This is topic "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" on DVD in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-10-2004, 02:55 PM:
 
Paramount released "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" many years ago on DVD just about the time they entered the market with the new video format. . The movie on the two discs was in the original VistaVision aspect ratio and 16X9 enhanced and in my opinion, the picture quality was superb. If there ever was a film that retained it's original Technicolor image quality, this was it. I have a 35mm dye transfer strip of film from the movie and compared the scene on it with the DVD and the image quality was very close. Paramount once again released the movie on DVD this week and still retains the original video transfe. Some of the new features on the new release that made me want to buy the movie on DVD again was the bonus material consisting of a 6 part documentary on the production and cast, newsreel coverage of the world premiere in New York and best of all, a running commentary on the film by Kathrine Orrison, an author and historian of "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS". Beside "THE ROBE", THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" has been my favorite biblical film and I have seen it many times in theatres and at home. If the movie is also one of your favorites, the Orrison commentary alone is worth the 'price of admission'. Some of the facts covered in the commentary included the original intention by Cecil B. DeMille of using William Boyd of Hopalong Cassidy fame to play Moses instead of Charlton Heston. He also wanted Audrey Hephburn to play the Anne Baxter roll of Neffertiri and Clint Walker to play Joshua instead of John Derek. Beside the film's casting, Ms Orrison. also discussed the photography and pointed out what part of the film was shot in Egypt and what part was shot at Paramount's studio and back lot in Hollywood. A lot of interesting facts were also covered on the film's many special effects. After listening to numerous film commentaries on other DVDs, I consider Kathrine Orrison's running comments as one of the best I ever heard.

Beside the film commentary, 6 part documentary and the newsreel premiere coverage, the two disc set also includes the three theatrical trailers that was on the original DVD. The original DVD MSRP for "THE TEN COMMENDMENTS" was $34.94, but the price this time is $19.95 but you can buy it for less at most video retailers. By the way, the two discs are housed in a rather weird packaging. The case looks like a standard double disc but there are two hubs inside that holds the two DVDs on top each other. I was fortunate to have a standard empty double case and promptly transferred the discs into it because in my opinion, the original packaging was very bad.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-10-2004, 10:00 PM:
 
Claude,

I have the preview from the Ten Commandments in I.B. Tech complete with Cecil B. narrating it. The color is an absolute knockout and its running time seems like its as long as the film... but is actually about 12 minuites. Still all in all a very long preview. The Bucaneer had a similar treatment for its preview as well.

Mark @ CLACO
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-10-2004, 10:35 PM:
 
Mark,

My home town theatre, the Waipahu operated by Consolidated use to show that long trailer during all of it's shows to promote the road show engagement at the Kuhio and after a short period of time, it became very tedious to watch because of it's excessive length. The snack bar was very busy when the trailer was on and the bathroom was always crowded.

By the way, the trailer is included on the DVD and the color looks great.

For those who are interesting in buying a copy, I saw the DVD on sale at Costco this afternoon for $11.95.
Bummers! I paid an extra $3.00 for my copy at Towers.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-10-2004, 10:45 PM:
 
For DVD watching, it might be nice to have Cecil at the beginning, then the overture. However, for theatrical exhibition it has to be the other way around. The overture is to let people know the film is about to start, and to pay attention and shut up. To put Cecil at the beginning would require ANOTHER overture...if he just popped onto the screen, people would be shuffling and finishing their conversations and the first half of his (very interesting) bit would be lost.

On the subject of that trailer/documentary...it's hard to believe anyone actually wanted to see the film after watching that thing!
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-10-2004, 11:19 PM:
 
Ten Commandments is one of my guilty pleasures.
 

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Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 03-10-2004, 11:22 PM:
 
Just what is it ABOUT this overture? The music is not heard anywhere in the actual film. And apparently they still aren't using the correct AR on this film, which was composed for 1.85 (although more of the image is showing here).
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-11-2004, 01:30 AM:
 
An overture does not neccessarily have any of the other music from the work, for example, check "The Overture King" Gioacchino Rossini. I think most people have been programmed by the pastiche overture style of American musicals.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-11-2004, 02:48 AM:
 
William,

You are correct about musical overtures. This is fact and not too many people are aware of it but the overtures of Gioacchino Rossini has no relation to almost all of his work. Just to give everyone an idea how care free he was about overtures , the introduction to "IL BARBIERE DI SIVIGLIA" (Barber of Sevillle) is also the overture to another lesser known opera of his titled ELIZABETHA" and is about Queen Elizabeth the first of England.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Gilbert Travin (Member # 2138) on 03-11-2004, 04:31 AM:
 
Claude ;

It is a good news !
I hope that a zone 2 version will be soon available. The actual version has a good picture but the sound (english and french) is horrible ....as the 35 mm flat-version that i had watched ... 30 years ago !
 

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Posted by Robert Harris (Member # 1712) on 03-11-2004, 08:07 AM:
 
Paul,

The aspect ratio of 10C was actually composed ( as you're aware as a Vista title) as an amorphos affair.

However, the intent was toward Vista projection at 1.96, and 35 projection anywhere from 1.66 to 1.85, with the 1.66 looking more proper for the 35 reduction elements, which also lost a bit of their sides in the process.

Generally, for this film going with a 1.85 plate for 35mm projection crops too much of the image vertically, especially for the raising of the obelisk.

Projection of the Vista image at 1.96 most closely replicated an area of 1.66 - .75 in 35 four perf projection. There is that much lost in the reduction process to 35. Possibly its a matter of semantics.

rah
 

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Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 03-11-2004, 09:44 AM:
 
Robert,

I was going by the presentation booklet that was reproduced in the Widescreen Museum. According to that, the proper projection for TEN COMMANDMENTS was 1.85.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/demille2.htm
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-11-2004, 02:24 PM:
 
Gilbert,

Yes, I agree about the sound on "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" home video version. So far, I bought the movie on various formats many times on tape, laserdiscs and the two DVD pressings and have found the stereo sound very lacking in all of them. Based on what I had read regarding how the film should be projected, I got the impression, all standard 35mm prints were released to theatres in mono with optical sound. However, I did did get an opportunity to see a short horizontal VistaVision film strip from "STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND" starring James Stewart released one year before "TEN COMMANDMENTS" and I recall it did not have a soundtrack on it. This means the horizontal VistaVision version used a double system and I suspect the soundtrack was stereo and recorded on mag film. I heard only a limited amount of stereo prints were available for "TTC" and they all might have been the horizontal VistaVision prints which played in large cities like New York and Los Angeles.

The original Dot LP soundtrack album I still have is mono because stereo sound on records did not exist until two years later in 1958. The music however was recorded in full stereo and that was the recording used on the home video version and theatrical prints if the horizontal VistaVision prints was released with a separate stereo soundtrack. From what I can determine, the soundtrack on the DVD sounds like all of the dialogue and sound effects were recorded in mono.

Paul & Robert,

The vistaVision negative film frame is 8 perf. and from what I can tell, the framining on the DVD looks very close to the dimension of what was recorded on film. I understand the Super VistaVision version in 70mm of "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" was projected in 2.20.1 and I can only assume the result was terrible. I remember waliking out when I saw "GONE WITH THE WIND" in 70mm presented this way with the top of everyone's head cropped off.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Gilbert Travin (Member # 2138) on 03-12-2004, 02:06 AM:
 
Hi Claude and all !

Thanks for your answers which confirm what I thought : original VistaVision had a separate magnetic sound track and mono print are very poor... I remember the performance of "Ten Commandments" with a P55 Prevost, the sound was horrible : the "S" sounded as paper which one tears.
Have you watched 35 mm anamorphic-releases with a 1.33 (or 1.5, I don't remember exactly ! ) squizz ratio ? Are they better ?
 

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Posted by Robert Harris (Member # 1712) on 04-09-2004, 08:51 PM:
 
8 Perf VVLA releases (all two or three) had variable area optical tracks at the top of the frame.

The Ten Commandments, and most other Vista productions, were never meant to be seen in their native aspect ratio, which was 1.5:1.

When not properly cropped, one would be looking over, under and to the sides of the image meant to be seen.

The only use of the entire 8 perf image was via Technirama.

RAH
 

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Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 04-14-2004, 08:43 PM:
 
The main titles on the DVD (and on previous video versions) seem to have been blown up and cropped on the left and right, though. The heraldic borders don't go all around the frame.

According to Michael Schlesinger's (of Sony Repertory) postings on rec.arts.movies.tech, the borders on the titles were composed for CinemaScope extraction and so would've been perfect for 2.21.

Anyone seen the 70mm blowup and can confirm?
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-14-2004, 10:40 PM:
 
Why should the main title card for "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" be composed for CinemaScope? As a person who has seen the film during it's original road show presentation as well as several of it's popular price showings in theatres in the fifties , the way it is featured on the DVD is very close to the way I have seen the movie projected on a theatre screen. Instead of using all of the image on a VistaVision negative, the 70mm Super VistaVision version of "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" was very badly cropped when they reformatted the film to a 2.20.1 aspect ratio. As I had mentioned in a previous post, MGM did exactly the same thing with "GONE WITH THE WIND" and it was terrible!!! In almost all of the scenes, the top of veryone's head was cropped off. Although I did have an opportunity to see the restored "VERTIGO" by Robert Harris, I only saw it in 35mm instead of 70mm with DTS sound but even the composition in that version in large format was 1.85.1 and not in a pseudo wide screen ratio. Beside "VERTIGO", there were many films released in 70mm in the 1.85.1 ratio such as Steven Spielberg's "ET" and "EMPIRE OF THE SUN"

-Claude
 

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Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 04-15-2004, 07:01 PM:
 
Yes, I have no doubt that the DVD looks exactly the same as the 35mm reduction prints you saw. In fact, on letterboxed VHS, the scribed VistaVision framing marks could be seen during the start of the main title, and they clearly indicate the 1.85 area.

As for why compose the titles for CinemaScope, might as well point to the firsthand account: the Google archive of Mr. Schlesinger's posting on rec.arts.movies.tech. As for the Dome aggravating the cropping, see a post from someone who saw the 70mm blowup somewhere other than the Dome.

Of course, they could've just shot two versions of the titles, who knows what they were thinking 50 years ago?

This sort of thing where truth is stranger than fiction reminds me of that rumor (still being passed around online) about Ronald Haver having a film collector arrested so he could get access to missing elements for the reconstruction of A Star is Born (1954). It's easy for some film collectors to believe that a somewhat controversial person pulled a dirty trick, but it's harder to believe that the collector was turned in by a friend of his who saw the preliminary reconstruction and became outraged that he was hoarding the elements. Mr. Haver's book recounts the latter in some detail, and does it earnestly enough that I'd rather believe him than a rumor.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-15-2004, 07:20 PM:
 
Tao,

"THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" has been one of my favorite films ever since I first saw it in the mid fifties and I have read countless technical articles about the film and you and the references you provide are the very first to state the film was photographed in both scope and VistaVision. Despite your claim, Cecil B. DeMille's film was only photographed in VistaVision and presented that way in all theatrical showings and recent video wide screen releases. Please visit the WideScreen Museum on the internet and when you do, the person who wrote the illustrated topic on the film process states Paramount preference for VistaVision over CinemaScope.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 04-16-2004, 12:15 AM:
 

quote:

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"THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" has been one of my favorite films ever since I first saw it in the mid fifties and I have read countless technical articles about the film and you and the references you provide are the very first to state the film was photographed in both scope and VistaVision.

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I have several friends in Los Angeles who love movies like we do and share our fondness for 70mm presentations who have seen the spruced up version and hated it due to the severe cropping of the original VistaVision image.

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Although Tao did not say it was shot twice, he gave me the impression that he believe there is a possibility it was from the links he had provided.

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• Read things in context and don't rush to conclusions based on one sentence. (In the context of his entire speech, Al Gore never said he invented the Internet, in fact he didn't even use the word invent)
• In the future, quote other people's posts using copy-and-paste, not by typing in what you thought you read.

quote:

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8 Perf VVLA releases (all two or three) had variable area optical tracks at the top of the frame.

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Robert, I have some questions about Vista prints. This is the only sample of 8-perf Vista print that I have:



I believe that it is from 'Battle of the River Plate', (can anyone confirm thiis?)

It clearly has a VD track, so both types of tracks must have been used.

I first saw a sample of Vista print when I was at College in the mid '70s, I was unaware of the process until I saw this, I don't know what film it was from, but I do remember that it had a VA track, duo-bilateral I believe, but it's a long time to think back.

Can you tell me anything about the track shown above? It seems to have little, if any, silver or cyan dye in it. The scan is rather dark, the track actually has rather low optical density. The cyan dye has clearly faded with time, but what about the silver? Was it a dye-only track, and if so, how was it reproduced on the equipment in use at the time. I have seen a number of tracks similar to this, but all the others have been on 16mm prints, and the sound quality from them has been generally rather poor. I could believe that an inferior type of track might have been used to make cheap 16mm prints of educational titles, where the sound quality was not of great concern, but it seems unlikely that if would have been done for an 8-perf print. I have seen other VD tracks on faded colour prints, but they seem to have much more silver in them.

I know that many of the 4-perf reduction prints of Vista titles had Perspecta tracks; dou know if any of the 8-perf prints also had them?

Do you have a full list of the titles which were publicly shown as 8-perf prints?

How was the restoration of 'Vertigo' done? obviously, the original elements would have been Vista, and the final internegs for printing would have been 65mm and 4-perf 35mm, but at what point in the process was the conversion made, was the film kept in Vista format during most of the work, or was it printed to 65mm at an early stage, and most of the work done in that format.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-17-2004, 09:11 PM:
 
You can tell if there is silver in the track by measuring a D-Max area with an infrared (800nm peak sensitivity) densitometer, and comparing the density to a similar dark area in the picture. Or illuminate the print with a tungsten illuminator, and view it with an infrared sensitive "night vision" scope. Areas with silver will be clearly darker.
 

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Posted by Robert Harris (Member # 1712) on 04-19-2004, 07:12 AM:
 
Stephen...

This certainly appears to be Mr. Powell's work.

The prints of "Vertigo," both 70 and 35mm, were derived from the same 8perf interpositives and dupes, ie. we went both up and down in size from the original vista elements, which is the only way to preserve the quality of the original.

This same concept comes into play when creating a 70mm blowup from a 35/4 source element.

70mm prints produced via blowup in the 60s and 70s were generally all produced from original 35mm A & B rolls, which resulted in superb quality and a great deal of wear on the Onegs.

Once we hit the 1980s, 70s were produced in two additional ways.

One could either produce a 35mm IP from the Oneg and use that as a source for a 65mm dupe, which resulted in a large format print without much of the detail found in the original...

or via a 65mm IP from the 35/4 Oneg, which achieved a far superior result. An examaple of this can be found in prints of Silverado.

The obvious point here is to either get to your large format element at the earliest stage, or to leave large format at the latest stage in production of elements.

RAH
 

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Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 04-19-2004, 08:10 AM:
 
This coming Sunday 4/25/2004, The Museum Of The Moving Image in NYC is going to be running an original 1956 dye-transfer (IB) Techincolor print of The Ten Commandments. While I have no idea what aspect ratio they are going to run the in, I can tell you that this print is hard matted to 1.66.

Museum Of The Moving Image
 

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Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 04-19-2004, 08:14 AM:
 
Stephen,

I also have a length of “Battle Of The River Plate” faded just like yours, so I would say it is from the same title. You will also find some faded frames on Hugh’s Cinephoto website.

Could it be that “Battle Of The River Plate” was one of the few dye type soundtracks that Rank Labs tried out on some Eastmancolor releases.

I ran many Cinecolor releases with cyan dye tracks over 50 years ago without any soundhead modifications, but that was in the optical mono days. I did hear of a chief projectionist on the ABC circuit that used to insert red gelatine in front of the excitor lamp when showing Cinecolor.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-19-2004, 08:37 AM:
 
Hello Bernard, haven't heard from you for a long time.

My frames came from the packet of samples enclosed in Dion Hanson's 'Fantastic Formats' booklet. A reel of the same film, in the same condition, was what I saw projected, without sound, at the exhibition at Grip House Studios a few years ago. Even in that condition it looked impressive.

I have never found chromogenic dye VD tracks to sound very good, compared to silver ones on black and white or IB prints.

Somebody who once lent me a Cinecolor print told me that the blue/cyan image was made by toning with a metalic compound, which absorbs strongly in the infra-red. I don't know if this is correct. The print I saw had very low visible density, but it didn't sound as bad as it looked, played with an old glass photocell.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-19-2004, 01:32 PM:
 

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Somebody who once lent me a Cinecolor print told me that the blue/cyan image was made by toning with a metalic compound, which absorbs strongly in the infra-red.

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If toning were used, it would have to have significant density well into the infrared (>800 nm) if used with an S-1 response cell and tungsten "white" light. Simple using a red dye gelatine filter (as opposed to a dichroic IR-rejecting filter) would not solve the problem of unwanted transmission.
 

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Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 05-02-2004, 06:35 AM:
 


I wonder what Cecil himself would have to say about the DVD releases of 10-C and such things as whether his intro or the Overture should come first. I do have the original DVD release but never saw the new one in costco here as Claude reported.

It will be difficult to find out what Cecil thinks as he is buried in the Hollywood Memorial Park Cemetery not too far away from Paramount across the street. But one of these years, if visiting there again, I will ask him.
 

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Posted by Robert Harris (Member # 1712) on 05-02-2004, 08:26 AM:
 
As with a number of other roadshow releases, there were specific instructions given to theatre management regarding precisely how a show was to be run.

These were prepared for The Ten Commandments.

The most intricate that I've seen were for original performances of Mad World.

RAH
 

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Posted by Patrick J. McCart (Member # 1043) on 05-03-2004, 08:38 PM:
 
Martin Hart has the full roadshow instructions for The Ten Commandments on his American Widescreen Museum:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/showmanship.htm

There's also instructions for Gone with the Wind, El Cid, West Side Story, and Ben-Hur.
 

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