Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 16x9 transfers from non-16x9 master?

This is topic 16x9 transfers from non-16x9 master? in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000273

Posted by John Lasher (Member # 968) on 03-11-2004, 11:20 PM:

Some older discs (Fox's "Predator" for example) were transfered as 4x3 (I'm guessing they used the same masters from the laserdisc versions). Some of these titles have been re-released with 16x9 transfers.

My question is: Are the 16x9 transfers actually new transfers, or could they have taken the old 4x3 versions and "created" 16x9 versions?

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 03-12-2004, 01:11 AM:

I'm pretty sure they are new transfers. I hope fox re-releases True Lies and Strange Days soon, those are begging for new transfers.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 03-24-2004, 01:18 PM:

quote:
Are the 16x9 transfers actually new transfers, or could they have taken the old 4x3 versions and "created" 16x9 versions?

In some cases the new DVD was sourced from a fresh transfer. In other cases, an old master is re-used. In many cases an earlier version may have been mastered in hi-def (even if issued on DVD in a non-anamorphic/4:3 letterbox version) so the studio will often see no reason to pay for a new transfer.

It is not unheard of for 4:3 transfers to be "upconverted" to 16:9. This method won't necessarily improve the image quality but does give the issuing company the marketing advantage of claiming a DVD is in a 16:9 enhanced format thus giving the impression to the consumer that there is some quality.

quote:
I hope fox re-releases True Lies and Strange Days soon, those are begging for new transfers.

Fox did do a new tranfer of True Lies; it is available on D-VHS D-Theater format. That title along with Universal's Backdraft are two titles that are available on D-VHS without a "companion" remastered DVD being released. These two D-VHS versions smoke the currently available DVDs.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-24-2004, 02:35 PM:

I do not know anything about "BACKDRAFT" but I have been hearing about a special edition of "TRUE LIES" . It seem that James Cameron does not care to spend time on movies he had already released to theatres such as "TITANIC" and "TRUE LIES". He said he would work on them but only if he can find the time when he is not working on a current theatrical feature. The only film he gave a helping hand with a commentary was the SE of his original "TERMINATOR" on DVD. Although he wrote the screenplay with Jay Cocks and produced the film with Steven Charles Jaffe, I have a special edition of "STRANGE DAYS" on a DTS laserdisc. Although, there is a better quality available now of "TRUE LIES", Fox will not release it until Cameron provides additional material so a special edition can be released on DVD. I understand "TRUE LIES 2" was in the final planning stages before Arnold decided to run for governor of California. Now that he has been elected, the project is on hold and I am not sure if it ever will be made. I heard the special edition of "TRUE LIES" was going to be out at the time the sequel was released. The original DVD of the movie I had was one that was stolen along with many others in a burglary and I have not replaced it until a better one is released. I am in no hurry for the DVD because I also have "TRUE LIES" on a DTS laserdisc.

-Claude

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 03-24-2004, 04:12 PM:

-------------
It is not unheard of for 4:3 transfers to be "upconverted" to 16:9
-------------

Howzatagain?

A 4:3 videotape source master for home video release cannot be 'upconverted' to 16:9 and still maintain proper aspect ratio, unless the tape was itself 16:9 to begin with and the subsequent 4:3 release of that tape was a so-called 'pan & scan' job.

If you take a 4:3 source master to 16:9, you will either wind up with stretched-unnaturally-wide imaging, serious cropping Gone With The Wind style or bars on the side of the image to flesh out the frame. You can, of course, take a 16:9 source image and down-convert it to 4:3, it happens every night on Leno.

Posted by John Lasher (Member # 968) on 03-25-2004, 11:53 PM:

Observe, how I will "upconvert" a frame from the VHS master of "Lose it All" from 4:3 letterbox to 16:9.

Here we have boring, stupid old 4:3 letterboxed. See how boring and square-ish it is.

I'm going to convert it to make a new 16:9 version.

The red box is the same shape as the 16:9 transfer is going to be. Now I just do a little "computer magic" and...

TA-DAA! A brand-new 16:9 transfer and I didn't even have to go back to the original source. It doesn't look any better than the old 4:3 transfer, but it's a new 16:9 transfer! Yay!!

Alternately, if the fullscreen version was done open-matte, a 16:9 version could be extracted thus.

4:3 version

16:9 version

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 03-26-2004, 09:29 AM:

Actually, John, what you've done here is prove my point. In the lower example, you've taken a 4:3 image and severly cropped it to fit 16:9 by enlarging the center of the image and losing large portions of the upper and lower frame. This is exactly what I ment by cropping Gone With the Wind style (attempting to matte a roughly 1:33 image into 1:85 or wider) and is hardly what you would hope to find on a DVD.

Your original post, BTW, made no mention of the 4:3 master carrying a letterboxed image to begin with, in which case I would have conceded the point. There remains, however, no way to 'upconvert' a full frame image 4:3 master to 16:9 without altering the original image to its detriment.

Posted by John Lasher (Member # 968) on 03-27-2004, 12:40 PM:

Actually, the lower example has not been cropped any more than it would have been if you were watching the movie in a theater as the 4x3 version was open-matte instead of pan & scan.