Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: OKLAHOMA! Fly on the Lens?

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-08-2004, 09:13 AM:

I have had the Laserdisc release of this for quite awhile and recently bought the DVD. Both have quite different openings which I attribute to the elements that they were derived from, 65mm and 35mm versions.

But does anyone have any scoop on what happens at the end of both versions? There seems to be some kind of flying bug that moves in front of the lens at the very end of the film as everyone rides off under the Oklahoma sky and as the camera pans up. In the Laserdisc it is much more pronounced and even looks as if some kind of process shot was used to cover it up -- a square block of the sky is moved for a few frames, presumably to cover whatever was recorded on the lens, as the camera pans up and just as the "The End" title appears. At least this is what it looks like to me. There is definately some kind of weird process of the sky for those few frames.

In the DVD, there isn't that chunk of sky that is moved, probably because the bug isn't nearly pronounced as in the LaserDisc version, but it is still there...a flying shadow....something that appears for only a frame or two.

Anyone have an explanation? Anyone even seen this?

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-08-2004, 05:17 PM:

Frank,

I have seen "OKLAHOMA" many times. First in a theatre in 35mm CinemaScope and many times after that in 30fps 70mm Todd-AO. Like you, I have both the laserdisc and the DVD and will check it tonight. If it only involves only about two frames, I might not notice the flaw like you did because my vision might not be as shatp as yours.

-Claude

Posted by Edwin Graf Diemer (Member # 545) on 03-08-2004, 06:24 PM:

I've seen it too, and only in the Todd-AO version. It's either a bug flying in front of the lens or some dirt that they are kicking up. The detail in the transfer is amazing-just check out the lace in Shirley Jones' dress at the beginning of "Out Of My Dreams". You can practically count the threads-just another example of what we have lost presentation-wise.

Posted by Gilbert Travin (Member # 2138) on 03-09-2004, 01:49 AM:

Hi Claude !

Oklahoma is not available in zone 2 edition. Have you any information about this release ?

Thanks !

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 03-09-2004, 07:26 AM:

Oklahoma! is at the top of my musical list.

The Cinemascope version and the Todd AO version are different.

In the scope version of "Surry with the Fringe On Top" number, a white moth flutters across the frame in front of Gordon MacRae, and Shirley Jones.

I have always noticed the bounce in the sky shot at the end of the scope version at the credits.

I have both versions on tape. Please dont make me run both of them to count the differences!

[ 03-09-2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Bruce McGee ]

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 03-09-2004, 02:30 PM:

It's some kind of bug bumping onto the lens surface, judging from the way it moves.
On my Region 1 DVD it takes place at 2:25:32, but what really puzzled me is the strange cut about 2 seconds later. A part of the long crane shot seems to be missing, the action visibly jumps. This last shot is on dupe negative as you can see by the change in color and contrast, possibly because the fade out to black and superimposing of the end title was done in an optical printer.

Since this DVD obviously was derived from the 30 fps 65mm version, maybe some part of the negative has been damaged in printing and was not available for telecine. Any other explanations?

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-09-2004, 03:54 PM:

Hello Gilbert,

Because I do not follow other region DVD releases, I am very sorry I do not know anything about the Region 2 version of "OKLAHOMA" and why it is not available. The film has been out on DVD for some time now here in the United States in Region one because of the popularity of the original Broadway stage and movie version. If you have an all region DVD player, I am sure you can mail order it from a US vendor that ships to Europe. Fox released a box set of three Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals consisting of the very rare "THE SOUND OF MUSIC " Five Star Double disc special edition , "THE KING & I" and "OKALAHOMA". I think the price here in the United States is about $60.00 and if you like the other two musicals, I would get the collection.

-Claude

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-09-2004, 04:38 PM:

Claude
Fox has re-released a new double disc "Sound of Music", special edition. It's been out for a few months now.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-09-2004, 09:20 PM:

Bill,

Yes, I knew Fox was once again releasing "THE SOUND OF MUSIC" as well as several other two discs special editions including "THE ABYSS", "INDEPENDENCE DAY", "CAST AWAY" and possibly "PATTON" and "THE PLANET OF THE APES" (Remake version). As of now, these two disc special editions are hard to get because they are only available at Best Buy and Borders. Tower Video, Circuit City and Walmart in our are does not have them - yet. I did get "CAST AWAY'" from Border a few weeks ago and I really like the digipack cover over the original double disc Amway case. I think the packaging looks very classy.

-Claude

Posted by John Stewart (Member # 989) on 03-09-2004, 10:29 PM:

A buddy has a 16mm print of Oklahoma and I've noted that "fly" on End title on that print print as well. Also have noticed it on the video versions except the newer TODD-AO version. Did not notice it on the 70mm version we had at the theater a few years ago.

Posted by Gilbert Travin (Member # 2138) on 03-10-2004, 06:48 AM:

Hi Claude

Thanks for your answer !
I beleave that some french stores have a few "zone 1" dvd, I will look at them ! My player can read zone 1 dvd's.
The King and I (with Yul Brynner) is available in a magnificient zone 2 version (I have it !) with a 2.55 aspect ratio and stereophonic-sound english track (mono in french, alas).
The Sound of music is also available in zone 2 (I have a poor VHS version ... [Mad]

)

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-10-2004, 02:40 PM:

I have the two-disc "Five-Star" DVD "Sound of Music", which also has the Charmian Carr travelog and the 87 minute recollection documentary.

My wife and I enjoyed watching the feature again last night. One minor distraction is the "bounce" in density as each title card came off and on the screen during the opening credits. Is this on all copies? Slightly overenhanced video too.

I wrote about my first experience with SOM in "The Splendor of 70mm" here:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/dec98.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/pytlak/march99.shtml

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-12-2004, 12:31 PM:

THE FLY MYSTERY CONTINUES.

I looked once again at both copies -- the early LaserDisc made from the the 35mm neg and the DVD, made from the 65mm. As everyone knows, two very different movies. Here's the head-scratching mystery. The fly or insect of some kind is clearly visible on BOTH versions. The shots are totally different, taken at obviously different times of day as the sky background is totally different and the lighting is at a later time of day as well. But in both versions you can see this anomoly. In the 35mm version, it is very noticable with an insect shape for about 5 frames; in the 65mm version it is there, but with less discernable form, more like just a dark round speck, where as the 35mm object has a definate insect outline. Also in the 35mm version, the insect actually has a flying movement going toward the top of the screen then changing directions and going sideways and downward. In the 65mm, it is just a speck that moves but only in two frames, but there is no question it is there.

So here's the mystery. Since there is no question that these two shots are taken at different times, how can it be that some insect can hit the lens in exactly the same spot in the shot? And how could it be that such an important shot -- the last shot in the film with the characters all riding off into the sunset, be allowed to be marred by an insect fly into the lens? You would think that would be a retake issue if ever there was one.

Anyway, the fact that this takes place in both shots taken at two different times is still totally uncomprehensible to me. If anyone has a theory, I'd love to hear it.

Frank

Oh, and PS -- I said I thought that some process element was happening, possibly to cover up the "fly" but after looking very closely at the 35mm version (which is where this is evident -- it does not happen in the 65mm version), it seems this is just a product of inserting the THE END title with poor resistration. Something weird happens in the registration of the block that is used to insert the title for a frame or two, but it doesn't look like it's anything to do with the fly, which is already out of the shot by the time the title and the cloud misregistration takes place.

Frank