quote:

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1) The familiar Force theme trumpet fanfare that used to play right after Red Leader says: "This is it!" and just as the X-wings start diving towards the Death Star's surface has been dialed back in volume so that it's almost inaudible - it's almost completely buried in the surround mix.

2) The audio quality varies wildly as Tarkin says the line: "You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system." - almost as if the master sound element was damaged. It's very distracting.

3) Possibly most critically, John Williams' entire score for the film has been flipped in the rear channels, so that what should be the left rear channel is playing from the right rear channel (and vise versa). What this means is that the rear channels don't match the front channels - instruments heard from the front right channel come from the left rear instead of the right rear. Again, this is very distracting once you notice it.

These problems are certainly severe enough in our opinion to merit a repressing/exchange of the disc. We're waiting to hear back from Lucasfilm on this issue and we'll update this review with the details as soon as we do.]

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Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-20-2004, 09:31 PM:
 
Thanks a lot, Bobby! I now have even -more- reason to rent it first tomorrow to see how annoying the errors and changes are before laying out the cash and buying it. Glad I didn't preorder!

It is disappointing, tho.

Ron Yost
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-20-2004, 10:34 PM:
 
There already has been a good amount of fan anger for over a week now about the audio mixing errors, particularly with regard to John Williams' Oscar-winning score.

I just read a long list of changes cataloged by a forum moderator at a John Williams fan 'blog (www.jwfan.net).

What gets on my nerves about this deal is the only way I'm sure I would ever get a corrected disc in a dependable manner is if I bought the screwed up box set and mailed in the first disc for a fixed copy.

There are still defective copies of the "Back to the Future" DVD trilogy on store shelves. There are even DTS fans getting stuck with weak-bass versions of "Jurassic Park" still in existence. I had to wait about 8 weeks for my fixed DTS version of JP to arrive in the mail. I haven't bothered to send in my defective discs of BTTF II and III yet. I probably would have made the exchange immediately if the first BTTF film had the matte framing error very noticeable in the two sequels.

It's just a damned pisser. Seven years overdue to the DVD format and the "Star Wars" trilogy arrives loaded with really questionable revisions and outright mistakes.

Lots of folks hate the change made to ROTJ where Hayden Christiansen is added into the end shot with Yoda and Alec Guiness. The very worst change made, IMHO, is the one with the emporer and his spoiler dialog. He tells Vader in this scene that not only did Skywalker blow up the Death Star, but that he is also Vader's son. That totally blows the surprise intended for the audience when Vader laid the truth onto Luke. I guess Lucas cares more about people watching these films in supposed numerical order rather than the order of time in which the films were released. Me? I prefer the latter.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-21-2004, 12:26 AM:
 
So how do DVD errors like this even occur? Doesn't anyone actually watch the finished DVD before it is packaged and shipped? Why not?
 

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 09-21-2004, 06:57 AM:
 
You guys are aware that some audio was changed between the 1977 release, and the release when Episode IV was added to the titles?

It's George's Movie. He can screw it up all he wants.

I dislike 'new and improved' movies.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-21-2004, 02:53 PM:
 
I've been listening to Empire play here at work, and I've noticed several audio changes just by letting it play in the background. Han's line "I dunno how we're gonna get outta this one" right before the Falcon gets hit by an asteroid has been tweaked awkwardly for example.

But there have also been a couple of positive changes too. For example, when Luke says "I feel like..." Yoda says "Feel like what?" and Luke spins around, Yoda's "AH!" is back. It was removed for the Special Edition. That example is something that illustrates how sound effects and dialoge can have a musical rhythm to them, and when that "AH!" was removed, it totally screwed up the rhythm of that scene for me when I listened to it. I'm glad it's back.

I know they aren't errors, but the first is definitely awkward the way it sounds now... at least it is to me. The 2nd WAS awkward, but it sounds better now. I could go on and on, but I'll spare everyone of my "nit-pickiness"... for now anyway.
 

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Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 09-21-2004, 03:35 PM:
 
I read an interview given by Carie Fisher (sp?)in my Home Theatre magazine about these DVDs, and I can honestly say I'm not into Lucas like I used to be. He even said that he didn't have a 35mm projector anymore, and that Digtal is this, Digital is that. I'm seen a print of Shrek 2, Filmguarded after 3 straight months of 4-5 shows a day...and it looks PRISTINE.

...moron
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-21-2004, 05:39 PM:
 
Aside from the deliberate audio changes made through all 3 DVDs, the fact still stands that the music score on the original "Star Wars" film (or Episode IV if you prefer) was botched. It is flat out a total mistake for the score to be flipped backwards in the surround channels. That error needs to be corrected and the disc recalled and replaced.
 

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-21-2004, 11:56 PM:
 
Actually, that quote from Bits about where the music dies in the assault on the Death Star is slightly wrong. It is the musical cue after Red Leader says, "I'm gonna cut across their axis and try and control their fire." The music at that point has ALWAYS hit a crescendo...even more evident when just listening to the soundtrack on CD. Either way, I HATED how that is either changed or botched.

As for the flipped surrounds, I didn't notice it upon my first viewing but probably will if I view it again. If this really is the case, big mistake and an exchange should be offered.

One thing I absolutely loved was how Vader's voice is cleaned up very well in ANH. It really made him more menacing, which is the intention.

Finally, I think we will eventually get the original versions in some form, sometime after Episode III, especially if their is an outcry over these versions of the film.

AJG
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-22-2004, 12:13 AM:
 
How could the music in the surround channels be flipped when the movie had mono surround originally? Didn't it? And if it were split surround on 70mm, how the hell would any home viewer notice the switch on DVD 10 billion years later? I don't recall hearing much, if any music in the surrounds in the Special Editions, and I have the Dolby Digital LaserDiscs as reference.
 

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-22-2004, 07:07 AM:
 
I too have the 97 LD release, so I did a little comparison of a couple scenes at the end. The surround channels are flipped for sure during the throne scene, but you have to listen really closely to hear it. It is weird, but only weird when comparing it to the 97 release. In fact, based on my early observations, the 97 mix seemed more balanced than this new mix on DVD, which at times seems a little harsh. I'm going to check some more scenes later to test this theory. Actually, I know Gary Rydstrom did the mix or at least had a hand in it in 1997, does anyone know if he did for the new DVD? Could this account for the possible harshness?

Of course, this is all in reference to A New Hope.

AJG
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-22-2004, 09:45 AM:
 
What was the sound format for the original 70mm releases of Episodes IV-VI? I would have assumed that they were format 42 (L/C/R/S/LFE/LFE), but is it possible that they had split surrounds (format 43)?

The original 35mm prints would have been matrixed Dolby A (possibly dual-inventory with mono).
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-22-2004, 10:28 AM:
 

quote: Scott Norwood

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(possibly dual-inventory with mono).

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quote: Scott Norwood

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What was the sound format for the original 70mm releases of Episodes IV-VI? I would have assumed that they were format 42 (L/C/R/S/LFE/LFE), but is it possible that they had split surrounds (format 43)?

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quote: Scott Norwood

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What was the sound format for the original 70mm releases of Episodes IV-VI?

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quote:

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Why not look up the titles in the Feature Info & Trailer Attachment category?!

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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What gets on my nerves about this deal is the only way I'm sure I would ever get a corrected disc in a dependable manner is if I bought the screwed up box set and mailed in the first disc for a fixed copy.

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quote: Michael Schaffer

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But I don't remember any music in the surround channel either back in the old days

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Neither do I, and I saw Star Wars 4 times at 3 different theatres in 70mm back in 1977. I specifiucally remember very little surround usage, and couldn't even hear the famous effect of the opening spaceship coming overhead. the only surround usage I remember were the sounds of the creatures on Luke's home planet echoing throught the twilight and the echo of Luke and Princess Leia's voices when they notice there is no way to get across the retracted bridge inside the death star. I couldn't discern any surrounds during the climatic battle, either. Only when I saw it a few weeks later in 35mm Dolby SVA was there some surrounds for the music and effects, but for all I know, this could have been leakage.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-23-2004, 11:53 PM:
 
The Digital Bits' website published a response from Lucasfilm, which basically denied any of the mix for "Star Wars" was botched. Concerning the score being botched, it comes down to two valid points expressed on a number of DVD review websites and 'blogs.

The first point is the effect is distracting. I'm hearing violins playing in the front left channel and then a point sourced double of it in the right rear.

The other valid point is the score mix, at times, mimicking the layout of a real orchestra. Violins, horns, harps, etc. are to the left. As you work right, you have 2nd violins, violas, cellos, bass, etc. If you hear violins playing front left and the sound is meant to bleed to the surrounds, naturally the left surround would need to pick up that audio. With it happening in the right surround it seems very misplaced.

But then "noticing it" comes to the other major complaint: the music score is dialed down often. There are certain memorable, key points in the score that are all but inaudible in this mix. I know it's important for the disc's sound effects to slam well. But I have lots of DVDs where the sound effects kicked much ass without stomping out the music score.

I'm glad others have noticed the harsh-at-times quality with the audio on the "Star Wars" disc. That's a bit surprising, given the DD bitrate is 448kb/s. There's just something going on with the mix itself. The beginning where the Blockade Runner is being chased by the Star Destroyer sounds particularly harsh, even with the added explosions in the split surrounds when the shot cuts to C3PO staggering in a hallway on the spaceship.

Many have pointed out Governor Tarkin's "give me another target, a military target" line. One that got my attention was a line from Luke (at 1:27:27), "What good will it do us if he gets himself killed?" (Han runs after stormtroopers on the Death Star). The dialog volume jumps on that line and sounds like a bad ADR drop-in. And the line seems like it gets clipped at the end.

Aside from all the whining, there are plenty of good things about these discs. The video quality is really good, likely a testimonial to the restoration work done. I might have overlooked some things, but the only complaint I have is with the look of the Death Star explosion. I don't remember all that strange blue noise around the explosion. Here's a screen grab from the DVD (reduced to 500 pixel width):



The first time I saw it I thought it was an video encoding defect. That blue stuff could be there on purpose, but it just looks odd.

quote: Bobby Henderson

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The very worst change made, IMHO, is the one with the emporer and his spoiler dialog. He tells Vader in this scene that not only did Skywalker blow up the Death Star, but that he is also Vader's son. That totally blows the surprise intended for the audience when Vader laid the truth onto Luke.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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Many have pointed out Governor Tarkin's "give me another target, a military target" line. One that got my attention was a line from Luke (at 1:27:27), "What good will it do us if he gets himself killed?" (Han runs after stormtroopers on the Death Star). The dialog volume jumps on that line and sounds like a bad ADR drop-in. And the line seems like it gets clipped at the end.

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quote:

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John Williams' entire score for the film has been flipped in the rear channels, so that what should be the left rear channel is playing from the right rear channel (and vise versa).

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The original theatrical didn't have P and Q channels. I agree, they must be comparing it to other home releases. But then, who's to say which one is right (or left)?
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-10-2004, 04:00 PM:
 
Just listened to EP IV....the whole mix sucks and sounds compressed, no dynamic range at all!!

Yes, there is new music during Ben's place.

The blue explosion effect appears to have been added.

The opening stormtrooper scene's fire efx were also enhanced.

I'll stick with my LaserDisc version of this one, much better quality.
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 12-10-2004, 06:22 PM:
 
This may interest a few of you.

Given the ongoing disappointment over tweaks made to "Star Wars," allow me to take this opportunity to provide a link to a little something I've put together in an effort to (1) document the original release of "Star Wars," and (2) to keep the memory of the original 1977 time period alive. Enjoy!

http://www.fromscripttodvd.com/star_wars_a_day_long_remembered.htm
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-10-2004, 07:06 PM:
 
Pretty informative page you've got there, Mike.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-15-2004, 10:01 AM:
 
Very nice summary.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-15-2004, 01:31 PM:
 

quote: Tim Reed

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The original theatrical didn't have P and Q channels. I agree, they must be comparing it to other home releases. But then, who's to say which one is right (or left)?

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