Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: No Blu-Ray DVD?

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-30-2004, 01:44 AM:

Here we go again... the HD-DVD version of Beta vs. VHS... (I smell Beta, SDDS, etc... AGAIN!)

From Variety

-------------------------------------------------------
Posted: Mon., Nov. 29, 2004, 11:29am PT

Billions at disc risk

Opposing studios say no way to Sony's Blu-ray format

By BEN FRITZ, PAUL SWEETING

The biz is bracing for Betamax -- the sequel.
In a decision reminiscent of the tech conflict that changed the industry forever, three studios -- Warner, Universal and Paramount -- have taken sides in a battle for the next-generation DVD market by endorsing a format, HD DVD, that will compete with one backed by Sony.

Decision means that starting next fall, consumers will be faced with high-definition DVDs with similar features but two incompatible formats.

Backing HD DVD's competitor, Blu-ray, will be the 8,000 pic library of Sony and its soon-to-be partner, MGM. Sony and MGM had a combined 19% of the DVD market through October, while Par, U and WB accounted for 41%.

Putting the Lion in the Blu-ray camp was a significant reason behind the Sony-led consortium's agreement to acquire the studio for $5 billion.

Toshiba, the main tech company behind HD DVD, is believed to have joined with Time Warner to back a last minute unsuccessful bid for MGM for the same reason.

Yet to declare their allegiances are Disney, Fox, DreamWorks and Lions Gate. New Line and HBO are aligned with their sister company and DVD distributor Warner.

At stake are billions of dollars in patent and copyright fees and tens of billions of dollars in consumer spending on movies, TV shows, music and videogames. Any confusion in the marketplace by consumers could delay and possibly derail anticipated incremental revenue that could mirror the windfall enjoyed by the introduction of DVD.

HD DVD releases are expected to start by the fourth quarter of next year, along with the first players, and will include a mix of new releases and library titles that should reach several dozen from each studio. Blu-ray machines and discs, meanwhile, likely won't hit the market until 2006.

Such plans are based on the assumption that consumers will adopt high-def DVDs aggressively, as they did when shifting from VHS to DVD.

Convincing consumers

One major problem studios have is convincing consumers that a new player and more expensive discs will be worth the investment. High-def DVDs offer around six times as much storage capacity as current DVDs and allow for interactivity through broadband Internet connections, but studios have yet to figure out what they'll do with the storage beyond vague plans for more content and shipping entire seasons of a TV show on fewer discs.

Next-generation DVD players are expected to cost around $1000 when they launch late next year, with prices falling quickly as has happened to current players. Discs are expected to cost $5 or $10 more each.

Biggest draw may be the higher video quality hi-def DVDs enable. But to really see the difference, consumers will also have to purchase digital televisions. Over 13 million are in the U.S. market so far, with the Consumer Electronics Assn. predicting that over 10 million more will be sold next year.

Studios are eager to push the new formats to generate new revenue -- and because of their more robust copy protection. While current DVDs are relatively easy to hack, high-def discs are considered by tech experts to be nearly invulnerable, which could put a dent in film piracy.

No surprise

Warner's announcement came as little surprise, since Time Warner holds some of the patents and copyrights behind the HD DVD format, along with Toshiba and others. In addition, the format was championed by former Warner Home Video president Warren Lieberfarb, now a consultant to Toshiba.

It's widely believed that Par and U were seeking cash and other incentives from both groups and that at least one of the uncommitted studios is still holding out for a more lucrative incentive. Insiders suggested that more than one studio was offered as much as $30 million, but the three studios involved in the announcements Monday say they did not receive any cash incentives.

One studio exec suggested that his studio did, however, receive a break on royalty fees. And according to one player close to the negotiations, Par and U almost certainly won either financial consideration or a change in the technology to their liking in order to make an early commitment.

Leveraging both sides

Many believe Fox and Disney are hoping to use the leverage of an undecided position to push both technologies to adopt features they prefer. Fox is currently working with the organizations developing both formats.

"Fox and Disney don't want to endorse a format until they have used up all of their political capital to influence it coming out the way they want," observed Paul Kocher, prexy of content protection company Cryptography Research.

The launch of competing and incompatible formats for the same new product is viewed almost unanimously as a scenario that could lead to an unsuccessful launch of the format.

After years of costly fighting in front of consumers, Sony lost the original homevideo format war in the 1980s when its Betamax could not stand up against the less expensive VHS vidcassette that also offered more recording time.

Format divide

The downside for consumers with competing formats is that many movies will be made available only in one format or the other. So far no studio other than Sony has said it will produce programming exclusively for one format or the other, but economics will likely make that a de facto situation.

"We will let the consumer be our guide, but right now we do not plan to release product in Blu-ray," Universal Studios Home Entertainment president Craig Kornblau said. "Our priority is HD DVD."

Execs at studios choosing HD DVD Monday said the lower cost of transitioning current DVD manufacturing plants to the other format was a key driver of the decision.

"It's simply a less expensive product to replicate," said Paramount worldwide home entertainment prexy Thomas Lesinski, a former lieutenant of Lieberfarb's at Warner. "We won't have to amortize the costs of retooling factories."

Anxious to get on with it

After initially dragging their feet on a next-generation format, the studios now seem anxious to accelerate the transition from standard to high-definition DVD. Beyond piracy protection, they're also hopeful it can help raise margins in the face of cost-cutting by big retailers like Wal-Mart, as well as jumpstart some foreign markets.

"I don't think we've fully monetized our assets in standard definition in a number of countries," said Warner Home Video prexy Jim Cardwell. "There are still territories where DVD penetration is well behind the U.S."

Blu-ray supporters, meanwhile, expressed confidence that studios would come back their way and seized on piracy concerns as an advantage.

"The difference is that we rely on a whole new manufacturing process, and the (licensing) standards are going to be much stricter in the beginning," said Sony homevid prexy Ben Feingold. "You're not going to have every replicator in the world selling pirated product out the back door."

Faster take-up?

Feingold also noted that Blu-ray has a broader commitment from hardware makers right now than does HD DVD, meaning the installed base of Blu-ray players will likely ramp up more quickly.

In addition to consumer electronics companies, computer makers Dell and HP plan to introduce PC-based Blu-ray disc drives next year. Sony also plans to base its next-generation PlayStation console around Blu-ray, potentially adding millions of playback devices when it launches in 2006.

HD DVD backers have said they hope to get Microsoft to use their format in the next version of Xbox, but the tech giant hasn't made any decisions yet.

(Scott Hettrick contributed to this report.)

Read the full article at:
http://www.variety.com/story.asp?l=story&a=VR1117914089&c=20

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-30-2004, 04:00 AM:

A moron wrote that article. And Scott Hettrick contributed to being a moron. First of all, I don't know why everyone in the world thinks Blu-Ray is all Sony. Sony Sony Sony. Panasonic owns more financial investments in Blu-Ray than Sony does. There are also some dumb comments in the article, like:

quote: Variety
High-def DVDs offer around six times as much storage capacity as current DVDs and allow for interactivity through broadband Internet connections, but studios have yet to figure out what they'll do with the storage beyond vague plans for more content and shipping entire seasons of a TV show on fewer discs.

Hmmmm... maybe fill it with HIGH DEFINITION VIDEO PERHAPS? The article assumes that HD video takes up the same amount of space as regular PD (Pathetic Definition) video.

quote: Variety
Biggest draw may be the higher video quality hi-def DVDs enable.

Geee... ya think? If the author's stupidity was toilet paper I'd be wiping my ass for decades!

quote: Variety
Studios are eager to push the new formats to generate new revenue -- and because of their more robust copy protection.

You can suck my balls, studios (and MPAA for good measure)! Price them right, and there will be no need for piracy. But we all know you'd rape your own moms for an extra dollar. That's what the studio execs are all about!

quote: Variety
The launch of competing and incompatible formats for the same new product is viewed almost unanimously as a scenario that could lead to an unsuccessful launch of the format.

Oh yeah, home video recorders do soooo poorly. Oh and DVDs vs DivX. Yeah, nobody's watching movies on disc these days. And let's not forget about home camcorders! What, we had VHS, VHS-C, S-VHS, S-VHS-C, 8mm, Hi8, MiniDV and who knows what else. Way too many formats! That's why the public as a whole never bought into the whole idea of home video cameras. And let's not even get into the subject of videogames which have at least 3 different, incompatible platforms on the market at any one time and games that cost waaaay more than DVDs. Naw, videogames never did well... that's why they're only a multi-billion dollar a year industry.

Anyway, I sure hope Blu-Ray wins, because it is by far the better format. I don't like the limitations of HD-DVD. Limitations are retarded. And plus, there's not exactly gonna be a mad rush for either format, even if there was only one and it was cheap. Most asswipes are perfectly happy with normal DVDs and in fact think that normal DVDs are high definition! They wouldn't be conned into buying something that costs more that won't play on their machine, despite the limited intelligence of the average consumer. Good luck, both parties... you'll need it!

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 11-30-2004, 08:02 AM:

quote: Phil Hill
Such plans are based on the assumption that consumers will adopt high-def DVDs aggressively, as they did when shifting from VHS to DVD.

What a crock of crap! It took years for people to adopt DVD. In fact they still make VHS copies of everything, and it wasn't until last year or so that DVD production finally outdid VHS production in pre-recorded media.

People are wary of new technology coming out too quickly. Most people are still just getting used to thier DVD's to want to update to any further format. Most people still can't afford to buy all those DVD's and then will be forced to buy a more expensive version, when they still have crappy tv's to show them on.

Instead of VHS/Betamax, this reminds me of INTEL, plain and simple. It was a matter of mere months when they went from Pentium 2, to pentium 3, to Celeron, to dual pentium 3, to pentium 4, to pentium doritos's, to pentium pokemon, and so on. They nearly advanced themselves into oblivion putting that much technology out that fast. People need YEARS to digest it all before moving forward.

I am still running a Celeron 600, because THATS ALL I NEED AT THIS JUNCTURE IN MY LIFE. I still use a 20 year old piece of crap tv because for the same reason as listed above. While the new tech dvd's would be really NEATO, i dont need them. And like most people, won't need them for about six years.

My thoughts is that people will not gobble up either format, and that blu ray will eventually win the fight, but will take years to do it. You will not see blu ray soaking up the dvd market until about 2015, when it will finally out produce the standard dvd.

This is about the same amount of time it took for DVD to do that to VHS. So why is anyone caring half a rats anything anyway?

Another reason this is nothing like VHS Betamax, is that when the VHS Betamax fight was waged, people did NOT HAVE any movie recording format or way to view movies at home. This was new so the technology had to fight it out for dominance.

WHen dvd outdid VHS, it was slow and methodical, not quick by any means. It took nine years from its introduction to out do it, and still VHS is in the market. You will see standard DVD product in the market until 2025.

Remember how long it took CD's to take hold from vinyl and compact cassette tape? And you can still find vinyl in special release editions, not sure about tapes though.

So DVD owners feel safe. You have about 20 years or so to get used to bluray.

Ciao baby

Dave

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-30-2004, 01:19 PM:

The biggest problem facing HD-DVD is the relatively low installed base of high definition televisions. There are very few CRT-based or LCD-screen "digital TV ready" monitors worth a damn on the market. You've gotta spend at least $2000 or more to get a product that is going to be somewhat satisfactory. Add to this the $1000-ish prices HD-DVD may feature in its "early adopter" phase.

The Blu-Ray camp is making a smart move in getting the #1 and #2 largest computer makers (HP/Compaq and Dell) involved. One of the areas where Blu-Ray stomps the crap out of HD-DVD is data capacity. A Blu-Ray disc can hold a lot more data and transfer a higher video bitrate. By comparison, HD-DVD seems more like a repackaged version of regular DVD, just with adding only a few megs more of bandwidth and severely increasing data compression ratios.

IMHO, the HD-DVD guys are risking that format becoming another DVD-A niche thing that interests next to no one. I say this because some of the folks choosing HD-DVD also want the format to be highly restrictive and limited in use. Blu Ray is more forward looking format in that Sony and others are marketing it to have more uses than just a high definition video playback format. The Blu Ray camp also seems to be the only group providing a timeline for big improvements, such as 200GB discs.

I think Sony should try to make some other deals, particularly with Apple Computer. Apple's marketing muscle would help the format and tie Blu-Ray use into professional video production and digital content creation. Sony and Panasonic could develop cameras and other hardware directed at Blu-Ray. Apple could integrate Blu-Ray authoring into their killer apps like Final Cut Pro HD and DVD Studio Pro. These kinds of moves would build up the prestige factor of Blu Ray as the superior format. And then those developments could trickle down into the consumer end level where HP/Compaq and Dell are positioned. There is a lot more money in that game than what pre-recorded DVD sales have to offer.

I also have a chuckle a bit about the HD-DVD people talking about getting Microsoft on their side. Hmmm. Why would Microsoft want to do that? The movie industry only seems to want to make moves that would screw up computer hardware sales and other moronic shit like that. Dell, HP/Compaq and even Sony mean more to Microsoft than some Hollywood big wigs. So, if anything, the next version of X-Box might be more likely to feature a Blu-Ray drive in it than an HD-DVD drive.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-01-2004, 07:04 PM:

The recent announcement that several studios would be offering HD-DVD's did not preclude their also offering Blu-Ray disks. Unless there was another announcement subsequently that I missed I don't know why someone is putting that spin on it. This thing is far from won by anyone.

Says the New York Times:

quote:
And to be sure, the commitments from the four studios to make HD DVD's do not prevent them from also releasing titles using the Blu-ray format. Pony Canyon, Japan's largest distributor of prerecorded DVD's, for example, plans to release titles in both formats, according to spokesmen for Toshiba and Sony.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-09-2004, 11:02 PM:

No Blue Ray ha.... this ought to kelp it along nicely......

Mark

CNN Article
Disney backs Sony's DVD format
Thursday, December 9, 2004 Posted: 9:42 AM EST (1442 GMT)

LOS ANGELES, California/TOKYO, Japan (Reuters) -- Walt Disney Co. said on Wednesday it would support the Blu-ray standard for next-generation DVDs backed by Sony Corp., but kept open its options for a rival format championed by Toshiba Corp.

Sony, Dell Inc. and several other giants of the electronics and computer industries developed Blu-ray technology. Toshiba, with NEC Corp. and Sanyo Electric Co. Ltd., is backing a competing standard dubbed HD DVD.

The high-definition HD DVD and Blu-ray technologies use blue lasers, which have shorter wavelengths than conventional red lasers and allow discs to store more data, producing the clearer and sharper pictures of high-definition films and TV.

Disney said it would start releasing movies on the Blu-ray format as soon as players became available in North America and Japan, which strategic planning chief Peter Murphy said he expected in 2006.

"Everyone is looking for the right format ... to release their content. That is a combination of consumer adoption of the players and the platform, content protection, and adequate capacity. We think Blu-ray is there," Murphy told Reuters in a phone interview.

Murphy said the agreement with Blu-ray was non-exclusive and that Disney would release content in other formats if they met the studio's criteria for consumer adoption, content capacity and copyright protection.

CLSA Asia Pacific Markets analyst Carlos Dimas said the announcement could be viewed as a positive for Blu-ray, but not a slam-dunk.

"It's positive, but it has not put Sony significantly ahead of the HD DVD standard. It continues to be a contest," he said.

Disney's announcement comes nearly two weeks after Toshiba said it had won support from Warner Bros, New Line Cinema, Paramount Pictures and Universal Pictures, representing about 45 percent of Hollywood's U.S. sales of prepackaged DVDs.

Support from U.S. film studios is vital in the format battle, just as it was when the VHS standard prevailed over Sony's Betamax two decades ago.

Blu-ray also has the support of Sony Pictures and the tacit backing of Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc., recently acquired by a Sony-led consortium.

It is also counting on Fox Entertainment Group Inc.'s Twentieth Century Fox, which recently joined the Blu-ray Disc Association board, but a Fox spokesman said the studio was still evaluating both formats and had not committed to either.

Assuming Fox's support and adding Disney with its market share of 17.2 percent, Blu-ray would have 47 percent of Hollywood's prepackaged DVD sales, according to industry data provided by Toshiba for the six months to June 30.

Disney said it would become the 15th member of the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), which promotes the format.

"This is a big step for the BDA," said Sony spokesman Taro Takamine.

Shares of Sony were boosted by the news, rising 1.05 percent to 3,840 yen by the midday break and outperforming the Nikkei average's 1.22 percent decline. Toshiba was unchanged at 444 yen.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-10-2004, 12:10 AM:

BDA? Where do they get the "A"?

Posted by Dylan Marchetti (Member # 2764) on 12-10-2004, 03:02 AM:

I think the problem is that there's nothing being offered to the average consumer by either format. We're the informed crowd, the movie geeks, and the technophiles- we know how much better the HD video's going to look and how nice the uncompressed sound is going to be. But Joe Average is going to look at it and say "what's the difference, and if it's so much better, why are the black bars still there?"

The reason DVD took off as quickly as it did (I bought my player in 1997, when it was $400 for a low-end one and there was one rack of DVDs at Best Buy, and look what happened by 2001) is that anyone could easily see the difference between VHS and DVD. Everyone knew how much better CDs were than cassette tapes, and applied that to DVD. But without that drastic of a gap, I think Joe's dead right- look for a 15/20 year battle.

Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 12-18-2004, 04:12 PM:

I wish I still had the article, but did you know that blu-ra disks are made out of corn? Kid you not! Its a derivative of corn.

This is why blu-ra kicks ass. If you blow your compilation, or just cant stand having all that storage space, you can just put it in some cheese dip and eat it.

Ciao baby

dave

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-18-2004, 10:47 PM:

BDA = Blu-ray Disc Association

www.blu-ray.com

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-18-2004, 11:23 PM:

It'll be interesting to see how robust or fragile the Blu-Rays end up being. Because of the multi-layer encoding, the playback surface is very thin and easily damaged, enough so that the group originally looked at putting the discs into caddies to protect them. But people hate disc caddies. Ultimately the group went with a scratch-proof coating on the playback side.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-19-2004, 01:11 PM:

All I have to say is that I'm not re-buying my collection again. I already have 3 copies of BASEketball on 3 formats, so I don't need yet another one. [Wink]

Yes, Joe, I am a dumb consumer who is happy with shitty definition DVDs. Or maybe I am a smart consumer who doesn't jump for every carrot that the greedy capitalists dangle in front of me! [Big Grin]

Screw Blu-Ray, Screw HD-DVD... Screw anything that makes people re-buy everything they already own. I'll at least wait until the new generation becomes burnable, then I'll just bootleg all the titles I already own citing the Fair Use Act. [Razz]

Here's an idea: Technicolor Dye Transfer DVDs! Each movie takes 3 discs, one for each color, allowing the full bitrate of the dvd to be dedicated to just that color. The discs play in a special 3-disc player which sends the color stream of each disc into its respective Y Pb Pr connectors. Each disc contains its own 5.1 mix allowing you for 15.3 channels of audio. I smell the future... [Roll Eyes]

=TMP=

OOOH! Post #1666 [evil]

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-19-2004, 02:26 PM:

Thomas, why would you matrix the full-bandwidth RGB of your IB Technicolor discs (IBT-DVD?) to the half-bandwidth color difference outputs of component (Y, Pr, Pb) for the output? Since you're in RGB on the discs already, just leave it in RGB all the way to the display device. This is of course assuming the studios will let you have an unencrypted full-bandwidth (8:8:8?) RGB copy of their property outside of the display device to begin with. [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-21-2004, 10:27 PM:

Bandai Visual (a huge distributor of anime product in Japan) announced they are going with BD.
So the current tally is:

HD-DVD:
Disney
New Line
Paramount
Time Warner
Universal

BD
Bandai Visual
Fox
MGM
Sony Pictures (formerly Columbia/Tristar)

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-22-2004, 09:39 AM:

I don't know. I kinda smell a similar situation brewing between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD that already exists in the video game console industry. Most console titles being released these days get released for Playstation2, X-Box and even Nintendo's Game Cube. There's not very many exclusives out there for any single gaming platform.

With that said, there's really nothing to stop a movie company from releasing a movie in both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats. Thompson Consumer Electronics has stated they're looking at making DVD players that will play both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs.

Blu-Ray is without any doubt whatsoever the technically superior format. So it seems pretty likely that any multi-format movie release will look better on its Blu-Ray version, particularly over the significantly higher video bitrates.

Movie studios may indeed be forced to release videos on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats to get millions of customers off the fences and into the HD upgrade path. They're not going to buy if they feel their electronics investment isn't safe. Most will avoid the products if a bitter, entrenched format war occurs. The "coexistence" angle is more reasonable. Of course, the greedy bastards at the center of the format war in the first place won't make as much money over the deal, but they can get fucked anyway.

quote: Dylan Marchetti
We're the informed crowd, the movie geeks, and the technophiles- we know how much better the HD video's going to look and how nice the uncompressed sound is going to be.

I haven't heard anything about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray supporting uncompressed LPCM surround. It especially seems very unlikely under the HD-DVD format, given its rather paltry 15Mb/s peak bitrate maximum (which is only half the average bitrate of D-VHS). The Dolby Digital and DTS audio standards are mandatory standards in Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. All Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players must have built-in support for both. I don't know where other audio standards like SACD, DVD-A, etc. fit in with all of that.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-22-2004, 12:10 PM:

Thomas,

You forgot about 3D. You'd need SIX disks. Three for the left eye and three for the right.

And while we're at it, lets make one dedicated for sound. That will make it seven disks.

Good idea! [Big Grin]

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 12-22-2004, 01:31 PM:

If they really do put out 2 different HD formats, it will be the dumbest thing to happen since VHS vs. Beta. DVD-Audio and SACD are already confusing the public enough, and most are responding by saying no to both of them. Luckily you can buy players that can play both DVD-Audio and SACD; I don't have one though because my receiver doesn't have discrete analog inputs which you need for those formats. If there's 2 HD formats, I'll wait until either one kills off the other, or they make a player that handles both.
I don't think the market can handle more than one disc format at a time- when CED and Laserdisc were both out, neither sold very well. When DVD was being developed I read a lot of speculation that laserdisc and DVD would probably co-exist for a while, but look what happened- the LD market was small to begin with and DVD ended up killing most of it right away.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-22-2004, 11:50 PM:

Just about every type of digital technology has competing formats. Look at the computer industry. Disk drives: IDE, SATA, SCSI, Fiberchannel. Flash memory: CF, SD, MMC, Microdrive, etc. I could go on and on with that industry alone. The coexistence of X-Box, PS2 and Gamecube was previously noted. How about Dolby Digital, DTS and (to a lesser extent) SDDS? Some DVD players handle both SACD and DVD-A discs.

Anyway, there is really very little evidence out there to suggest HD-DVD and Blu Ray cannot coexist in the same market. But the trick to it really is electronics companies offering players that can handle both formats. I think that is the key. Phillips Electronics (one of the Blu Ray partners) has eluded to doing this very thing. I would expect Pioneer to do the same since they have typically led the pack on "universal" format players. They were first to market with DVD-A/SACD compatible players. They were amongst the first to offer DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW in a single drive. Hopefully features like DVD-A/SACD capability will be offered in next-gen HD-based disc players. That would provide more incentive to get consumers to upgrade.

I think "universal" format players are also the only sensible way for a format war to sort itself out between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. At least it is the only way where customers won't get penalized for buying into the format that eventually loses. If people like Blu-Ray discs more then they will sell better and force those wanting to release only with HD-DVD to change their release policy.

Posted by Dylan Marchetti (Member # 2764) on 12-23-2004, 03:30 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
I haven't heard anything about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray supporting uncompressed LPCM surround. It especially seems very unlikely under the HD-DVD format, given its rather paltry 15Mb/s peak bitrate maximum (which is only half the average bitrate of D-VHS).

That would be a shame. I admit haven't been following the HD-DVD specs closely- I figured it would fade away Divx-style in the face of the market penetration Sony's going to pull off with the Playstation 3. But 15Mb/s? That seems like a very small improvement for the investment that's going to be required on everyone's part.

Blu-Ray will almost certainly have the room to pull off at least one uncompressed 5.1 track, and I'll be irritated if it doesn't. Still, I don't hold much hope for this hitting the mainstream like DVD did based on what I'm hearing- I'm thinking more along the lines of SACD or MiniDisc.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-27-2004, 12:36 AM:

I haven't seen the complete specs for HD-DVD and Blu Ray to be able to tell if there is some capability for LPCM 5.1/6.1. Some of this will depend on the hardware in the players themselves. I don't know the bandwidth limits for a standard fiber-optic or coaxial digital audio connection, but my understanding is LPCM 5.1 would be too much for it. So you need some wider bandwidth connector, such as IEEE-1394 Firewire. Then you need a surround receiver with similar connections. It's either that or you have to go the DVD-A route and send out a converted 5.1 analog signal to the receiver instead.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-28-2004, 07:24 PM:

Of course the high definition DVD formats won't hit mainstream. HD itself has to become mainstream before that can happen. Lots of people are freaking out about a huge-ass format war that will matter to only the 19 or 20 people who actually have HDTVs.

Standard definition rules! Low-res FOREVER!

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 02-15-2005, 12:32 PM:

Toei and Toho (the two largest studio/distributor/theater owners in Japan) announced they are joining the BDA. Hopefully this means J-film fans can look forward to some good repertoire titles on disc in a couple of years. Linky linky

So the current tally (I think) is:

HD-DVD:
Disney
New Line
Paramount
Time Warner
Universal

BD:
Bandai Visual
Fox
MGM
Sony Pictures
Toei Pictures
Toho Pictures

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-15-2005, 01:42 PM:

Aside from where studios are aligning themselves, I have strong concerns about the hardware features of the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players. They raise some of the same issues I have with the current crop of HDTV monitors. For instance, there's still a lot of monitors on the market that have no HDMI inputs or support for that "5C" copy protection flag. That goes along with my gripe about very very few featuring 1920 X 1080 native pixels in the display.

What kind of audio and video connectors will we see in these players? Hopefully they'll have the most up to date HDMI digital outputs along with component video output. HDMI can also transfer digital audio. But standard coaxial and fiber optic connections will still be needed as well. And what about S-Video and composite outputs for backward compatibility with existing NTSC televisions? Unless a lot of those things are incorporated into the player designs they won't sell very well at all.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 02-16-2005, 12:42 PM:

quote: Phil Hill
high-def discs are considered by tech experts to be nearly invulnerable, which could put a dent in film piracy.

Isn't this the same thing they said about DVDs, before they were hacked? It is just a matter of time before anything gets hacked.

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't know the bandwidth limits for a standard fiber-optic or coaxial digital audio connection, but my understanding is LPCM 5.1 would be too much for it.

Full bandwidth HD-SDI at 1.5 GHz is sent over 75 ohm coax in broadcast and production houses, and can go several hundred feet without re-clocking. Full bandwidth 5.1 ch. audio should be no problem.

I do not understand why fiber is used in short haul consumer stuff. There is just no reason for it. Coax works just fine, and you don't have to change electronic signals to light, then back again at the other end. To me, any signal conversions are a bad idea, unless there is a reason for it. Besides, the consumer plastic fiber is CRAP. You cannot use more than 75 feet of it before the signal goes away. Digital audio on coax can be run 100s of feet (if not 1000s).

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-16-2005, 02:54 PM:

HDSDI can be sent up to about 290 feet or so IF you use good cable (3GHz stuff), IF the source is up to spec, IF the HDSDI input is up to spec, IF your cable run does not flex the cable so much (tight radius) that capacitance of the cable changes.

I've run into an HDSDI run that wouldn't make it 100-feet due to the input device being so finiky. The nice thing is that you can reclock it and send it on its way. HDSDI can also have 8-channels of audio sitting on it too.

That said...I don't know why the AV world didn't go to SD-SDI and HD-SDI in favor of analog 5-wire...just for sheer convienance cost of installation. Running 5-wires of mini-coax is more expensive than one run of RG-6. Patch bays are also much more simple when it is just one coax being switched versus 5.

As to the TOS link thing...for consumers, it is a ground loop thing. You run a TOS link cable and there will be Zero grounding issues in the audio. Other than that...yes there is little reason for running a fiber optic cable over a copper one. TOSLINK cables have come down in price so you don't have to spend a fortune. I also perfer the connection of the TOSLINK connector to the RCA (aka phono) connector...the TOSLINK is a much more solid "click" in. I like BNCs much better but try to get a consumer to work with a twist-lock connector and you will have a lot of pulled out cables on your hand. Stupid, but a fact of life. You'll note that the pros use BNC mostly. Fiber can be good for long clean (hum free) runs and they take up less space than coax.

Steve

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-16-2005, 05:35 PM:

It is interesting what they call "coaxial" as far as home digital audio is concerned. It is nothing more than a composite video jack, or a single RCA audio jack. You can use the cheapest composite cable you can find and it will still work fine and dandy.

I laugh at "pros" who use BNC for their composite video connections. They think they are the shizznit for using BNC, but they are STILL only using composite. Joke's on them.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-16-2005, 07:50 PM:

Not really Joe,

As far as the connector goes...the BNC offers a secure connector (won't just fall out) that is easily installed (more so than an RCA) and maintains the 75-Ohm impedance, even though barrel splices (if the correct connector is used.

Even with just lowly composite, signal integrety is signal integrity. Send a multiburst signal in one end, look at it on the other...everything that signal goes though (including the cable) will have a notable downgrading affect to the signal.

Composite is often used (in professional circles) for monitor feeds (with "super" and without time code information) and is often viewed just black and white. However, the signal needn't be degraded by the installation materials. A monitor feed is a representation of the presentation signal. It need not be perfect. It is cheaper to run composite (and entirely adequate) for monitor feeds than S, Component or 5-wire. Especially when you get a sophisticated switching system involved.

If you are just talking about a few feet of cable...sure you could run most anything and it would work just fine (connector or cable).

As to composite for other uses....it is the least common denominator...every piece of video gear supports it so one always must support it. It is also easy for brain-dead end-users to deal with...it has just the one cable.

You can't use S-Video...it keeps falling out of the connector. Component is right out...three different cables that must be connected to particular colors with the green one going to the terminal labeled "Y"...no way the average non-techie type is going to deal with that. 5-Wire? Sure, if it is on a VGA connector but that is starting to be a problem for the higher resolutions and frequencies...the VGA connector doesn't maintain the 75-Ohm impedance...again not a big deal for short runs. However, you now have a switching situation in that not all sources (well almost none but computers) are outputting 5-wire and the cost of cable and switchers (or patch bays) goes up geometrically.

So, composite will work for everybody...does it look like crap? You bet. Does using improper materials make it look worse? You bet...over a long enough run in a big enough system.

Kinda comes back to my "why don't folks use the SDI or HDSDI" for the various grades of signals. They are single coax solutions that look as good as their analog counterparts. I once had to run a little jumper for HDSDI (out of one component into another in the same area) with an 18" long cable...the guy I was doing this for asked if the cable was rated for HDSDI (it wasn't) but I told him that for 18", you could run even HDSDI in free air with single conductors and it wouldn't matter. The jumpers worked just fine

Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 02-18-2005, 03:00 AM:

From this month's Maximum PC:

quote: Maximum PC, March 04, p12
JVC has created a three-layer optical disc that has a 25GB blu-ray layer on top, with a dual-layer 8.5GB sandwich beneath. It can be used as a standard piece of DVD media today, and then as Blu-ray media once that technology becomes more widespread

If they can do this, whats stopping studios from releasing dual-format discs that have both blu-ray and HD-DVD?

[ 02-20-2005, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Adam Wilbert ]

Posted by Don Cross (Member # 2980) on 02-20-2005, 10:10 PM:

Also, if they are capable of doing this in the near future; I have to wonder how long it'll be before it makes it to the computer market. I'll have to check the quoted article and see if a link is possible.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-21-2005, 06:46 PM:

The computer market already has plans of adopting Blu-Ray. Dell has announced their support of the format and may be shipping Blu-Ray burners by year's end or sometime in 2006. I could be wrong about this, but I could have sworn I read a tidbit about Apple being supportive of the Blu-Ray format as well. It would only make sense for computer industry types to support this format since it has more "forward looking" technologies and much larger data capacities.

It's already a given Sony Playstation 3 will feature a Blu-Ray disc drive. There are rumors that X-Box 2 may as well.

Posted by Don Cross (Member # 2980) on 02-21-2005, 08:35 PM:

Bobby, paragraph one looks good , and I'm sure that paragraph two is accurate as well- according to the statements made by the video game companies.

Theres just one small problem though. For some strange reason all of the video game hardware companies are quite quilty of not exactly telling the truth to their customers on many occassions. Often refered to as "vaporware", these video game companies regularly misrepresent themselves when it comes to release dates and hardware specs.

They often portray their prototype hardware as to be released soon, when they have zero intentions of ever bringin it to the beginning phases of construction.

Who knows- they may eventually come out with a compatible player, but chances are that they'll never meet their release date. I have an email from Sony Underground dated last year that shows them at a trade conference stating that PS3 was to be released by now. Wonder what happened there?

Plus theres always the issue of price. When something such as the new PS3 comes out; chances are it will cost above $300- system only. Add the video converter, an extrea stick or two, the memory card (?), and a game or two and the price quickly becomes about $500.

Factor in the average cost of the games (at about fifty a piece or so) and I can't figure out why someone wouldn't go for an entry level REAL computer with a P4 chip?

Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 02-21-2005, 09:28 PM:

since we're talking about blu-ray acceptance (without getting into the console vs. pc debate), I'm sure the first generation of blu-ray / hd-dvd players aren't going to be much cheaper than $500.00. As for Joe's comment, I don't even own an HD TV, but am planning on adopting blu-ray content soon after it becomes available to 1)support the format and 2)have a collection started for the enevitable tv upgrade.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-21-2005, 10:08 PM:

The Blu-Ray disc drive is lock as far as Playstation 3 is concerned. Blu-Ray players and Blu-Ray computer disc drives will be shipping to market well before PS3 is ready to hit store shelves.

quote: Don Cross
I have an email from Sony Underground dated last year that shows them at a trade conference stating that PS3 was to be released by now.

I don't know about this "Sony Underground" thing, sounds kinda like a fan site to me. One thing is certain, I have not seen any delivery date promises on PS3 coming from Sony itself. If anything they've been pretty vague. PS3 isn't likely to be shipping for at least another year, especially while the final designs for the "Cell" 9-core main processor gets put together. The version recently shown off by Sony, IBM and Matsushita is too large a chip for production. Details about it are only being released for game developers to start coding in earnest for it. A new 65nm design has to be finished, tested and proven. I think we're looking at a timeline of at least another year for that component to be ready.

Posted by Don Cross (Member # 2980) on 02-21-2005, 10:50 PM:

Strange facts relating to the Sony underground periodical:

Its officially licensed or published by Sony here in North America. It occasionally comes with a demo disc containing some trailers and games on it.

A few months ago there was some rather interesting content discovered on the demo disc. If someone made the mistake of playing one of the games on it- some of the code on the game somehow managed to accidently erase all of the memory card(s) that were connected to the console.

This could be a rather significant type of "virus" since most people don't tend to use back-ups when storing their games on the memory cards. Even more so considering if one would have quite a few hours logged onto a game such as one which would track season stats for a sports type of game.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-10-2005, 08:15 PM:

Here's another positive development for the Blu-Ray side of the next generation HD-disc battle:

Link to news article:
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/10/bluray/index.php

quote:
Apple joins Blu-ray Board of Directors

By Jim Dalrymple jdalrymple@maccentral.com

In a joint release, Apple Computer and the Blu-ray Disc Association announced on Thursday that Apple would become a member of the consortium's Board of Directors. The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) is responsible for establishing format standards and promoting and further developing business opportunities for Blu-ray Disc.

"Apple is pleased to join the Blu-ray Disc Association board as part of our efforts to drive consumer adoption of HD," said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. "Consumers are already creating stunning HD content with Apple’s leading video editing applications like iMovie HD and are anxiously awaiting a way to burn their own high def DVDs."

Blu-ray Disc is a next-generation optical disc format being developed for High Definition video and high-capacity software applications, according to information supplied by the consortium. A single-layer Blu-ray Disc will hold up to 25 gigabytes of data and a double-layer Blu-ray Disc will hold up to 50 gigabytes of data.

Other members on the Board of Directors include Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corp.; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corp.; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corp.; Sony Corp.; TDK Corp.; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television.

Apple has been previously mentioned as being supportive of the Blu-Ray camp, but this development makes it official.

Posted by Alan Dallas (Member # 2537) on 05-24-2005, 12:47 AM:

I'll be slamming a BD Player into my PC as soon as they're available.
Actaully I want a Combo BD/DVD/CD Read/Write capable Drive. That's Read/Write for all formats. [Smile]

Could care less for re-writtable. Never use it anyway.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-24-2005, 03:56 AM:

I could care less for rewritable as well, that's why I have it. I actually do care about it, thus it is possible that I could care less than I do now. Now if I couldn't care less about it, then obviously it would mean nothing to me. Go figure.