This is topic DVD's May Self Destruct in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 02-03-2003, 02:27 PM:
 
DVD's may self destruct, says Australian Report.
Australian investigators have discovered an increasing number
of deteriorating DVD products. This is from todays IMDB, it was
reported in Saturdays Sydney Morning Herald.

http://us.imdb.com/StudioBrief/#3
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-03-2003, 02:35 PM:
 
I knew it would happen sooner or later. However I do question the whole "3 rentals" thing.

Ya want it to keep for the rest of your life? Go film!
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 02-03-2003, 02:44 PM:
 
My copy of "THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT" developed a 'Rot' and had to be replaced. Many others have also had the same problem with this title as well as others. I have found DVD's to be much better than Lasrdiscs regarding the degradation of the encoded image due to oxidation or other causes. I once had to replace a lot of laserdiscs that were pressed by 3M and that was no fun.

-Claude
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-03-2003, 02:52 PM:
 
If the discs have a delamination problem causing "DVD rot", I don't see how the rental issue has anything to do with anything. If a disc is going to delaminate, it will do it just sitting on a shelf, whether it's the store's shelf or in someone's home.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-03-2003, 02:55 PM:
 
Simple rules for long term storage are COOL, DRY, and VENTED.

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage1.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/molecular.shtml

http://www.rit.edu/~661www1/sub_pages/8page20.htm

Check out SMPTE Recommended Practice RP131:

SMPTE Recommended Practice RP131
 

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Posted by William Leland III (Member # 1400) on 02-03-2003, 04:38 PM:
 
I guess we can assume this would effect Playstation 2 games. They use a DVD format.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-03-2003, 06:01 PM:
 
I already lost two of them to DVD rot. I have lost one CD-R to rot, also.

I'll almost bet DVD and CD - CDR rot was engineered into the product.
 

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Posted by Doug Willming (Member # 728) on 02-03-2003, 06:21 PM:
 
I'd heard other stories about DVD rot. So far, it doesn't seem to be as predominate as Laser rot, but it's still a young format so, who knows. I've probably got 150-200 laserdiscs (many of which I paid $40 or more for pre-DVD, and not nearly as many cool extras, grrrr...). Most of them still look fine. As a matter of fact, I've got some that I think look better than DVD, but it makes me mad when I stick one in after seeing it a year or two ago and finding it unwatchable with rot.
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-03-2003, 07:41 PM:
 
in the early days of CD's they had to change the ink formula because it was eating into the layer of information below it causing the CD's to be unplayable.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-03-2003, 07:49 PM:
 
This is interesting, but not really surprising.

It's sad that many of the newer formats don't seem to have the shelf life of the formats that they are intended to replace. I have some 40+ -year-old LPs that play perfectly and I have some 16mm Kodachrome home movies shot in the 1940s by my grandfather which look great (no vinegar!). I don't think that it is too much to ask of the designers and producers of newer audio and video formats that they be playable in 50 years.

Part of the problem is the failure mode of each format: a scratched CD is usually completely unplayable, while a scratched record or film print just sounds and/or looks bad.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-03-2003, 08:44 PM:
 
I think when I get a few thousand digital stills saved up I'll make a deal with one of my clients who own the only film recorder in town and have them do a "film out" onto color negative (which fades but slowly and predictably) or really get anal and have them make B&W seps which should last almost forever.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-03-2003, 09:05 PM:
 
I still think it is a bunch of crap. Have you ever heard of a hard drive disk rotting? Ever hear of a mini-disk rotting? One of the oldest DVD's I have is in perfect condition. Some of the newer ones are falling apart. A quick check of my older Lazer disks seem to be in perfect shape, yet.

So why are the "late model" DVD's rotting when some of the older ones are still in perfect shape?

I have an old CDROM by Microsoft that is from 1994. It is in perfect shape! I have the old CorelDraw 3.0 that is still in perfect shape! I have an old version of Strong International's Motion Picture Equipment Instruction Manuals and Parts lists of September 1998. Outside of a few minor scratches, it is in perfect shape. I have an old CDROM musical sound track of "The Lost Boys" (the movie) and it is still in perrfect shape.

To make a long story short, the technology is in place and has been used. That's why I think that early failures in the newer CDROM's and DVD's have been engineered in the disks. Either that, or some manufactures just have piss poor manufacturing and quality control techniques.

Hmmmmm........
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 02-03-2003, 10:05 PM:
 
Crappy manufacturing. Paul hit the nail on the head. There are several manufacturers of DVD-R discs out there that even though you pay a ridiculously low amount of money for, you have to throw half of them away when your burner won't write to them. (Glass mastered discs being a completely different technology, but the analogy is the same.)
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-03-2003, 10:06 PM:
 
I've yet to loose any sort of silver disk. I have so many formats too, and alot of my CD's date back to when CD's first came out!! With the increase in DVD production it doesn't surprise me that there will be impending troubles. Most of you that ayve had problems seem to live in more humid areas though. Out here in Utah not much happens to anything as far as rot,rust, mold, or deterioration.
Mark
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 02-03-2003, 10:10 PM:
 
Well, there IS a strain of bacteria (or mold) that thrives on the organic material that the ink CD-Rs, CD-RWs and DVD-Rs are made out of. It gets in through the edge of the disk between the layers and eats it way through the "sandwich until there's nothing left.

With "pressed" disks, that shouldn't be a problem because there shouldn't be any organic material. The reflective layer SHOULD be made out of vapor-deposited aluminum.

The only thing I can think of is that they aren't pressing the layers together long, hard and hot enough to cause them to bond.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-03-2003, 11:12 PM:
 
Randy, what you said still boils down to two things: (1) Crappy manufacturing and (2) Shitty quality control.

Just like a book of matches.....ever get a good book of matches lately where the match head does not fly umpteen feet on fire when you strike it, or IF you can strike it at all?

And Mark...you said "OLD" disks... - how about the new ones?
I compare it to a 1948 Zenith TV set using a reactance tube modulator for AFC control of the horizontal oscillator. That thing was bullet proof. Today's TV sets are plastic electronics...and they work great as long as you have the TV set sitting on top the transmitter just like the Muntz TV sets to get good reception...unles you have a coax carrying a "hot" signal..
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-04-2003, 01:58 AM:
 
As if unintentional DVD degradation wasn't bad enough, some folks are designing them to do that deliberately! The following was posted on the AMIA list last month.

quote:

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From: David Walsh [mailto:DWalsh@IWM.ORG.UK]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 4:51 AM
To: AMIA-L@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: [AMIA-L] Self-destructing DVDs

The perfect solution to archiving DVDs - there'll be nothing left to archive: from New Scientist, 18 January 2003

*SpectraDisc of Providence, Rhode Island, has won a basic patent (US 6343063) on self-destructing DVDs. The idea is that people renting the DVD will not need to return it to the store. The disc is doped with hygroscopic salts such as magnesium chloride, and its surface is covered with a peel-off barrier, like a record label.

To play the disc you have to remove the barrier. The salts then start to pick up moisture from the air, producing a corrosive mix that begins to eat away the aluminium layer of the disc that holds the data. So the disc will play for a while and then stop. The disc can also contain an indigo dye that is darkened by the light from the DVD player's laser, to control the number of times it can be played.*

David Walsh
Imperial War Museum

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quote:

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... It's the American Way.

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I don't think America has a monopoly on greed.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 02-04-2003, 01:46 PM:
 

quote:

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The salts then start to pick up moisture from the air, producing a corrosive mix that begins to eat away the aluminium layer of the disc that holds the data. So the disc will play for a while and then stop.

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quote:

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I know that many companies have products that don't break down, deteriorate, burn out or fall apart. However, if these items were to be sold, these companies would go under becuse there would be no need for service departments and no need to sell more products.

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That's why we need corporate accountability. For every "Brand-X" washer, dryer, stove, fridge, TV, etc. that's destroying our environment sitting in a landfill because it was built to fall apart after the warranty, that brand should be charged a disposal fee as well as an ecological damage assesment fee. Build it cheap now, pay for it later!

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-04-2003, 02:00 PM:
 
HAH! Look at the brighter side. If the DVD's rot like they do and the public catches on to it, who'll buy the damned things? I won't. The movie producers and their companys can just take their cheap product and stuff it where all such things should be stuffed! Besides, with the crap hollywood likes to release, who wants to buy it anyway?

I had a manager of a DVD shop tell me DVD sales (especially CD's) have dropped substancially over the last year. Some of those stores are "hurting".....
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-04-2003, 02:06 PM:
 
Some links about a few of Kodak's environmental programs:

Kodak People & Planet Website

End of Life Management

Film Recycling

FPC Film Salvage
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 02-04-2003, 04:00 PM:
 
With the exception of "THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT", I had mentioned above, I have never had any problems with any other DVds I had bought since they first went on sale in March 1997. I watched "THE COLOR PURPLE" two weeks ago which was a part of the very early releases and my copy still looked very good with no signs of 'rot' or any other abnormality. As far as recent DVD prie reductions is concerned, they are only limited to catalogue titles and newer movies that have been repriced after they have been on the market for a couple of months. One example is "LEGALLY BLONDE" which was selling for $20.00 on sale when it was first released a few months ago and only $8.95 this week at Circuit City. New movies that are coming out on DVDs are still priced at about $20.00 when they are on sale. Studios are doing this because they are more interesed in selling movies rather than renting because they can make more money and many times recoup their investment if a film did not do well during it's theatrical run. A lot of Classic movies are now coming out at very low prices. I just learned yesterday, Universal will be releasing "SWEET CHARITY", "THE GLENN MILLER STORY" and "THE BENNY GOODMAN STORY" from digitally restored elements for a SRP of $14.95. This low price does not mean that the quality will be poor. The discs will be just as good as higher priced titles because I have purchased others at that price range and have been very pleased.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 02-04-2003, 04:27 PM:
 
A few of the studios like MGM, have their DVD production lines
come out of Taiwan. Some Paramount DVD's & VHS come from Mexico.

They are mastered here in the states, but the production lines
are located where cheap labor is located.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-04-2003, 06:16 PM:
 
I am a proud owner of less than one dozen DVDs. Out of those I have had 3 of them defective right out of the box. I even tried playing them on a few different players just to make sure mine wasn't screwy. Ahhhhhhhh quality!

With the way people treat films nowadays, I think Kodak needs to come out with self-destructing films. After a couple hundred runs, theaters still playing it gets a new print.
 

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Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 02-04-2003, 06:35 PM:
 
something I like to see would be DTS encoded laser video dics-not DVD's.
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 02-04-2003, 06:57 PM:
 
Speaking of AOL disks...
Some fool decided it would be a great idea to put an AOL disk on each seat at Safeco Field in Seattle. What a moron. People began playing "Flying Saucer" with them and people in the front rows were getting wacked in the head. The first aid room had an abundant supply of people with splits in their head. Ouch!
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-04-2003, 07:49 PM:
 
Matthew they DO (did) make DTS LaserDiscs. In fact I own several:

True Lies
Titanic
Super Speedway
Jurassic Park
Seven
The Nightmare Before Christmas
and many more

all in DTS.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 02-04-2003, 08:42 PM:
 
I also have a nice collection of DTS laserdiscs of about fifty four titles. Some of my favorites include "JURASSIC PARK", "TITANIC" and APOLLO 13". When it comes to demonstrating how wonderful split surround sound can be, the best disk is CASPER" which is not yet available on DVD.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-04-2003, 10:36 PM:
 
Greg, Only in Seattle would some bunghole would do that.

...And, AOL Disks never die...I don't know what their source was, but whatever company it was, they sure had a good quality control....
 

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Posted by John Lasher (Member # 968) on 02-06-2003, 10:14 PM:
 
The only problems I have encountered with (rental) DVDs are when some wingass has used the disc as a coaster/frisbee/plate/etc. these people began at the local blockbuster. They would rent the DVDs, and by the time they had been returned, they looked like someone had gotten angry and taken a scraping device to them. I imagine the thought going through these peoples' minds as they watch it one more time before returning it to the store. "Hmm... I wonder why this won't play any more. Probably some sort of * digital * ( ) on it to make it not play after the 5 days are over. Nothing to do with using it as a puck for our roller hockey game."

Now these people are discovering Hollywood (the only place where you could rent a DVD and be sure it would play when you got it home. They seem to prefer new releases, so at least 70-80% of the discs I rent are safe for now. But I have become aware that one of these people WORKS AT HOLLYWOOD!! I rented "Ghost World" when I put it in to watch it. I couldn't get past the first 3 minutes of the feature, the disc was so badly scratched. So I take it back and they give me a free rental on the same title which I check to assure playability (I do this with all titles now. But here's the thing... there was a guy and a woman working there when I made the exchange. While I was there, the guy (whom I had just shown the scratched disc to) scans the disc to mark it as returned and PUTS IT BACK ON THE SHELF AS IS FOR THE NEXT UNSUSPECTING CUSTOMER TO RENT!!
 

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Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 02-08-2003, 09:21 AM:
 
The reason that they may want to re-rent the disc you couldn't play is that they may want to ascertain that it cannot be played in any machine. Remember that just because your machine cannot play it, doesn't mean that all machines cannot play it.

If they get a second complaint on that same exact disc, they may want to think about retiring it, though.
 

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