This is topic Movies on CAV laserdiscs are a pain to watch! in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-01-2003, 11:36 AM:
 
When laserdiscs was very popular before DVD replaced that format, videophliles like me were very pleased when a film would be released in the CAV (Constant Angular Velocity) insead of the standard CLV (Constant Linear Velocity) because of the supposedely better picture quality. The only problem with CAV was the limited playing time per side at only 30 minutes compared to an hour on CLV. I just watched "VENGENCE IS MINE" a Japanese film by Shohei Imamura about a notorius serial killer, Iwao Enokizu last night from a Criterion CAV box set and what a pain it was watching it when I had to change discs twice because of the limited playing time. Thank God, I was not watching the movie on one of my earlier laserdisc machines that did not automatically turn the disc over. If I did, I would have had to get up and flip discs at least five times. I must admit with the awesome picture and sound quality DVD's offer not to mention the opportunity to watch a film non stop as long as slightly over three hours, it's no wonder laserdiscs is dead. Although LD's are no longer manufactured, I still have a sizeable collerction of movies that might never see the light of day in the foreseeble future ON DVD such as my MGM film classcs including "THE GOOD EARTH", "GOODBYE MR. CHIPS" (Original & Musical), "MRS MINNIVER" and so many others. The two versions of the original "STAR WARS" trilogy is also a cherished posession especially the original theatrical version which will never be released on DVD based on what George Lucas said not too long ago.

-Claude
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-01-2003, 12:57 PM:
 
I see two options for you.

#1 Have a friend with the appropriate non-linear editing software and DVD authoring software make you a personal DVD version of your movies that are exclusive to Laserdisc. (For your own personal use only, of course.)

#2 Hire Steve Guttag to run Laserdisc changeovers. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 04-01-2003, 04:23 PM:
 
I bought "The Coal Miner's Daughter" on MCA DiscoVision [Cool] a few weeks ago at Goodwill for $1. 3 discs, 5 sides. Almost seems like a side per reel.

I don't have a LaserDisc player, but it's cool to have I guess, heh.
=TMP=
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-01-2003, 05:06 PM:
 
Thomas,

MCA Discovision discs were very bad even at the time they were first released. It was very common to find at least one or two sides of a multi CAV disc set totally unplayable because of 'Laser Rot". All of my Discovision discs have all been returned to dealers as soon as they developed problems and today, I have none. MCA was having a lot of problems with the optical disc process that they almost pulled the plug until Pioneer Electronics of Japan took over with discs that were less suseptible to laser rot caused by oxidation. It did not take long for Pioneer to establish a very successful laserdisc market and make it the best way to watch a film on home video because of it's much superior picture and sound quality compared to VHS and Beta tapes. The only problem with laserdiscs was the costs of the software. The least expensive price for a movie was MGM's $29.94 titles. All of the other studios were charging $34.95 for a sincle disc movie and $39.95 for a double disc set. All of the movies released on discs at this time came with no extras on the standard set. The only way one can get extras that is common with most DVDs today was when studios released special editions that almost cost about a hundred dollars or more. The first "STAR WARS" trilogy in a box cost $250.00 and people like myself were gladly paying that price because we had to have the discs.

Getting back to your MCA Discovision, I doubt it is good anymore. At the most, pride yourself of havin a piece of early home video history even tough the disc itself might be unplayable. [Smile]

-Claude
 
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-01-2003, 05:26 PM:
 
Thomas here is the frame counts for "Coal Miner's Daughter" CAV.

The CLV version had 3 sides. It was issued from MCA, May of 1980 from their plant in Carson, California.
The next piece of history you need to find is a RCA CED disc. [Razz]
[beer]
 
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-01-2003, 05:36 PM:
 
I remember CED. Those were "Capacitance Electronic Discs" IIRC.

Those discs were the same size as the large LaserDiscs and their hard plastic cases were designed so that the discs themselves were never handled by the user.

The entire case went into the player, then the user removed the case, leaving the disc inside. Of course, THERE WERE WAYS to gain access to the disc itself. We had to do that once to sort out a skipping problem. Again -- IIRC -- the disc was cleaned with alcohol, but they put it back into the case backwards and Side A and Side B were flipped.

Did those machines use a stylus?
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-01-2003, 05:53 PM:
 
Yes, Manny the CED discs used a stylus. Because it did, the process was also known by it's sarcastic name "NeedleVision.

I was never impressed with the CED process introduced by RCA and never invested in the system. When I started to collect movies on laserdiscs, MCA was just turning everything over to Pioneer and I have continued to buy discs until DVD took over the market in 1997. I had a friend who had almost every title released on CED and it was very sad when I helped him take his collection to the city dump for disposal when he could no longer get parts for his two players. [Frown] The biggest fear I have right now is the same thing happening to laserdiscs.

-Claude
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-01-2003, 07:06 PM:
 
I have the box sets for Jaws and Toy Story. Both are CAV. My laserdisc player has the capability to play both sides without having to flip the disc. I can also do freeze frame and jog functions on CLV discs with my player.
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-01-2003, 08:40 PM:
 
Darryl,

With that machine you and I have, you will need to get up and change disc once if you were watching only the "TOY STORY" movie and three times for the "JAWS" film not counting all of the extra stuff on the discs that will require you to get off your fanny more often than you would want to. I never felt getting up to change discs was a problem before DVD's, but when those little discs hit the market, the necessity to often change CAV discs during playback has became a huge pain in the butt! [Smile]

-Claude
 
Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 04-02-2003, 05:38 AM:
 
CAV discs are best primarily to analyze something frame-by-frame. I have "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," "Fantasia" and the first "Jurassic Park" in CAV. I think "All Dogs Go To Heaven" came only in CAV at no extra cost. One thing I found in Jurassic Park is for one frame, the veloceraptor is missing from the T-Rex's mouth when it first picks it up in the main hall. I'm wondering if that's been fixed in the DVD edition.

Once, a friend was watching a standard CLV laserdisc with me, and when I had to flip it, he said, "That's the only thing wrong with these things, you have to interrupt the movie." I pointed out to him, as he sucked on his 64 ounce soda that we've been pausing the film every 20 minutes so he could go to the bathroom! At that point, the conversation was over.

And CED. In my basement, an ersatz archaic video equipment museum, is a mono, and a stereo CED player. On Sunday, I dug out the mono player (which now works better than the stereo) to watch "The Stunt Man." It played okay with only one skipping section, but the picture quality really isn't all that great. At the time it seemed okay enough to invest in about 70 movies. When one ceases to play, I'll replace it with DVD (if it's available).
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-02-2003, 06:28 PM:
 
My original laserdisc player did not have the ability to switch sides. I got the one I have now because my old one did not have the RF output on it. I purchased my current one from a local high end dealer for $300. It originaly sold for over $800. I never really had a problem with changing sides or anything for that technology. I do remember the CED players. I remember our local Radio shack had them. I thought they were cool but at the time I did not have the money to spend on one. They didn't last long anyway and the idea of the movie skipping did not appeal to me.
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-02-2003, 09:20 PM:
 
Darryl,

I also had to upgrade or should I say down because my previous high end Pioneer machine I had paid over $800.00 for did not have an RF output in order to play laserdiscs with Dolby Digital 5.1 digital sound. The new machine like yours cost me about $300.00 discounted from about $500,00. The only problem with laserdiscs with 5.1 sound is their inability to be played back in that sound format because most current receivers do not have RF inputs like my new Denon AVR 3802. [Frown]

Thank God, I can still play my large collection of full bit DTS laserdiscs. [Smile]

-Claude
 
Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 04-02-2003, 09:53 PM:
 
Get a RF Demod. I've got the same reciever and love it.
 
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 04-02-2003, 11:01 PM:
 
Yeah, they had another title there too but the discs were obviously rotted. (Looked like little bubbles underneath the plastic). I just bought Coal Miner's Daughter for the sake of hanging those "Giant CDs" in the screening room bathroom. [Smile]

My friend bought some "Select-o-Vision" discs of old horror movies a while back. They came in big plastic cases that fed into the player. The discs themselves were black like a record, I believe.

My parents have a timeshare they bought when we lived in Chicago back in the 80s. (It's in Orlando Florida -- who would have known back then?? hehe) I believe they had those CED players in every villa, and you could rent the discs from the front desk. It was so cool watching movies on those back then, never having to rewind. Everyone was talking about how that was the future. The next year when we went back to the resort, they had replaced all of the CED players with VHS VCRs and started renting tapes. So much for the future. [Embarrassed]

=TMP=
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-03-2003, 01:20 AM:
 
yes that is true I use a Yamaha RF demodulator that cost about $75 at the time.
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-03-2003, 01:58 AM:
 
Chase & Darryl,

Is a RF demodulator I can use with my Denon receiver still available? I remember my friend Tom Choi at a high end video harware stote telling me that there was such a product but is no longer available. If RF demodulators are still available will you be kind enough to post a link or an address with a phone number so I can look into it? Thanks!

-Claude
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-03-2003, 10:32 AM:
 
Claude,

Here is a link you can go to. www.yamaha.com/yec/index1.htm
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-03-2003, 01:55 PM:
 
Hi Darryl,

Thanks for the Yamaha link. I went to the site and looked everywhere but could not find the product. Perhaps I am not looking in the right direction or the product is indeed discontinued. I find it rather odd they would do this because there is now more need for an outboard RF decoder because almost all current receivers do not have an input for RF. I still have a lot of Dolby 5.1 laserdiscs that I do not plan to replace with the DVD version even if it was available because I am very pleased with the version I now have. The prologic sound on these discs is great but it cannot compare with the 5.1 track.

-Claude
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-04-2003, 01:59 AM:
 
You may have to contact them Directly to inquire about the Rf Demodulator. On that site there should be a place you can go for contact information. You may have to do some hunting for it. Try places that sell used laser discs and players. You may get lucky and find one there. Mine is a Yamaha natural sound RF demodulator APO-1.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-12-2003, 02:55 AM:
 
You can use an RF Demodulator with any current receiver with Dolby Digital just as long as it has a coaxial input. I have one and it works great. I also have the Star Wars Special Edition LDs which sound phenomenal in Dolby Digital. Yeah I know, Greedo shoots first, Jabba looks stupid and all of the other things that are wrong with the Special Edition, but the sound is great, Empire rules, and it's not gonna be available on DVD for a long time.
 
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-14-2003, 01:57 PM:
 
If you have an odd-numbered-sided Discovision movie, usually the unused side will be coated with something making it unplayable, but you can clean it off with alcohol and find interesting stuff on that side. Usually it's a side from another title but sometimes it's stuff like General Motors sales discs from the late 70s.
Incidentally, some single-layer DVDs have playable material on the label side of the disc too if you clean that off with alcohol, but most of the time the same thing is duplicated on both sides.
I have about 1200 CED videodiscs too; I'm trying to get every title ever made.
 
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 04-20-2003, 06:24 AM:
 
I remember visintg the RCA Sarnoff labs in Princeton when they were experimenting with the CED discs and there weren't too many technicians who had any love for them. They were tinkering with an arcade game version of the system. Imagine trying to be non-linear with a needle in a groove. The only way they could instantly access a particular part of the recording was to literally drag the stylus over the surface of the disc. You can imagine what that looked like! To keep friction down and extend the life of the stylus, the disc had to have a thin coating of oil, which tended to attract every dust particle around, even though the discs were kept in a "caddy" that contained a cleaning medium. I keep a couple here in my office next to a 1950 RCA TV as an interesting reminder of ancient video technology. People constantly ask "does that thing work?" and I tell them that it might, but that it would only pick up the DuMont network. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-20-2003, 05:51 PM:
 
There actually was one arcade game that used a CED player- NFL Football from Midway- saw it once but never played it. During CED's last year they made one player that could do random-access and chapter stops like laserdiscs, but I heard that it caused damage to the discs so I haven't been in a hurry to get one. I have a few interactive discs made for this player that I can watch straight through- the laserdisc game "Murder Anyone?" was put out on CED among a few others.
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-20-2003, 06:49 PM:
 
As strange as it may sound, I have been warching a lot of old laserdiscs recently. One of the discs I especially enjoyed was George Roy Hill's "HAWAII" in the original uncut road show version with twenty minutes of restored footage that was considered lost for many years.. With the restored footage, the film runs three hours and ten minutes and features the original overture, Entr'acte and exit music. The only thing that bothers me when they retain the extra music tracks is the stupid title cards they use over the music that reads "OVERTURE", "ENTR'ACTE" and "EXIT MUSIC". Recent road show films on DVDs such as "CLEOPATRA, "THE HELLELUJAH TRAIL", "THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD" were great because they featured the music only against a blank screen exactly like the original theatrical presentation without the title card. Watching many good old films on laserdiscs I had not seen in years is like watching them again for the very first time because much time has passed and I have forgotten the plots and the endings.

-Claude
 
Posted by Daniel Fuentz (Member # 1684) on 04-20-2003, 07:21 PM:
 
I found one of those old RCA CED players at the Goodwill a while back for $2. I bought it only becuase a friend of the family had one back in the 80's, and I remember being so amazed they could watch movies anytime they wanted! (I hadn't heard of VHS or beta at that time) The player I got still works, but I hardly ever use it. I saw an MCA Discovision title amongst the LP records in another shop a few weeks ago, but some fool had put a $9.95 price tag on it. I bet they're wondering why it hasn't sold yet...
 
Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 05-07-2003, 07:59 PM:
 
I LOVE my Laserdiscs. I invested heavily in them over the last 25 years (can't believe its 25 years!) The best of them still hold up quality wise and since the video is uncompressed analog there's a "smoothness" to the image that I find lacking from DvD. Don't get Me wrong. DvD's are great but, unless it's a feature laden re-master, I'll stick with the big silver platter. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-13-2003, 10:45 AM:
 
I still have some of the MCA Discovision Lasers...amazingly, as the players improved, so did the ability to play the older discs. A laser-rot disc that would be unplayable on my VP-1000 (the grand-daddy of the Laserdisc players on the Pioneer side) will play just fine on later units from say the CLD-900 onwards. My favorite player was my CLD-D701 (RIP) and I'm now on a DVL-700 (LD and DVD). Pioneer still has new LD players but the selections are getting smaller by the year.

I'll put my best lasers up against the best DVDs...I don't like the DVD look, the compression artifacts bother me (static blocks and such). But I guess this is another digital versus analog debate.

Steve
 
Posted by Paul Howard (Member # 1706) on 05-18-2003, 05:07 AM:
 
I used to own a Pioneer CLD 350. Now i have a Toshiba SD2109, good player but i would trade in every DVD i have for its laserdisc alternative. The audio on my old Jurassic Park DTS LD pisses all over the DTS DVD (even the repress). I could only imagine the power of something like the Matrix or X2 on laserdisc. But maybe this new D-VHS could be the perfectionists format of the future, it would be nice if the packaging was like the massive sleeves LDs came with, but that obviously wont happen.
 
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-18-2003, 06:10 PM:
 
I have a ton of LaserDisc media and my trusty Pioneer CLD-D704.

I agree about the image quality.... it's great.

And sound available in Dolby and some DTS.

>>> Phil
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-20-2003, 01:40 AM:
 
Phil, have you had any trouble with your CLD-704? I have a CLD-900 that has a mechanical drive problem, I think it's control circuits are kapoot!

Two years ago, I was looking for a Lazer Disc/DVD player, but the thing was so pricey that I elected not to invest. I only have about 50 Lazer disks, so it didn't seem cost effective for me to splurge.
 
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-20-2003, 02:23 AM:
 
Paul: For home use, over the years I have bought other Pioneer LaserDisc players before I finally upgraded to this one about 5 years ago.

I have always preferred Pioneer LaserDisc players for personal use as well as in my professional applications. Their engineering dept was great when I had a specific issue with syncing multiple players. They even put a special "set-up-screen" choice in their commercial players called the Iwerks Mod just for me.

Pioneer co-invented the system...pushed it big time...and it was THE player-brand for video games...like "Dragon's Lair" and others from that time period. (Sony, as usual, sucked!)

Sometimes while at home, I would have to review and check many of Iwerks' Show LaserDiscs I had made...also, I have a large collection of "commercial" movie discs.

The player has got a lot of use over the years. I have NEVER had any problem with it at all. It always performed flawlessly and with a great picture and great sound.

The auto "changeover" to the other side is great for movies!

>>> Phil
 
Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 05-20-2003, 02:28 AM:
 
Paul.

The very first DVD player I bought was a DVD/Laserdisc combo player, the Pioneer DVL-700 I picked up in February 1997 - one month before DVDs went on Sale for the first time. Actually, the first DVDs went on sale in late February a few weeks before Warner Brothers and their affiliated labels released discs in seven test market cities. These very first titles were from Lumivision and included "RAIN FORREST", an IMAX film and a disc of Canadian award winning animated shorts. The DVL 700 is now used for laserdisc playback only and my progressive scan Panasonic DVD RP-62 is used for DVD. I once had about a thousand laserdiscs but sold most of them but I still have many titles that will most likely never be released on DVD in the near future or ever. I also have about fifty two DTS laserdiscs and I agree, DTS on the larger discs does blow away DVD's DTS sound. Although I disagree to the statement that laserdiscs are better, I still enjoy watching movies on those large discs. As far as picture quality, DVD is much better because of it's film like quality picture.

-Claude

[ 05-20-2003, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Claude S. Ayakawa ]
 
Posted by Paul Howard (Member # 1706) on 05-20-2003, 09:22 AM:
 
quote:
I disagree that laserdiscs are better.
You are correct Claude, DVD is exceptionally better at images than LD. I remember being a huge anti DVD person when they first arrived "how could anything replace LD." Now DVD is commonplace and has itself firmly anchoured as a main format, alot more than laserdisc ever did.
The only main problem with DVD here in the UK is the sped up frame rate. eg, Captian Picard sometimes sounds like he is on helium. As a result most of my discs are region 1.
I suppose my support for LD is purely daft sentimentality, I do now love DVD, plus those 12 inch discs would never fit into a Blockbuster drop box.
 
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 05-20-2003, 01:39 PM:
 
I bought a combo LD/DVD player so I wouldn't feel so bad about killing off laserdisc with the new format [Smile]
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-20-2003, 08:17 PM:
 
Paul, the CLD-D704 and the CLD-900 have almost nothing in common.

The CLD 900 was notorious for having trouble, as it aged, when switching from CD to LD. The Tracking is also notably inferior to any the CLD-D series.. (CLD-D700 - CLD-D704)

Steve
 




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