plate which was quite hefty being made from cast aluminium and fitted with a swing over Anamorphic lens holder assembly.
The original Simplex front plate as on yours was a simple diecast plate so not able to carry the weight of a Anamorphic lens.
Locally the plates were made by Hartland Cinemax who also made a modified shutter housing and all sold through RCA in Australia.

Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 10-30-2018, 07:35 PM:

Some of you may be laughing when I stated I'd pull front of intermittent out to replace oil sight while leaving main body in machine. UH huh, just eyeballed and can see frame blocks that.
SO, for now I'm going to "cheat" and stick a new sight window on outside, de-greasing with acetone first, and then using JB Quik weld. If it doesn't last I'll have to pull unit out back and do things the right way...

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 10-31-2018, 12:49 AM:

Hi Craig.

Most Regular Simplex machines will have been modified more or less extensively in the course of their long lives. The nameplates usually go when the front cover is replaced, due to metal fatigue or lens mount upgrade etc. The original serial number, up to six digits, can be found stamped into the rear vertical edge of the main projector frame. It can be difficult to see on rear shutter machines, and is probably covered by dirt and grease. There are some people on this forum who can work out the date of manufacture from the serial number. Although IPC offered a rear-shutter model direct from the factory, the majority of these machines would have begun their lives with front shutters. Lots of manufacturers offered after-market modifications to all aspects of the projector - including rear shutters, dual shutters, gates, gears, lens mounts, apertures, and external covers. Differences in detail might explain why yours don't match the literature. The basic mechanism should still resemble the original manuals.
A very experienced projectionist told me many years ago that if you were doing two shows a day (Matinee and Evening) the Regular Simplex must be oiled before each show, but if there was a third session you could get away with oiling it before the first and half way through the second show. (And woe betide you if you didn"t!)
Another fellow, recounting his experience in the old days out in the suburbs said you oiled the machine thoroughly every day without fail, and if you heard a funny noise coming from it during the show, you rushed over to the machine, threw open the little door at the back and squirted oil all over everything - and hoped that the funny noise went away!
Cheers.

Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 10-31-2018, 09:28 AM:

WHAT ABOUT 3 IN 1 OIL FOR SIMPLEX?
I'm having a hard time finding any non detergent SAE 20 locally.
ACCEL 60318 is ND 20, but all stores I've called today don't stock it.
3 in 1 goes back to 1894, and from what I can tell from reading it is a plain machine oil, maybe thinner than SAE 20, and the ORIGINAL Simplex oil circa 1910 was very thin--think I read it was about 7.5.
IF suitable for use on these old Simplex's, the container with long pull-out clear tube spout makes it IDEAL for oiling these projectors.
COMMENTS, ANYBODY???

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-31-2018, 12:29 PM:

The original simplex oil was a SAE#20 non detergent anything lighter and it will just leak out and do no good Also most other oils contain some waxes that will cause a big issue
Starting with the XL the oil became a Compressor based oil called cappella that was approx SAE10ish
Simplex soundhead oil was SAE40 non detergent

Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 10-31-2018, 12:42 PM:

Thanks Gordon.
I'm no finding any ND 20 locally, but ND 30 and 40 is readily available. Should I use the heavier oil in my Ballantyne model 6 sound heads?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-01-2018, 10:15 AM:

The number 40 is good in most sound head gear boxes

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-01-2018, 12:28 PM:

I highly reccomeond you use Mobil-1 synthetic Gear Lube in your sound head gear box, 80 weight equivelent. You will probably not experience any wear at all in your gears running reel by reel and in cinemas where we went though a bronze gear every 4 to 6 years in platter operations the Mobil-1 Gear Lube pretty much doubled the bronze gear life span. Bronze gears and the worm gears were not "Simplex or RCA Quality in later years" they were Wolk quality and typically unhardened steel and the cheapest bronze he could acquire. For the projector use what Gord reccomends, but again, an equivelent synthetic if you can find it is far far superior...

Mark

Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 11-01-2018, 10:17 PM:

Thanks guys.
One of the sight windows on intermittent was disintegrated, so I mad a new one and glued it on from the outside with JB Quik. Felt like a brain surgeon, carefully degreasing with acetone on Q tips, then using dental tools to apply the JB. Added oil and ran it a bit--no leaks.
But I'd like to do the job right and install new sights from the back.
I've practiced removal and re-installation of the intermittent with a junker head. Since I haven't found any "step by step" instructions for the procedure let me ask you experts:
If I remove the two gears to get at intermittent, then after re-installing intermittent, can I just slip those two gears back on and timing will be OK so long as I didn't turn the shutter or anything else?
To cut the 1/4" dia windows, I made a quick and dirty hole saw from a piece of brass tubing, then cut the little discs out of a CD case with drill press on slow and oil to prevent heat and smearing when cutting. Photo below.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-03-2018, 05:57 PM:

It'll likely leak done that way, so keep a close eye on the oil level. They didn't earn the name "Simplex Valdeze" for no reason! Keep a drip pan under the thing!
The movement has to be disassembled and the window and it's rubber gasket is then replaced from the inside by removing a round hollow nut that's holding it in.You will also need a new intermittent casing gasket. Its a special, VERY THIN gasket!

Mark

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-03-2018, 07:33 PM:

3 in 1 oil is crap add way too thin for a Simplex movement. I once had a customer try to use that stuff in a Simplex X-L in Kamas, Utah and it really made a mess of the machine mechanically speaking. He was buying it because it was all he could get across the street at the local hardware store... SAE 20 non-detergent would be a better choice or Mobil-1 like Louis mentioned.

Mark

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 11-03-2018, 08:29 PM:

These lubricants are available around here from "Tractor Supply".

There are some special uses for them in the farming equipment sector.

KEN

Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 11-04-2018, 01:26 AM:

Tractor Supply was one of the 10 places I checked here in NH and they didn't carry it.
But I'll keep trying. Thanks guys!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-04-2018, 11:09 AM:

You could order it on line from Tractor Supply if it's not stocked in the store and they'll ship it directly to you. My GF works at TS Home office here in Brentwood (Nashville). People that know she works there ask her about this sort of thing all the time. At any rate, I wold not hesitate to get this synthetic compressor oil and use it. And this supplier is located near you.. Note that ISO 68 is the same as SAE-20 weight for future refrence...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lube-V-Full-Synthetic-Compressor-Oil-Lubricant-Lube-I SO-68-SAE-20-Weight/112923163018?hash=item1a4abeb98a:m:mPh_4SVLSn7d1ifFeSkub9A:rk:6:pf:1

Mark

Posted by Craig Hardy (Member # 10648) on 11-12-2018, 09:19 PM:

Thanks Mark. Bottle of it arrived Saturday from the source you gave.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-13-2018, 04:13 AM:

3 in 1 is too thin. Great you got the right oil to use. Good luck