Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Progressive Scam DVD Players

This is topic Progressive Scam DVD Players in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-19-2001, 12:25 PM:

Here's a question for you video guys. I have a 50" Mitsubishi HDTV set that has an input for the tuner that includes the normal R,G,B inputs plus inputs for H and V drive signals. Is there any way to hook up a progressive scan DVD to this set? I was told by the dealer that most sets now being made have just the R, G, B inputs and usually at least 3 sets of them. Mine just has one set of these. At any rate he said that he is pretty sure that Mistubishi makes an adaptor box that will allow hooking up more HD inputs to the set although he was unable to tell me any part or model number for it.
Any one out there know anything about this?
Thanks for any help with this.......
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 04-19-2001, 06:09 PM:

You have all the inputs you need. The set has RGBHV but if the player only has RGB just plug them in and they should work. Usually the sync is on green. If you have RGB and Black just plug them in to GRBH and it should work just fine. If the DVD player has a 15 pin sub D output you can get a "Shred" at Best Buy in the cable isle. If the player has BNC connectors instead of RCA you can adapters at Radio Snack.

It's all good.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-19-2001, 06:23 PM:

Forgive me Mark, but doesn't the TV and the DVD player both have instructions for that connection?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-19-2001, 06:49 PM:

Doesn't the monitor have to specifically support progressive-scan mode for this to work? Somehow, I was under the impression that it won't work with just any old monitor that happens to have separate BNC connectors for RGB input.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 04-19-2001, 07:15 PM:

You do need to see if your DVD machine's outputs are RGB or component (Y/R-Y/B-Y or Y/Pr/Pb or some other flavor thereof). If the DVD outputs are RGB you're set. If they're component, you'll need a transcoder (Audio Authority makes a good one for around $130 street price).

There are component/RGB switchers available that would give you more inputs--Inline and Extron make good ones. Used to use 'em for convention work in 'Vegas.

The only other thing to watch out for is some HD TVs automatically switch to anamorphic mode when using the RGB inputs--this will require a workaround.

BTW try this site for all sorts of good data regarding HD home equipment tweeks, service menus, ISF/SMPTE calibration tips, and equipment reviews: http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/

Cheers!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-19-2001, 10:13 PM:

Thanks a million guys for all the info! I'll check the suggestions out and go form there.

Joe, Whats happenning to you? You seem to be getting larger and larger....
Actually progressive scam DVD's came out after my HDTV did. We've had it for about 2 years now.
Mark

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-20-2001, 03:21 AM:

Yes Mark I am coming to get you.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-27-2001, 06:03 PM:

For those that may own a Mitsubishi 1st generation HDTV they do make a converter, or as Paul puts it a transcoder. Its a model #RGB-CV10 and costs allot, plus there is not a Mits dealer that knows about it. It will convert the now standard HD signal of Y, Pb,and Pr to R,G,B,H,V and probably some other unwanted signals. Although this was designed for HD satellite receivers Mits says it will work with a DVD or any other standard HD source but it will only work with a MITS TV as this box does the aspect ratio control.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-27-2001, 06:35 PM:

All this TV talk makes me appreciate how much easier it is to just go to the movies!

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-28-2001, 09:07 AM:

So has anyone come out with a HDTV projector yet?

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 04-28-2001, 11:25 AM:

Many manufacturers now equip their projectors with the appropriate inputs to accept HDTV scan formats (480p, 1080i, etc.), it has become quite a popular feature over the past year. The downside is that nobody provides a built-in tuner.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-28-2001, 04:56 PM:

Mitsubishi has just come out with a neat rear screen that uses DLP instead of CRT's. I have not seen one yet but I can imagine that it will be expensive. It ought to look good though especially in a size range where the elements can't be seen on screen.
There are many HDTV projectors out that are suitable for home use if you don't mind watching digital video and putting up with all it's artifacts.
Mark@ GTS

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 01-30-2011, 08:11 AM:

It has been 3563 days since the last post.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 01-30-2011, 08:11 AM:

Here is a question for someone.

Lets say I have a bluray-dvd player.

Does it really matter if the player has progressive scan?

My hunch is the new bluray-dvd players are better than a dvd only progressive scan.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-30-2011, 04:34 PM:

You cannot get a BD player that doesn't feature progressive scan capability on DVDs.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 01-30-2011, 04:35 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
You cannot get a BD player that doesn't feature progressive scan capability on DVDs

Are you sure?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-30-2011, 04:37 PM:

Pretty sure. It would be a really low-end player if it didn't do that.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 01-30-2011, 04:51 PM:

Joe- Why would it need to be there? Does not make sense

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-30-2011, 06:15 PM:

Why wouldn't it be there? I mean, if you're going to advertise that your device is totally backwards-compatible with playing back dvd's (and even pointing out that they'll look better with upconverting), it would seem to be best that you include support for something as basic as progressive scan support. Also, I imagine most of the blu-ray player manufacturers simply used whatever is the latest iteration of their dvd playback software and did slight changes to make it run on the newer blu-ray hardware platform, thereby giving progressive scan support on dvd automatically.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-31-2011, 01:20 PM:

This should be a nonissue if you are watching the picture on an LCD or plasma set or on an LCD or DLP video projector. All of these systems are progressive scan by default. Interlace scan is only supported on CRTs, and most that I have seen do not support progressive scan (except for computer monitors, of course).

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-31-2011, 03:54 PM:

No, TVs such as those don't always do reverse pulldown very well (some do, some don't), so it helps when the DVD player is properly outputting progressive scan.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-01-2011, 07:02 AM:

You're saying that a $50 DVD player will do a better job of deinterlacing than a $1k television set or a $5k video projector?

If you were talking about external scalers, I could understand....

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-01-2011, 03:11 PM:

It doesn't need to deinterlace if it is stored as progressive frames at 23.98fps. It just needs to "duplicate frames". It outputs at 59.97fps progressive adding the extra frames for pulldown. If you have 60i footage then your mileage will vary. Nothing will make that look good in progressive.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-01-2011, 03:32 PM:

But aren't all SD DVDs 59.94i or 50i? And doesn't all film material have 3:2 pulldown added when the master tape (from which the DVD is derived) is made? My understanding is that only the HD formats allow the material to be stored natively at 23.98.

(To clarify: I agree that progressive scan is a huge improvement on a CRT. It's just that most CRTs don't support it, making it a nonissue for most users. And I would be happy to hear a good explanation of why a DVD player with progressive scan would be an improvement over an interlaced signal being fed to an LCD or DLP video projector or other progressive-by-definition output device.)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-01-2011, 03:54 PM:

My personal observations of DVDs played on typical DVD players is that one is best served by S-Video. Progressive scan seems like a mix bag on the actual results...sometimes good and sometimes worse than leaving it alone.

With component video (off of DVDs), I've yet to find anyone that could pick it off as notably better than S-Video but I HAVE seen sync issues on component, more so on 480p when bright flashes (like ones that would be present when a flash picture is taken in the movie) cause the sync to be lost. S-Video, on the other hand seems to have most of the desires of component (keep the color separated) but lack all of the sync issues. The downsides: Not progressive and, more importantly, a stupid connector that easily can fall out.

-Steve

Posted by Tom Mundell (Member # 4555) on 02-01-2011, 04:20 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
And I would be happy to hear a good explanation of why a DVD player with progressive scan would be an improvement over an interlaced signal being fed to an LCD or DLP video projector or other progressive-by-definition output device.

This may vary depending on your particular display. I've noted with my tv that the de-interlacing and upscaling done by my blu-ray player is much better than what my tv does. My tv doesn't de-interlace well with all discs; sometimes it completely fails to recognize whether or not the 3:2 pulldown is present leaving combing artifacts. I'm not sure if this is because the tv is now rather old and just not very good, or if it's a lot easier for the dvd/blu-ray player to do this since it isn't trying to guess based on what's in the component video signal?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-01-2011, 07:43 PM:

Scott, I encode 23.98 fps DVDs all the time. No pull down frames are added during the encode (they are added by the player as it plays). In fact, if you take a 30fps (or 60i) piece that is exactly 20 minutes long and a 23.98 piece that is also exactly 20 minutes long and encode them both at the exact same settings, the 23.98 file will be smaller. Why? Fewer frames. It is stored on the DVD as a 23.98p file. You'll get the same result for 23.98 inside 60i with added drop frames as well (it will be as big as a 60i file). 23.98 inside of 60i is still 60i. For this reason you can raise the bitrate a little for 23.98 material when encoding DVDs without worrying about hitting the bandwidth ceiling. Granted, DVD does not play back at 23.98, it always outputs 59.9p or i even in component.

I do think that a lot of studios encode their DVDs as 23.98 inside 60i. When playing many of them in progressive scan I see the odd interlace/combing artifact at a random scene change. When I watch stuff I personally encode at 23.98, it never, ever does this.

DVD can only do 23.98p, 29.97p and 59.96i. Blu-ray can do that as well but also adds proper 24, 30 and 60fps modes.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 02-06-2011, 04:29 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
My personal observations of DVDs played on typical DVD players is that one is best served by S-Video. Progressive scan seems like a mix bag on the actual results...sometimes good and sometimes worse than leaving it alone.

With component video (off of DVDs), I've yet to find anyone that could pick it off as notably better than S-Video but I HAVE seen sync issues on component, more so on 480p when bright flashes (like ones that would be present when a flash picture is taken in the movie) cause the sync to be lost. S-Video, on the other hand seems to have most of the desires of component (keep the color separated) but lack all of the sync issues. The downsides: Not progressive and, more importantly, a stupid connector that easily can fall out.

-Steve

So what are you saying? and S-Video is better on dvd than a component?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-06-2011, 08:32 AM:

For the most part. I don't doubt that there are some DVD players that make the most of Component and that format will deliver a notably better picture (it should)...but if you randomly pick a DVD player...without a doubt, using the S-Video output will be the best/most reliable picture. I've been burned by using component out too many times to ever trust it on DVDs again. When I switch between S and Component with people not trained to look for the differences...they DON'T see ANY...and sometimes pick S-Video as looking better. So why bother with component on DVDs? On HD stuff...Component is the way (in analog) to go beyond 480. I also have not had the problems with BluRays, cable, satellite...etc running Component in 720 or 1080.

-Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-06-2011, 01:08 PM:

quote: The Guttag
The downsides: Not progressive and, more importantly, a stupid connector that easily can fall out.

Possibly the worst connector ever designed.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-06-2011, 06:53 PM:

Well yes because it is a "mini-din" connector. It takes after the equally stupid connector..the DIN.

However, the worst connector now...HDMI...easily falls out and often has too stiff a cable for its own good.

-Steve

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-06-2011, 08:45 PM:

The DIN is much better than the mini-din basically because the mini-din's connectors are much easier to bend and/or snap off than the full-size DIN. Granted, I am not implying that the DIN is fantastic in any way.

Agreed about HDMI. It's hard to damage the cable and connector unlike s-video, but the damn thing really needs to snap into place because it can wiggle loose much too easily (also unlike s-video which is usually pretty snug).