Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DVD-R vs DVD+R

This is topic DVD-R vs DVD+R in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-08-2003, 01:11 AM:

What's the real difference between DVD-R and DVD+R formats? I think DVD-R is more compatible with set top DVD players, but the DVD+R camp loves saying how superior their format is. Wouldn't this be similar to CD-Rs having two different formats, both playing essentially the same data, but both can only be recorded on proprietary recorders? Whats the point?

I'm confused. Somebody please help. Also, please make DVD+R go away while you're at it. I have DVD-R and I want MY camp to win.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 06-08-2003, 06:09 AM:

What is the difference between DVD-ROM, DVD-Video, DVD-RAM, DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD+RW?

DVD-ROM is a play-only optical disc similar to today’s CD-ROM. The DVD-ROM has a much higher storage capacity (4.7Gbytes per side).

DVD-Video is a play-only disc that will hold a full length feature film. The DVD-Video will hold 135 minutes of high quality video and will add extra’s like multi-language support, subtitles and even interactivity. The DVD-Video quality is higher than laser discs and VHS. DVD-Video titles can be played in DVD players and computers with DVD-ROM players and MPEG2 decoder boards.

DVD-RAM is a rewritable version of DVD. Panasonic launched DVD-RAM to the PC market over two years ago but the lack of domestic DVD-RAM video machines has meant that its first mover advantage has been lost. The recordable disc is held within a caddy - this protects the media from dust contamination but means the discs will not work with existing DVD players. It uses a phase-change recording principle. TDK has developed a new type of phase change recording material called AVIST (Advanced & Versatile Information Storage Technology). It is expected that major DVD-ROM drive manufacturers will soon release DVD-RAM readable DVD-ROM drives, which have a standard tray loader.

DVD-R is a write-once recordable version of DVD. It uses an improved cyanine dye, similar to the material used in CD-R. DVD-R can be used for both DVD-ROM and DVD-Video applications.

DVD-RW: Pioneer’s DVD-RW format is a naked disc that has been developed from CD-RW technology using a phase changing dye between disc layers. Thanks to AVIST, TDK has already completed development work on a phase-change layer that is ideal for the DVD-RW format. Although current DVD players will not replay DVD-RW discs, next generation players may well do as the format has the backing of the DVD Forum in Japan. The first domestic recordable DVD players to market (early this year) are likely to be DVD-RW.

DVD+RW: Developed by Sony, Philips and Hewlett-Packard, DVD+RW is another naked disc format but has the advantage of being more compatible with existing DVD drives. DVD+RW promises full backward compatibility with existing DVD-ROM drives and DVD-Video players. However, the DVD Forum does not sanction this format as yet – this will delay compatible players coming to market, but both Sony and Philips are active members of the Forum.

The DVD Forum’ sets the standards for DVD technologies and has endorsed 3 different recordable DVD formats; DVD-RAM, DVD-R & DVD-RW.

-Panasonic, Toshiba and Hitachi are backing DVD-RAM.

- Pioneer is the corporate force behind DVD-R and its rewritable extension, DVD-RW.

A fourth format, DVD+RW, is backed by Philips, Sony, HP, Ricoh and Yamaha, but has not yet been approved by the Forum.

The three different flavours of recordable DVD trying to become the digital home video format of the future are DVD-RAM, DVD-RW and DVD +RW

Each has approximately the same recording time using Mpeg compression - between two hours at DVD quality and five hours at VHS quality – and can all be re-recorded up to 100,000 times.

However, they are not interchangeable, so the chances are only one will survive as a domestic format. Just which one that will be is still wide open.

The main roadblock to arriving at a single DVD recordable format has been DVD-Video/DVD ROM cross-platform compatibility.

INFORMATION COURTESY OF TDK UK LIMITED

www.tdk.com

Sony are bringing out a DVD recorder that supports both DVD-R & DVD+R formats priced at £800UKP. $1,329USD.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-08-2003, 06:46 PM:

Thanks for the info.

My DVD player will effortlessly play back DVD-RW's, as will a friend's much older JVC DVD player.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 06-08-2003, 09:45 PM:

Over at www.dvdrhelp.com there is a searchable chart of DVD players and the media types each supports. Specifically, here.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-10-2003, 05:29 PM:

Are reliability rates improving for DVD-R written discs? I was eager to buy a new dual-CPU G4 Mac loaded with Final Cut Pro and a new three chip MiniDV camera until I read some reports about how flaky some of the drives are.

I have noticed some newer DVD writers which support both -R and +R formats, along with higher speeds. How are these drives doing compared to existing drives?

It's all probably academic anyway. I waiting to see if any of the DV camera makers will incorporate native 16x9 CCDs and 24P into some newer models.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 06-12-2003, 10:51 PM:

Today, I bought a Panasonic DMR-E50 console DVD recorder that records on DVD-R and DVD RAM. I'm starting to transfer material from laserdisc to DVD so I'll have a backup (and more convenient way to play the stuff) of the material. I bought a console recorder rather than a computer-based one since I have a lot of hours of stuff to transfer and I don't want to tie up the computer while transferring.

The DVD-R discs written by the unit read fine on my two other Panasonic DVD player models (A300 and A310), except one chapter consisting of credits only for "The Minds Eye". On the A300 (from 1997, a first-generation player), this one chapter, which I recorded at LP rather than SP, plays as if a scope film is played without the anamorphic lens. A 0.667:1 image is played, centered on the screen! All other chapters were recorded at "SP" and they play fine. The Panasonic A310 (from 1998) locks up as soon as it touches the "LP" title.

My Toshiba 3109 DVD player from 1999 will not touch the DVD-R disc with a 10-foot pole. It says "Check Disc" when the disc is loaded.

The Denon DVD-900 player from early 2003 plays the first part of the disc successfully, but starts freezing up and having problems about one hour into the disc and won't play the stuff at the end of the disc.

So, it looks like I'm okay if I record everything in SP mode (2 hours a disc) and use Panasonic DVD players.

I haven't tried the Pioneer DVL-909 laserdisc/DVD combo player (from 1998) yet, but I'm sure it will work fine. It's the only thing I have that would play a DVD-RW that a friend brought over. Friends have brought written DVDs over in various formats, and the Pioneer DVL-909 has played anything that's ever been stuck in it, while the Toshiba 3109 has never played any written media, except one CD+R that a friend brought over once.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-13-2003, 03:43 AM:

Pioneers are awesome since they play everything.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 06-13-2003, 08:47 AM:

I have owned the Panasonic E30 (DVD-R,DVD-RAM) which I got rid of for the Phillips DVDR-985 (DVD+R,DVD+RW). My comments apply only to these two stand alone (non computer) units.

Neither format is 100% compatible with existing video players.
Both formats have "issues" in regards to screwing up disks.

As to the Panasonic (DVD-R,DVD-RAM)

I did not like the machine itself. It's remote and menues were confusing.
DVD-R worked ok, but it was not compatible with my some of my other DVD players. Menues were text only.
DVD-RAM is compatible only with Panasonic built players (including Samsung, which are just rebranded Panasonics). Not only that, but according to the instructions, DVD-RAM recorded in "video mode" would only play on the recorder that it was record on. I never got to test this, however.
You could not put chapter stops where you want them. I understand this was fixed in later models.
Draconian copy protection, that copy protected everything you recorded, regardless of source.

The Phillips (DVD+R,DVD+RW)

Machine and it's menues are much easier to use, much more intutitive.
You can put thumbnail pictures from the disk into the menus.
DVD+R seem to be compatible with more players than DVD-R, but I have found neither format to be 100% compatible.
DVD+RW plays fine in most of my other players.
Quick finalization of DVD+R
No finalization of DVD+RW required, even to play on other players.
Phillips quality control sucks. The machines software had bugs out of the box. Phillips has since sent me several updates on CD-ROM which have fixed most of the problems, but I can't load the latest upgrade (that gives me 2 more record speeds), because they broke DVD+R recording. In fact, this machine has so many bugs, and the Phillips programming is so bad, that there is a user web site devoted to the upgrades and what they fixed and what they broke.

Overall, I like DVD+R slightly better than DVD-R, since my older players seem to have less glitches with the +R format. On the other hand, I think neither format is ready for prime time for video use.
/Mitchell

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-13-2003, 11:23 AM:

As a side note, if you're developing PS2 games and need to burn test DVDs, the ONLY player that's certified by Sony for that purpose is a Pioneer. The Pioneer A04 and A05 are the current models I think. And the only Sony-approved precision burner for creating PS2 "gold masters" is also a Pioneer, which has to be special-ordered. 'nuf sed? [Wink]

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 06-13-2003, 01:59 PM:

So far the DVD forum has not actually specifically adopted any format yet. They do have thier preference, but it does look as if the DVD+R/RW camp will win. It has a higher compatibility factor, ease of use, reliability etc.

The number of companies climbing on board this format is climbing ever higher, forcing the DVD forum to take this format seriously.

I have had no problems with this format as of yet. I use the Verbatim Producer 2.4X DVD+R/RW recorder. No problems yet at all. I can get two hours of video with 2 channel sound with no problems at all.

The disks cost more than the -R/RW versions, but that will change as the format begins to explode.

As for phillips bad QC, this came from a marketing decision to roll out the players nearly 18 months ahead of schedule in order to push thier own format over and above what was currently taking shape. So far, the plan is working, and they are dealing fairly well with the out of the box problems.

I personally feel that Phillips was very pissed in general that CD-I fell flat on its face, and wants to shove it up Sony's ass.

Dave

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-13-2003, 03:03 PM:

quote:
Pioneers are awesome since they play everything.

Ummm, your Pioneer wouldn't play your CDR DVD, remember? [Smile]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-13-2003, 05:19 PM:

Yeah, but I don't care about discs limited to 10 minutes of quality video. Not really an advantage for me. I have DVD-RW and it does not require finalization to play either.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-13-2003, 05:21 PM:

Why is there a double post above? I only pressed submit once. Glitch in the forum. I did not even edit it. I would delete it myself if I could. I'm suing.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 06-13-2003, 08:38 PM:

Toshiba's are known for not playing other formats other than DVD-Video, Audio Cd's and MP3 discs.

I just want a burner that will work in all players without the hassles.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-15-2003, 02:25 PM:

That's pretty much impossible. There are too many older players out there that won't play recorded media. Hopefully they will be phased out soon like CD players that can't read CD-R. I don't know who would want a DVD player (or CD player) that couldn't play user recorded material.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 06-15-2003, 04:47 PM:

Update: I reported in my earlier post that my Denon DVD-900 would not play the DVD-R I made the night I got the recorder (the Panasonic). The Denon would skip and freeze when trying to play anything behond approximately one hour into the disc.

Last night, I had a friend over and I was going to demonstrate the problem to him. I stuck the disc in the Denon and it would play everything on the disc, regardless of where I scanned. Does DVD-R media get more stable a day or two after it has been recorded? Can anyone think of a logical explanation of this?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-15-2003, 04:53 PM:

That is weird. I have never seen it get "more stable" as time goes on. Was this the same disc? Maybe the lens was dirty before and the speck or two of dust that was on it have flown off since?

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 06-15-2003, 05:21 PM:

Well, since " professional " pressed DVD's work in every player, what format are they using? That seems to be the one to go with.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-16-2003, 08:22 PM:

Pressed DVDs are literally pressed, glass masters are pressed onto a blank. The data is recorded as tiny pits in a plastic surface. There can be 2 layers of this surface, the pickup focuses on the layer it wants to read. The lower layer is coated to be reflective and the upper layer is transparent.
Do-it-yourself DVD burning is quite different. The data is recorded by altering the disc's working layer material using heat applied with a laser. DVD-R and DVD+R permanently record by altering an organic dye, DVD-RW uses a layer that has 2 states that can be changed back and forth depending on the temperature applied and is thus capable of being erased and re-recorded.
The discs are read with a laser beam that scans the track of data dots. Pressed discs modulate the reflected light through a wave cancellation effect; when the reading laser beam passes over a pit some of the light travels further before reflecting, and is no longer in phase with the reflection from the surrounding area so the reflection is dimmer(only possible because of the coherent laser light). Burned discs work by reducing the reflectivity. The early DVD players didn't anticipate this new method, and their pickups and data electronics don't recognize the slightly different optical response very well. I guess that to reduce noise, they just ignore anything that doesn't exactly match what would be expected from a pressed disk.
So basically you can't make any decisions on what recordable format to use based on pressed discs.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 06-17-2003, 08:50 AM:

Thanks for the info Dave.

Posted by Steve Anderson (Member # 364) on 07-09-2003, 01:59 PM:

Wow Evans! I have a lot of laser discs .....I hadn't thought about the DVD console recorder.Are you pleased with the DMR-E50?
My neighbor just bought the Sony external DVD-R +RW at Best Buy for $389. He also bought DVD-X Copy ( while you still can )
Sweet program for making "back-up" copies of DVD's

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-09-2003, 04:01 PM:

I just got the Philips 985 recorder that uses the +R/W format, since it dropped down to $399. I've recorded a few laserdiscs and they're almost identical to the orignal. My main player is a Pioneer DVL-909 and it plays these fine, though it can't handle the lower-quality recording modes- it shows those squeezed in the middle of the screen. I don't really want to use those anyways.
I have several old VHS and Beta tapes picked up at flea markets with TV recordings and commercials that are over 20 years old, so I'm going to put all of those onto DVD so I don't have to worry about them deteriorating. I just did an America's Top 10 show from 1980 with Casey Kasem- highlights include an interview with Deborah Harry from that new group called Blondie (their song "Call Me" was #1 on the singles chart that week) and a commercial for the movie "Fame", opening next week at the Cinerama Dome.
The "+" formats give you a lot more flexibility than the "-" formats. Most important to me is that you can make a recording on a +RW, then go back and put chapter stops wherever you want, which will also work on other players. The +R's can't be recorded over obviously, and you can't add chapter stops later. If you know what you're doing you can mark chapters while you're recording though. The Playstation 2 will play the +R discs but not the +RWs. For some reason I just had to see my DiscoVision ABBA laserdisc played on the Playstation!