Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Star Wars (request)

This is topic Star Wars (request) in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 03-21-2003, 11:56 PM:

Hello all. Requesting information on Star Wars in all of its incarnations. I am a member on an a/v forum and no one can ever agree on details for Star Wars on 35mm, or 70mm for that matter. I figured I'd ask people who might actually "really" know. One thing about home theater folks, they think they know film more than they actually do. Thanks!

AJ Garman

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-22-2003, 12:31 AM:

I am going to recomend that Brad may want to move this to another area. I have a feeling it would be more benafical because there may be some conflicting info for this title and will spawn chit chat.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-22-2003, 01:12 AM:

This has been discussed before, inparticularly things like when "episode 4" was added to the crawl. Try searching the FHF or Yak.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 03-22-2003, 01:16 AM:

Thanks Brad. Sorry, I'm a newbie...didn't think about searching the other forums.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-22-2003, 03:51 PM:

...For any of you who are interested in signing a petition to preserve the original trilogy -- that is the original versions of the original trilogy -- then this is a site you should visit.

How effective it will be is anyone's guess but one thing's for sure -- we can guess what will happen if nobody tries.

I'm reading that George Lucas intends to modify the originals even further for their eventual DVD release so that they match the new ones a little more closely. [Roll Eyes]

How much would you be willing to bet that he's gonna milk these new versions for all they're worth and then release the "classic editions" further on up the road to sucker die-hard fans into buying the same thing over and over.

Truth be told, I'm sorry that I ever was a fan.

In other news...

Lucas has announced plans to augment the Indiana Jones trilogy as well. He has already renamed the first one "Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark" for the eagerly awaited DVD release. Additionally, the original installments will feature a digitally enhanced Harrison Ford in the interest of preserving continuity when the recently-announced fourth film is finally added to the...erm...trilogy.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-22-2003, 04:24 PM:

One of the nice thing about collecting movies on laserdics and DVD is the opportunity to acquire them as soon as they go on sale. I already have in my collection the original "STAR WARS" triology in a laserdisc box set exactly as they were originally released to theatres and another box collection of the triology with the new digital corrections the way they were re released to cinemas a few years ago with a new 5.1 Dolby Digital sound mix. Now that I have both the original and the altered versions, Lucas can take his time and do whatever he wants to do with them because I already have the originals. [Big Grin]

-Claude

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-22-2003, 04:30 PM:

I wouldn`t be surprised if Jar-Jar made an appearance in Indiana Jones IV.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-22-2003, 04:31 PM:

I have the original STAR WARS movies on laser as well but one day in the future it's gonna be a real pain to find a player -- and I don't have that many LD's left.

I'm don't want to have to keep a LD player just for these three movies.

What happens if/when these discs succomb to laser rot? I don't plan on waging war on eBay and shelling out $$$ to buy them as a "serious collector."

And furthermore, I'm not thrilled about side changes or disc changes.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-22-2003, 04:34 PM:

It shouldn`t be too difficult these days to find someone who could record and burn the movies on DVDs.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-22-2003, 06:32 PM:

Okay, the guilt has been gnawing at me...

I made up the part about digitally enhancing Harrison Ford but according to The Digital Bits Website the name of the first Indy movie has been changed. They even have a photo of the DVD artwork.

Sorry if I caused anybody to PANIC!!! [Eek!]

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 03-22-2003, 07:47 PM:

quote:
He has already renamed the first one "Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark" for the eagerly awaited DVD release.

The title was changed a few years ago for a VHS re-release...at least on the packaging. Having owned (and still do) the excellent 1992 remastered laserdisc edition, I saw no reason to buy or rent or borrow the VHS edition.

Edited post to add Star Wars data.

quote:
Requesting information on Star Wars in all of its incarnations. I am a member on an a/v forum and no one can ever agree on details for Star Wars on 35mm, or 70mm for that matter.

quote:
This has been discussed before, inparticularly things like when "episode 4" was added to the crawl. Try searching the FHF or Yak.

Are you seeking print specs, or are you trying to account for every minute difference that may exist in the numerous versions of the movie? Some of the content differences were mentioned in the "When did Star Wars become Episode IV?" thread mentioned earlier. If specific differences are what you are seeking then you'll have to ask a more specific question. I did a search here but couldn't locate any print spec info, so if it's print specs you're after, here's some of them. Others feel free to add to them (and move back to Feature Info & Trailer Attachments if desired).

1977 release:

70mm
20th Century Fox
"Full Width" (2.21:1)
Dolby A (41 or 42)
Six reels
121 minutes
Deluxe Lab (print)
Todd-AO (sounding)

35mm
20th Century Fox
Scope (2.39:1)
Dolby A
Six reels
121 minutes
Deluxe Lab

35mm
20th Century Fox
Scope (2.39:1)
Mono
Six reels
121 minutes
Deluxe Lab

• There were also a limited number of IB Tech and 4-track mag prints made

• multiple audio mixes were made - initial batch of prints struck have a different soundtrack compared with prints released after the opening (mostly minor non-sync dialogue and sound effects differences)

• post-Empire re-release prints have a revised opening scroll

1997 Special Edition:
35mm
20th Century Fox
Scope (2.39:1)
SR/SRD/DTS/SDDS
Six reels
125 minutes
Deluxe Lab
Trailer: The Empire Strikes Back

• a 70mm-DTS print was made for special screening(s)

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-23-2003, 12:15 AM:

I could have sworn that all the Star Wars films had seven reels. Of course it has been a while since I handles one.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 03-23-2003, 12:50 AM:

Hello all. That is the gist of what I was looking for Michael. However, does anyone know of some of the differences amongst the different versions? I figured some folks on here have surely handled some of these "various" versions of Star Wars. As for Daryl's comment, I too thought there was7 reels. I thought I heard Rick McCallum say something about it or something. Any thoughts?

AJ Garman

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 03-23-2003, 01:38 AM:

quote:
I could have sworn that all the Star Wars films had seven reels.

Star Wars and Empire were six. Jedi was seven.

I'm pretty sure the reel changes in the longer Special Editions were in the same locations, except for the transition from reel two to three in Star Wars.

quote:
does anyone know of some of the differences amongst the different versions? I figured some folks on here have surely handled some of these "various" versions of Star Wars.

How many versions are you trying to account for? Just theatrical? Or home video as well? Originals vs. Special Editions? (We could post for days comparing originals to Special Editions, which I'd rather not do because I find the original differences to be far more compelling.)

The problem here is that time is an enemy and memory is not a science. Not to mention that another huge problem is that I feel the Internet is a breeding ground for false information. Arguments and conflicting information will forever permeate discussions of this type (but that doesn't mean it isn't still fun to discuss!). For example, people still cannot seem to agree on when Episode IV was added or the number of theaters the film opened in or whether certain scenes were present. I see erroneous or conflicting references to these things in print and certainly on the Internet often.

Having said that, here are a few items of interest concerning the original theatrical versions:

There were at least two and possibly as many as five English-language sound mixes for the original theatrical release. Without being able to identify which versions were which some of the more "obvious" differences include:

• an extra C-3PO line in the Death Star control room scene describing the location of the tractor beam

• a Stormtrooper asks to "Close the blast doors" while chasing after Han and Chewie in a Death Star corridor (the presence of the line makes the ensuing "Open the blast doors" line funnier)

• Aunt Beru's lines were looped by a different actress in at least one version

• in at least one version a Stormtrooper's line is slightly different following knocking on the locked door that R2 and 3PO are hiding behind in Mos Eisley

• in some versions Luke has a line "Blast it Wedge, where are you?" during the Death Star raid -- in other versions the line is "Blast it Biggs, where are you?"

• a multitude of sound effects and intercom voices are either different takes or completely different sounds throughout some versions

A couple points of controversy:

• many will claim that some early prints included the Luke/Biggs reunion scene in the Rebel hanger

• some will claim that the scene where Chewie scares the Mouse Robot on the Death Star was not present in some early prints

• An Episode IV: A New Hope subtitle was added to the head of the opening scroll at a certain point in time. This is a point of controversy. If you read the "When did Star Wars Become Episode IV?" thread in Film-Yak you can figure out what year I think this occured. Others, naturally, disagree/remember it differently.

• when the Episode IV tag was added, the entire scroll was revised slightly to enable it to remain in sync with the music. In other words, two lines were added but spacing adjustments were made to enable the scroll to still begin and end at the same time as before. The word "rebel" was capitalized (Rebel) in one version and was lowercase (rebel) in the other

• in some early versions Han fires first. [Smile]

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 03-23-2003, 03:46 PM:

That http://www.originaltrilogy.com/ website is interesting, but they only want Lucas to preserve the first three films on DVD.

I found no mention of film prints, so we will never see anything on the big screen except the so-called Special Editions which I detested. [Mad]

There is a fine book called THE CUTTING ROOM FLOOR by Raymond Bouzereau that has fascinating fact about Director`s Cuts, censorship and multiple versions.
The book says that when Steven Spielberg made the CLOSE ENCOUNTERS special edition, he demanded that both old and new versions remain available for theatre booking. I have no idea whether they kept the promise...

But I cannot imagine that anybody will Lucas make change his mind about the original versions - but maybe his dark empire will crumble when a Hobbit throws the Master DVD into the Fiery Mountain? [Big Grin]

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-24-2003, 09:25 AM:

supposedly when Luke returns to the rebel base after destroying the deathstar he comes down the ladder of his fighter to greeted by the princes. But instead of saying the characters name he says Carrie.

In the first boxset laserdisc the scene in Jedi where luke throws his lightsaber away when fighting Vader near the end. The sound effect is missing for the light sabber hitting the floor. This was corrected for the Seperate remastered discs with the new artwork.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 02-12-2014, 12:10 PM:

It has been 3978 days since the last post.

Posted by David Brown (Member # 8121) on 02-12-2014, 12:10 PM:

Is there any way to know or find out where the
reel breaks were in the original 1977 STAR WARS prints?
(I.E. between which visual scenes/dialog?, and
what dialog cues were you looking for?)

Anyone here a projectionist BACK THEN?

Im old enough to be, and I myself can remember a couple
obvious breaks having seen the film more than 20 times in
1977 (in only a couple different theaters). But Id like
to know definitively.

Im talking more about ANH than anything else, but if you
know about the other episodes too, plz chime in.

-dave

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 02-13-2014, 01:33 AM:

quote: David Brown
Is there any way to know or find out where the reel breaks were in the original 1977 STAR WARS prints?

Reel 1 begins, obviously, with the 20th Century-Fox logo. Reel 1 ends with the fade-out as Luke and the droids head toward the Lars homestead following the droid purchase.

Reel 2 begins with the fade-in as C-3PO is lowered into the oil bath. "Oh, thank the maker. This oil bath is going to feel so good." Reel 2 ends on the Death Star following Tarkin's line, "We will then crush the rebellion with one swift stroke." *

Reel 3 begins with Luke, Ben and the droids discovering the dead jawas. Reel 3 ends on the Millennium Falcon following Ben's line, "That's good. You've taken your first step into a larger world."

Reel 4 begins on the Death Star with an officer reporting to Tarkin regarding Leia's claim that the Rebel Base was located on Dantooine. Reel 4 ends in the trash compactor mid-scene.

Reel 5 begins (mid-scene) in the trash compactor. Reel 5 ends in the Rebel Base following Han's line, "What are you looking at? I know what I'm doing."

Reel 6 begins with a shot of Rebel ships in the hanger prior to a brief dialogue scene between Luke and Leia before Luke boards his ship. Reel 6 ends, obviously, at the tail end of the end credits.

* On the 1997 Special Edition prints, Reel 2 was extended by one scene to accommodate the addition of the Jabba the Hutt scene in Reel 3.

Posted by David Brown (Member # 8121) on 02-18-2014, 07:27 AM:

Thanks, Michael.

Actually, I remembered four of the five breaks precisely,
but the 4-5 transition really puzzled me. I couldn't believe
that George Lucas (proud film-editor) would do a reel-break
in the middle of a tense scene like that. But, on the other
hand, there IS no music playing in the background in the first
half of that scene -- before the walls start moving. After that,
the menacing music is pounding persistently.

-Dave

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 02-18-2014, 03:56 PM:

quote: David Brown
Actually, I remembered four of the five breaks precisely, but the 4-5 transition really puzzled me. I couldn't believe that George Lucas (proud film-editor) would do a reel-break in the middle of a tense scene like that.

It's certainly more common to place a reel break at the end of a scene, but at 121 minutes on six reels they would not have had too many options since all the reels would've been pretty full and most scenes in the movie transitioned with a wipe. Music is heard at the very beginning of the trash compactor scene, and the final line of dialogue of that scene is too close to the scene cut, so those were probably deemed a poor place for a reel change and may explain why the changeover was chosen to be mid-scene.

quote: David Brown
But, on the other hand, there IS no music playing in the background in the first half of that scene -- before the walls start moving. After that, the menacing music is pounding persistently.

Yes, the music doesn't play until after the changeover to Reel 5. The 4-to-5 changeover, by the way, occurred following Luke's line, "I don't know. It's like the whole thing has disappeared." The first shot of Reel 5 is a medium shot of Leia followed by Han's line, "I've got a bad feeling about this." (I just realized I didn't state that in my earlier post.)

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-22-2014, 12:24 PM:

I am not sure a film editor is at all concerned about the content of the scene he/she chooses to break a reel. The primary concern is that there is no music and that there is no close interaction dialog. You don't want to break where one actor says a line and the other follows up immediately with a counterline. In theory any good projectionist in the day could make a change-over accurate enough to accomodate that kind of tight change-over placement.

The one that comes to mind is in CAMELOT at the end of R1 where King Arthur is explaining the wonders of Camelot to Gueniviere and he says "...and the leaves just wisk away...at night, of course." She laughs and immediately says, "Of course." The main rule is never to break with music crossing the change-over point, although there must have been instances where there was no choice. That rule made for some very odd reel configurations when it came to musicals. MY FAIR LADY wound up with some very short reels in order to avoid marring the music. In a "normal" movie of that length (170min), you wouldn't need to break it into 12 reels!

As platters became the norm, editors were not nearly as careful about where they placed their reel breaks as they were in earlier years.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 02-22-2014, 05:03 PM:

I remember some very tight changeovers. Most operators would routinely thread up on Academy 8, but for the very tight scenes if you threaded up on Academy 9 you'd catch it every time.

"Thoroughly Modern Millie" comes to mind where a changeover occurred during a scene where Julie Andrews was delivering a soliloquy. In addition to testing your changeover skills it would definitely show the accuracy of your projector alignment.