This is topic DVD pauses after the 3rd reel in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Laurence Till (Member # 350) on 03-11-2003, 03:41 PM:
 
Has anyone else noticed that when viewing a DVD there is a pause after the 3rd reel (after approx. 60 minutes)? It only indicates to me that the studios are having techno-nerds converting to the DVD format and not projectionists. I just wanted to know if it upsets anyone else as much as it upsets me. You pay a very high price to own a film and see that you could make a better presentation of the flick than some guy who doesn't seem to have a clue about change overs. That's my gripe. Thanks for reading. If you feel the same way and have noticed this apparent flaw in DVD technology, please voice your views.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-11-2003, 03:44 PM:
 
Are you talking about a brief "freeze" in the action, like a fraction of a second? That's probably the layer transition. Don't all dual-layer DVDs do that when the transition is made from one layer to the other? Some players make the layer change more quickly, but as far as I've read, the pause is unavoidable.
 

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Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 03-11-2003, 03:49 PM:
 
Laurence,
Chances are, you are actually seeing your DVD player switching the layer it is reading off of the disc rather than a bad transfer or digitization process. It seems to be an issue no matter how good a player you have as well. It is annoying though.

EDIT: Um, yeah, what David said, His post wasn't there when I hit reply.
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 03-11-2003, 04:05 PM:
 
Yes, layer change. It can happen at any point in the movie, not just halfway through. It all depends on what else is on the disc (extras, etc.)
 

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Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 03-11-2003, 04:38 PM:
 
A quick way to tell is to check the DVD packaging for the letters "RSDL" (reverse spiral dual layer). If you see those, there's no doubt that at some point the DVD will freeze for a moment.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-11-2003, 04:42 PM:
 
There are some dual laser players that can do seemless layer transitions. I know JVC has one, but I can't remember what model number it is -- I haven't used it in a couple years and don't have it here.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-11-2003, 04:43 PM:
 
It's really bad when watching a DTS DVD, as for some reason it seems to take longer for the sound to restore itself than when in Dolby Digital. DTS on DVD seems to be an afterthought.
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-11-2003, 04:55 PM:
 
I guess when one complains about that brief freeze they never have experienced a side change on a laser disc player. Some players do perform this task much quicker. What needs to be developed is a way for the DVD player to store the information for a few seconds at the layer change so that when the next layer picks up it will be like a seemless action. You would never know that this change occured.
 

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Posted by Paul Goulet (Member # 297) on 03-11-2003, 04:57 PM:
 
Laurence:

Thats cuzz you buy cheap-O DVDS...

P.S. Did you get my Fish money??
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 03-11-2003, 05:05 PM:
 
So the picture freezes for a couple seconds...big deal. Some of us remember having to get up and physically turn over a laserdisc. And the "auto-flip" players still took longer to switch sides than a DVD layer change. And before that, commercial interruptions on TV. A small price to pay for getting a complete movie in a high-quality format. Get over it!

To the original poster who dislikes these layer-changes (now that he knows that's what they are), there are a number of DVDs of movies with long running times released that are split across two sides. So...if, for instance, you want The Color Purple, but don't want to see the image freeze for a couple seconds, then buy the earlier version. If you can get up out of your seat, eject the disc, turn it over, and press play in less time than the layer change, let me know. I'd be impressed.
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 03-11-2003, 05:24 PM:
 
I have the "layer change freeze for a second" thing to, but sometimes it freezes at other points as well. The next time I play the DVD it doesn't do it. I can imagine the laser running along burning debris out of the way.....
Maybe it's dust or something?
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-11-2003, 07:05 PM:
 
Let me say this DO NOT TREAT YOUR DVD'S LIKE CD'S. Do not scratch them do not get finger prints on them or it will screw things up like crazy. Just a little fleck could cause your player to freeze if it interupts the laser. Also do not put anything on top of your DVD player. It will cause it to overheat causing problems and unwanted side effects.
 

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-11-2003, 08:37 PM:
 
Buy a better DVD player that transitions layers quicker.

I think it's great that the DVD engineeres put the layer change at the same point as a reel change. Imagine what it would look/sound like if the change occcured mid-sceene.
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-11-2003, 08:56 PM:
 
Mike wrote:

quote:

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layer change at the same point as a reel change.
Imagine what it would look/sound like if the change occured mid scene.

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Sometimes its at a reel change. But it can happen anytime on the
disc. Just like in past posts on this thread have said.
It does happen mid-scene. Watch the movie "What's Love Got to
Do With It" The change on that disc happens just before a song
happens. Tina is going on stage and the change happens, so you
have a break in the soundtrack.
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 03-12-2003, 01:51 AM:
 
Typically, a layer transition will occur at a chapter change.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-12-2003, 10:14 AM:
 
You would have thought that the pause could easily be avoided by building a small memory into the player (50mb should do it easily) that can store 10-20 seconds of video, like the buffer in a CD writer or the memory in a CD walkman that enables it to be 'jog proof'. The video would simply play from memory during the layer change, after which the player would read ahead to restore the full buffer.
 

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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 03-12-2003, 01:37 PM:
 
It IS possible to do pauseless layer changes- Universal did this on some of their earlier titles. I watched "The Deer Hunter", which runs 3 hours, with no pause whatsoever- I even looked inside the player while it was running and could tell it went through a layer change but did not pause. Of course, the only reason I was watching it was because a customer had returned it saying it wouldn't play on her player, so that's probably why they do it the other way now.
If they are going to have it pause, they should only do it at reel changes. I've seen some where it pauses mid-sentence, very annoying.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-12-2003, 01:50 PM:
 
They may have drastically dropped the bit-rate before and after the layer change so as not to have a buffer under-run. Some players can't handle that, become unstable and crash. OR they could have done something else.

Like Leo said, if there was a larger buffer the transition delay could be avoided on more players. At an 8Mbit datarate you would only need 0.76MB of buffer space per second. So an 8MB buffer would likely be more than sufficient. The problem is the larger a buffer used, the harder timing becomes, which makes it harder to maintain stability without increasing component cost. Since the average consumer wants to buy a DVD player for $100 and probably doesn't notice and/or care about layer transition delay, you're probably not going to see a player than incorporates a larger buffer. That and manufactureres avoid using much ram in their systems at all costs due to the volatile and price gouging nature of the memory industry.

Besides, a dual laser player will already do seemless changes and not too many of those players are purchased.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-12-2003, 01:54 PM:
 
Who needs a dual-layer player? Wouldn't it be easier just to get two players, two copies of the disk, and Steve Guttag to do the changeover?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-12-2003, 02:29 PM:
 
I do believe I remember having a conversation with Steve regarding him doing this with Laserdiscs.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-12-2003, 02:41 PM:
 
All movies on laserdiscs in the CLV mode under two hours were easy to fit on a sincle discs compared to the required two in CAV because of the limited 30 minute playing time per side. All three of my laserdisc players can play both sided of a disc so having to get up and filp a disc has not been too much of a problem for me. Whenever I have to change a disc after two hours is a blessing because of the need to go to the bathroom or get more snacks. The layer change on RSDL DVDs had never bothered me at all since I started to buy and watch them when they were first introduced in March 1997.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-12-2003, 03:47 PM:
 
Yeah but Steve used two video projectors for that, he'd want you to have two televisions.
 

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Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 03-12-2003, 05:49 PM:
 
Its funny that sometimes you can overlook something that is so obvious until someone points it out. Today I was watching a DVD and noticed the pause. I had never noticed it until I read this thread.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-12-2003, 06:41 PM:
 
Let me spoil movies for you even more. Go to 'the movies' and watch the upper right hand corner of the screen... you'll see some cue marks once in a while. Later when watching the movie outside of a theatre you'll be able to tell everyone you're watching it with that 'this shot' had the cue marks right, wait, right here.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-12-2003, 07:39 PM:
 
We used to do LaserDisc changeovers at my old theater for old shows and special programs. We'd get two copies of each disc and program the machine with the out and in frames of each side. We'd have to change the disc on one player while the other was playing, but to the audience it was 100% seemless. You can see pictures of this machine in the UA Greenwood Plaza 12 updated pictures which are not in the Picture Warehouse yet. But you can get to them if you scroll waaaaaaay down on the main page. The pics in the Picture Warehouse are all messed up for UA Greenwood, so don't bother.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-13-2003, 11:01 AM:
 
What would be even better than adding the memory buffer just for the layer change would be for the multidisk players to cue up the 2nd disk in the movie (like LOTR, Dances With Wolves DTS, etc), or the second side of the disk for the rest of the movie (like The Stand), and keep playing without a hitch. That would of course require software changes on the disks too.

Just thinking ahead to what the next gripe would be if they work out the layer change pause.
 

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Posted by Dave Michelsen (Member # 1639) on 03-13-2003, 02:08 PM:
 
Most of the DVD authoring houses nowadays are being very creative in where they code the layer change. Sometimes they even get past me unnoticed. (The momentary audio void usually gives it away even when the change happens on a motionless scene.)

Here’s a little history on layer change. In the beginning there were two dual layer disc formats, one invented by Sony/Phillips called MMCD (Multi Media Compact Disc) and one invented by Toshiba/Warner called SDD (Super Density Disc). The two formats worked in similar ways but were totally incompatible with each other. (Remember VHS vs. Betamax?)

In order to ensure public acceptance of the new home video technology, it was realized that only one format could succeed. Two formats simultaneously introduced would only confuse and turn off the market. To prevent dooming the new technology to a Beta/VHS type war the two sides ultimately agreed to share royalties and create a combination of MMCD and SD that became DVD. One of the pluses of the MMCD that didn’t transition into DVD was a seamless layer change that was accomplished by buffer memory in the player. (I saw the MMCD prototype go through a layer change and there was no hint of the event happening.) In the day, RAM was expensive and would have considerably added to the player cost making them less likely to sell even to early adapters. It was a sacrifice to make what happened happen—DVD is the fastest growing consumer product ever introduced. In their first year 10 times more DVD players were sold than CD player sold in their first year!

DM

[ 03-13-2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Dave Michelsen ]
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-14-2003, 08:22 AM:
 
Here is a link to MediaLine, a trade publication of the optical media industry:

http://www.medialinenews.com
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-14-2003, 09:40 AM:
 
Are there any machines that are immune to the layer change?
 

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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 03-14-2003, 01:42 PM:
 
Another interesting tidbit is when laserdiscs were first being developed, they considered making them dual-layered so instead of turning over the laser would just focus on the 2nd side from the bottom, but they couldn't quite get it to work then.
 

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Posted by Dave Michelsen (Member # 1639) on 03-18-2003, 04:56 PM:
 
I just saw the layer changeover on the new Harry Potter & Chamber of Secrets DVD (street date 4/11). It happens at 1:16:27. Check it out--it is VERY subtle.

DM
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-18-2003, 06:23 PM:
 
Hey Dave,

Someone was telling me that the new special edition DVD for The Matrix was not going to be released prior to the films. Due to the producers saying it was giving to much information out about the new ones. I s this true?
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-18-2003, 06:32 PM:
 
The DVD I made for Screen Attractions does that, too. I just figured it was the authoring software.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-18-2003, 06:33 PM:
 
Yes.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Nate Lehrke (Member # 1460) on 03-18-2003, 06:35 PM:
 
How many hours can you fit on a regular DVD? Is there any difference with the double-sided DVD's & a regular DVD?
 

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Posted by John Lasher (Member # 968) on 03-18-2003, 07:55 PM:
 

quote:

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How many hours can you fit on a regular DVD? Is there any difference with the double-sided DVD's & a regular DVD?

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quote:

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Someone was telling me that the new special edition DVD for The Matrix was not going to be released prior to the films. Due to the producers saying it was giving to much information out about the new ones. I s this true?

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quote:

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Someone was telling me that the new special edition DVD for The Matrix was not going to be released prior to the films. Due to the producers saying it was giving to much information out about the new ones. I s this true?

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