Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Wenzel "Ace" and Ballantyne model 6 soundhead.

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Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 01-20-2019, 01:51 PM:

Hello.
I am trying to put together a home 35mm setup. I am probably able to purchase either one or 2 Wenzel Ace projectors mounted to Ballantyne model 6 soundheads.

I am wondering how hard it would be to get the set going again after sitting for decades. I know I am going to have to clean out all the old oil and grease and relube. The Ace projectors are simplex standard clones. I know that the Ballantyne model 6 soundheads are not exactly the greatest and parts are nonexistent.

I have never worked with 35mm proper though I have a small 16mm collection and I restore all sorts of mechanical antiques mainly 1890s typewriters. Is this a avenue I should purse or should I look into other options.

Thanks

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-20-2019, 11:47 PM:

Hi Ethan, welcome to Film-Tech.

I hope your purchase price is really cheap...beware of the ebay sellers who say they're "antique" or "vintage" and charge accordingly. Yes they are old, but not worth a lot of money. (Truthfully, most film equipment isn't worth much now anyways.)

They were very nice machines but you'd be better off finding later model projectors, and stay away from Ballantyne anything. (A lot of it is crap.)

Most of the other brands (Simplex, Century, RCA, and Motiograph) still have limited parts availability, but you can still find parts for them (mainly through private parties.)

And if you want to play back your sound in stereo, even stereo cells are still obtainable for Simplex, Century, RCA and Christie. If you want reverse scan readers, most of the above can still be found, even new.

You also need to consider the light source..are you going to run a low wattage Xenon or try to adapt another light source? I have a few Xenon lamphouses available that can do 1-2k lamps. You would need to find a suitable rectifier though. (And most magnetic rectifiers will require three phase 208-240 volt power, though some magnetics and most switcher types can do single phase 208-240.)

Others will also chime in with advice and recommendations, so you'll learn a lot on here. [Smile]

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 01-21-2019, 06:56 AM:

Ya they would be dirt cheap. I would basically be paying scrap value for them. There is a Century C up in the booth of this theater where they are located. It has a soundhead mounted to it. There are several Simplex E-7s and a few XL/35s but no soundheads. I am going to look in another spot for some more soundheads though. There are more projectors then soundheads. There is also a large parts rack with hundreds of parts. I am going to go through them and see what I can find.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-21-2019, 08:36 AM:

I would avoid the Ballantyne model 6 as there is no reverse scan kit for it and the gear box is terrible and the ace is a simplex standard knock off
I would look at the simplex XL

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 01-21-2019, 09:04 AM:

I should also mention that Century C in the booth has the newer readers installed and last ran 8 years ago.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-21-2019, 10:06 AM:

quote: Ethan Singree
Ya they would be dirt cheap. I would basically be paying scrap value for them. There is a Century C up in the booth of this theater where they are located. It has a soundhead mounted to it. There are several Simplex E-7s and a few XL/35s but no soundheads. I am going to look in another spot for some more soundheads though. There are more projectors then soundheads. There is also a large parts rack with hundreds of parts. I am going to go through them and see what I can find.

Since you're basically saying scrap value, it is not a bad idea at all.

If you can get the Century C setup with updated readers, do it. The readers alone are worth it.

If the Century's soundhead has an intermediate gear between it and the projector head, IIRC you can even put one of the Simplex heads on it with the right replacement gears. Been years since I dealt with it, maybe Gordon or John Eickhof could confirm if it is possible.

Finally, if you can find a Simplex sh1000 or "5 star" soundhead (belt driven) available somewhere those would also be a great choice. The 5-star isn't the greatest, but if you search the FT site there is a modification that will make it better.

The Simplex XL would have the best availability of parts even today. (And if you can pick up a spare head in the deal and have the space to store it, do it.) Though with the spare parts rack you mentioned, it may be better to sort through that.

Another thought: Regardless of what projector you get, make an offer on the full lot of the spare parts. You can probably recoup a lot more than you spend if you have the time to inventory the parts then resell them on our for sale forum here.

Are you getting any lamphouses/rectifiers as part of this deal?

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 01-21-2019, 11:10 AM:

There are several lamphouses in various states of disrepair Strong, Motiograph, Brenkert and Peerless carbon arcs and Christie and Eprad xenons. THe xenons take 240v power as far as I know. All are in the 2k-3k range I think. A bit big for a home setup. I was going to build my own lamphouse with a halogen bulb like the 16mm projectors use.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-21-2019, 12:00 PM:

The Wenzel Ace is the same gear train as a Standard or Super Simplex.so the gears, provided they are spiral bevel, and most shafts are all interchangeable. If the projector gearing is straight bevel it's ok as log as ou have a parts machine. The model 6 sound heads are pretty much an eh. Not adaptable to reverse scam at all. Your best bet is the Century projector in its entirety. Parts are still so,ewjat easy to obtain. You should replace 7 bearings in it first. Use Superlube on the gearing and 20 weight non detergent oil in the intermittent.

Mark

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 01-21-2019, 05:37 PM:

Which 7 bearings would you replace in the Century C.
Are they nominal sizes that I can get at a industrial supply store or are the a nonstandard size.

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 01-21-2019, 06:02 PM:

there are two different bearings used on the c, both are metric bore and can be hard to find (BG-6 & BG-9) so look for these numbers in the parts lot. there are two BG-9 on the shutter shaft, two BG-9 and one BG-6 on the vertical shaft and two BG-6 on the main drive shaft. i can't remember thecommercial part numbers anymore, getting too old i guess! can you post a picture so we can see what model soundhead ? there should be a nameplate indicating the model, ie: R-3, R-6, ETC.

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 01-21-2019, 06:29 PM:

I do not have any photos of it. I should be back out there saturday. Looking at the parts diagram for the Century I think there is a NOS gate out there among the parts stash.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 01-22-2019, 02:27 PM:

Like everyone else said take the century C machine and its soundhead. No brainer.

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 01-22-2019, 08:36 PM:

I will see about getting it this Saturday. I will also look through the parts stash and see if I can find parts that belong to it. I think there is another Century C that is partially taken part with no soundhead that I may be able to throw in on a deal as a parts machine.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-22-2019, 10:35 PM:

That sounds like a good idea. As I mentioned before though, try to get the full parts stash. Since no one really has any new stock of the older machine parts, if you can spare the space (and catalog it thoroughly when you first get it) you can, over time, recoup enough money to make it worth while.

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 05-03-2019, 06:53 AM:

I eventually did get this Century C mounted to a SH-1000.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-03-2019, 09:59 AM:

The SH1000 is excellent but it will self destruct in no time with no oil, use the right soundhead oil (thick stuff) and check level regularly. It has quite a few standard size bearings easily replaced although the cover gaskets ... you will need to make them if the originals are damaged. The gears are no longer available so it's best not to let it go dry and burn up those gears. The gears are different between standard and sync motors - don't try swapping one for the other.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-03-2019, 05:25 PM:

Mobil 1 gear lube gives the longest life out of the gears in a 9030 or SH-1000.

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 05-05-2019, 07:01 AM:

First thing I did to it was reseal the gearbox and refill with gear lube. It leaked everywhere. In the back and on he film side.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 05-05-2019, 01:16 PM:

Sealing an RCA and to a slightly lesser extent, Simplex SH 1000 is easier said than done. Folks have been trying to accomplish that since the 1930's.

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 05-05-2019, 08:50 PM:

Its less of that kind of issue and more of the previous owner never replaced the gaskets when it started to leak at some point. Adding oil was cheaper. I am told he was a big cheapskate.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-05-2019, 11:33 PM:

You can change gaskets all you want and it will still drip - less, but some. Install double sealed bearings all round and leakage goes way way down. Even with new gaskets, the circular bearing retainer covers will all be a bit bent by now and not seal very well. The ones where shafts go through... hadn't oil seals been invented? The oil slingers are, arguably, better than nothing. Not much better.
I do really like these soundheads though. Dreadnought strong, impervious to rust (due to the inevitable coating of gear oil), and the double sprocket isolation loop system eliminates audio flutter from even horribly hooked output sprockets. They also stabilize faster (with less film wear) on startup than "modern" single sprocket soundheads because less flywheel mass is required - plus using those magical fluid flywheels.
If they were still in production, a soundhead like these would cost a ridiculous amount. The move to single sprocket gearless designs was to reduce cost.
Unfortunately they do wear out, the gear that drives the projector (as well as one sprocket) is heavily loaded on startup. I don't know of any source for replacement gears, maybe someone here has a few stashed away but new? forget it.

Posted by Ethan Singree (Member # 10735) on 05-06-2019, 06:33 AM:

I used 1/32" gasket maker when doing this. I did not use the paper type gaskets. Has not leaked for me yet. Both the sprockets are in need or replacement. anybody have some.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 05-06-2019, 09:29 AM:

Just For Fun --> A Wenzel Ace Ad From 1948:

Source: International Projectionist