Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The Laserdisc Appreciation Thread

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 02-06-2005, 09:21 PM:

Recently, I've been on a kick of watching my 12" platters. It just gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling on an age where terms like CLV, CAV, and THX actually meant something. Sure, DVD is cool but there is something more special about the Laserdisc. It's big, it's old, it's REALLY shiny, and the quality still holds up today. I miss the old days, but DVD perhaps may have been a good thing because it made LDs much cheaper to buy. I have two players, and only one is currently working. I'm looking for a new one, and hopefully going more higher end (my current players are both Pioneers: CLD-D406 and the CLD-D504). Anyone else still into the big discs?

AJG

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-06-2005, 09:41 PM:

quote: Aaron Garman
Anyone else still into the big discs?

AJG

Yeppers, buying them cheap off of eBay, and finding gobloads in thrift stores for a buck or two apiece in excellent condition.

The same for my player: a Pioneer CLD-D503 unit that I picked up at a thrift store for 30 bucks with 10 discs included. This player reads both sides of the LD, plus having an inner drawer to do the conventional audio CD's. Unit's in excellent condition-just missing the remote.

Now, anyone doing CED - the RCA's answer to the Laserdisk? ...and the stylus are still available for these CED players.

-Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-06-2005, 10:05 PM:

Yep,

I still support the Laserdisc format...it is better in some ways than DVD but like all pressings...there are good and bad. My favorite player was my CLD-D701 (RIP) which died suddenly . I still have a pair of DVL-700s.

Steve

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-06-2005, 11:02 PM:

My last LaserDisc player was a Pioneer Elite CLD-91. [Cool]

I sold it on eBay a few years ago, along with most of my collection of movies. [Frown]

I've always been partial to Pioneer stuff.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-07-2005, 11:03 AM:

My Aunt Patricia had a couple RCA SelectaVision players and ton of discs. The players died years ago. She recently got rid of all those old discs.

I suppose such discs are more a curiosity for collectors than anything. While the video and sound quality was generally good (at least noticeably better than VHS), most of the movies had panned and scanned transfers. I definitely prefer my DVDs over those things.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 02-07-2005, 11:37 AM:

Still have all of my old LDs, a couple hundred at least. Haven't played most of them in years except for a handful of titles that still haven't been released on DVD. Prize of the collection is one of my first LD purchases--Goodfellas, which Marty, Bob, Joe, and Thelma were happy to sign for me during dailies on Casino.

Player is a Quasar (Maggotbox) LD500 that I bought during a closeout. Still works just fine but I do need to replace the output coupling capacitors. Getting some long-term horizontal clamp streaking in the video nowadays--it's especially noticeable on credit crawls.

These ever faster technology jumps just suck. Think I'll skip the next-generation of hi-def DVDs and wait for the 1-Terabyte HVD (Holographic Versatile Disc) coming in a few short years. [Big Grin]

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-08-2005, 10:11 AM:

I've got the CLD-59 Elite model. Still works great. Here lately I have been watching some of my collection.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 02-08-2005, 01:27 PM:

LaserDiscs are evil. They are the Devil's home video format. They temp you in with great picture and sound, and then they rot! Still have my Pioneer LD-S1 player, but I am trying to repent.

/M.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 02-11-2005, 07:56 PM:

I still have my laser disc players and discs. They still look and sound better than DVD. The sound on a laser disc (AFM) sounds much richer than the sound from a DVD, because of the compression used on DVDs. This was the first thing I noticed when I bought my first DVD player. I played a DVD than I played a LD. There was a very noticeable difference in the quality of the sound. I wasn't even looking for it, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. The video compression on DVDs takes away all the suttle shading differences, and makes everything look cartoonish. I was very sad to see laser disc put to death, and I still wonder if some of the studios had a hand in the very quick demise of LD, because LD never had any sort of copy protection.

BTW, laser rot was a problem with mold getting into the glue used to hold the two halfs of the LD together, growing, and eating the reflective layer. This problem only happened for a short time, before it was taken care of. There is a problem with some of the early CDs that is something like laser rot. The edge of the CD was not sealed, and mold can get into the CD and eat the reflective layer. Check your early CDs, and you may see this happening around the center hole, and the outside edge of the disc. You may want to copy any CDs you see this happening to.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 02-12-2005, 02:22 AM:

Laser rot was also notorious on many titles from Columbia/Tristar...well into the 90s.

Just got me a new player on eBay: the CLD-79 from Pioneer. Hopefully it is all the seller said it was. [Smile]

AJG

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 02-12-2005, 09:21 AM:

Yeah, Sony's US pressing plant was notorious for putting out discs that rotted rather quickly. Out of the around 200 LDs I have, only a couple have rotted. Got lucky I guess.

AFAIK laser rot was not biological in nature; it was simple oxidation of the aluminum layer of the discs. The plastic used in LDs was hygroscopic--it absorbed moisture. This led to warping which could cause the edge seals to fail leaving the aluminum layer exposed to the atmosphere. DVDs and CDs can also suffer edge failures that lead to oxidation, but at least warping won't be the root cause--the plastic used in them isn't hygroscopic.

I won't be getting rid of my LDs anytime soon. Like LPs, properly stored they age well. There's still a few titles on LD that haven't made it to DVD yet.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 02-13-2005, 08:48 AM:

even in the land down under laser still exists. I still have my collection of 100 or so discs and my pioneer player. As stated by many others , the quality does exceed DVD without a doubt. I don't play them much but I am proud to have them stored away with my Betamax tapes and super 8mm films.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 02-16-2005, 01:25 AM:

My CLD-79 showed up and WOW! I didn't know what I was missing all these years on my LDs. Makes me want one of those $2000+ Japanese machines now. This unit really looks great, and I would reccomend it to anyone, especially if you can get a good deal on it. Back to Laserland...

AJG

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-16-2005, 02:22 AM:

quote: David Stambaugh
I've always been partial to Pioneer stuff.

I've been faithful to Pioneer ever since 1976 when I put my first cassette auto-reverse player in my Toyota Corolla with Pioneer speakers. Then afterwards, practically every car that I owned had a Pioneer in it.

I've got two Pioneer reel to reel machines - RT-1050 and a RT-1011L

SuperTuner RULES!

-Monte

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-15-2005, 05:59 PM:

Yeah you bet I am, still have around 87 Laserdiscs NTSC and PAL 11 DTS Laserdiscs and my Top DTS Laserdisc is “Apollo 13 THX Laserdisc”

And I played it last week so its still very active in my THX home cinema….

The Audience is Listening…

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 07-20-2005, 01:13 PM:

I still have 2 LD players but they seldom get used. I transferred many LDs to DVD just to preserve the material in case the players break. I do not agree that LD looks better than DVD. LD was composite and had the evil mixing of the chrominance into the higher frequencies of the luminance, which DVD does not have, unless the source it came from was that way. The chrominance bandwidth was small (0.6 MHz) compared to DVDs done properly (how many TVs can actually decode wideband I, and how many LDs actually had wideband 1.5 MHz I, something that was abandoned long ago in TV receivers anyway for composite decoding?), and you're forgetting no anamorphic encoding to give that extra vertical resolution on letterboxed wisescreen movies. LD also suffered from time-base errors.

Yes, LD was great for its time, but once the studios learned to make good anamorphically-encoded discs with minimal visible compression artifacts, and component cables became the standard way to hook DVD players to TVs (allowing the full color bandwidth of DVD (half the luminance bandwitdh in both the horizontal and vertical directions, but still way higher than 0.6 MHz), and conversion to 480p began being done in the digital domain in the players, DVD became clearly superior.

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-20-2005, 05:37 PM:

You can say the same about 35mm and DLP, trading one artefact for the other…

Get the picture…

Posted by Paul Howard (Member # 1706) on 07-21-2005, 05:30 AM:

Hello All
LaserDisc is always going to have a place in my living room. The huge sleeves were so cool and they were heavy.
The laserdisc that really blew me away the most was The THX DOLDY DIGITAL NTSC Jurassic park, I have nearly EVERY version on DVD, Region 1 DTS & DD, 2 DD, etc None of those versions sound even close to the audio quality on the LD. if anyone has the LD & DVD Compare and be amazed.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-21-2005, 08:19 AM:

I've got about 200 and am looking to get another player, possibly two lest 5, 10 years down the road my player dies (NO ONE can fix these things, not even Pioneer's owned and operated Service Center when it was out in NJ). So you'd better have a spare if you like LDs and want to be able to play your collection.

I am not sure I agree in practice about Evans assesment. In theory you may be right, but I have seen some LD versions that look demonstrably better than the DVD counterpart. CAROUSEL, for example has a very artificial, enhanced look on DVD, while the LDs has more of a "film look." I know it's difficult to explain how this happens other than the variance in the quality of the transfers, but it does happen. And I agree, LD sound can blow DVD away on certain discs. BTW, the DVD of CAROUSEL for some strange reason is letterboxed more extreme than the LD. You are correct in that DVDs move to anamorphic compression is a real advantage. I wish they did it in ALL DVD scope releases. Fact is, anamorphic DVDs are few and far between.

Then there is the pixilation from Hell on DVD. How is it no one goes crazy looking at this abomination? When I bought my first top-of-the-line Pioneer player (DTS, SRD decoding built in), the first disk I poped in was 2001. I couldn't believe what I saw. In ever fade in and fade out (of which there are many in the first 20 minutes), the DVD could not resolve the gray scale necessary to have a smooth fade-to-black or fade-from-black. The second the fade begins, you see millions of blocks of different shades of black, not one smooth fade. WTF?!!!! It is so bad that I assumed it had to be my player so I brought it to a friends house and sure enough, there it was a DVD, possibly even the format itself, which simply didn't have enough resolution to do a smooth fade. I see it now in dozens of other DVDs. Ever watch EYES WIDE SHUT? Take a good look at all the dancing blocks of various shades of black in Tom Cruse's tux. Is this inherent in the DVD format (and if so, is this a case of the emperor has no cloths?) or is is just atrocious, inferior DVD production? And if it is, shouldn't you be able to walk right back into the store and demand your money back or a DVD that doesn't have the defect?

So what's this claim of DVD's 2 BILLION colors it proports to be able to show? Yah, 2 billion colors, but they can only be displayed in big blocks the size you can see sitting 20 feet from the screen. It's so disgusting that I will not play 2001 in my home theatre. I use the LD copy which I purchased as an import from Japan because at the time, our half-wit American decision-makers saw fit to offer ONLY a pan/scan release in the US. So I also had to buy a charater generation so mask off the Japanese subtitles which luckily were below the image (thanks so much, MGM Home Video). BTW, the Japanese artwork and triple sleeve ablum was much more elaborate than the American counterpart. Of course it cost me a fortune, but it was worth it. And this 2001 LD CAN resolve the fades, it HAS no video artifacts in the DVD and like I see in DVDs all the time.

How come I've never heard any complaint about this pixilation crap before? Surely it bothers SOMEONE besides me, no?

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-21-2005, 01:29 PM:

Pixelization bugs the hell out of me, but I've never seen it on major-studio DVDs, only on the cheap public-domain stuff. I would not have bought into the format if every disc had that problem. Strangely the first demo discs in stores looked awful, but watching them at home on my setup they look a lot better. I have the Region 2 Japanese Eyes Wide Shut disc and haven't seen any artifacts on it.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-21-2005, 01:40 PM:

Compression = CRAP. There is a max. data rate on DVD, and when the entire picture changes at once, such as in a fade to black, there is just not enough data bandwidth to encode the change. MPEG2 works using "macro blocks". The picture is dived into blocks, and the pixels in a block are defined as change values within that block. As more compression is needed, the change values within a block are reduced further and further. If there is a lot of motion, or a lot of moving detail, such as in a fade to black, the change values may have to be all reduced to zero within each macro block, so the entire block is just one value (brightness and color). This makes the blocks very visible. Even with variable rate incodeing, there is still a max data rate of 10 Megs. Note that the uncompressed data rate for NTSC video is around 170 Megs.

I know what you are talking about, Evans, but I still say that in over all quality, LD puts DVD to shame. The picture from a DVD looks "less real" due to the effects of compression getting rid of some of the slight changes in color and brightness, in order to make the stuff fit on the disc.

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-21-2005, 01:54 PM:

Did you know the DVD version of “2001: A Space Odyssey” as what I will call a major sound fault, oh yeah the re-mix of it is crap those vulture sound mixers have re-positioned the dialogue panning.

That real pissed me off, as well as “Top Gun” Special edition; there was a right channel dialogue pan that was removed.

“Star Trek the motion picture” directors cut, had some sound effects removed where Captain Kirk knocks his knuckle gentle down on a table, this is on chapter 24 I think, from the English version but not the German version, god dame foreign films….

“Lawrence of Arabia” has got a music bodge where Lawrence walks on-top of the train carriage, oh but the German version for the music sounds ok, check this out….

“Alien” directors cut all the sound mix on this is now starting to really fucking piss me off, we are all consumers, well thank goodness I still have the first edition DVD and the CAV laserdisc…

A&B Alien first edition and the new version directors cut, that’s only fit for clay pigeon shooting.

PULL….

BANG!!!!!

Get the picture, guys….

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 07-21-2005, 02:58 PM:

Frank, I have seen blocking and artifacting on DVDs and agre that some of the discs (especially the early ones from 1997 and 1998) did have terrible compression artifacts. The early Crying Game DVD, and the Hunt for Red October were especially horrible.

A Laserdisc transfer of a high quality source will look better than a DVD transfer from a lousy source, or a DVD with the compression done poorly. However, a properly-done DVD will beat the quality of a Laserdisc easily.

I was used to viewing DVDs on my TV using the same setting used to view other media, and I quickly found that not setting the sharpness properly (having it too high) really makes the compression artifacts stand out, because false edge enhancement is being added to the compression artifacts, which are themselves , false high-frequency ripples. Set the sharpness to the point where it gives a flat frequency response and the artifacts are nowhere nearly as noticeable. As for the blockiness in dark areas, it is noticeable sometimes, but is much more noticeable if the black level on the monitor is turned up too high.

Frank, I've watched tons of DVDs and have never noticed artifacts to the degree you mention. I have a 57-inch rear-projection widescreen (the kind with 3 CRTs), which scales everything up to 1080i or 540p, whichever I choose, and most DVDs look amazing. The black-level is set so that black is black, and I seldom notice the "black and dark gray blockiness".

Laserdisc looks good, but for a widescreen movie, there are only 360 lines being magnified up to the screen height as opposed to 480 for anamorphic DVD. If a DVD is mastered well from a digital source or high-quality film source, an LD cannot touch it in terms of video quality. A letterboxed LD of a movie, when compared to a well-done anamorphic DVD of the same movie, usually looks noticably unsharp and the colors usually seem muted in comparison to the DVD.

HOWEVER, its is very possible that an LD of a TV show that was videotaped using Quadruplex or Type C, or some other "direct color" videotape format could look better than a DVD from the same material, because the DVD would not be able to give more resolution than the source, and the DVD would require separating the luminance and chrominance for encoding, while the LD would encode the original composite signal directly. The DVD would lose half the color information in the vertical direction, while the Laserdisc would not. The DVD would have the 600 KHz color limitation in the horizontal because of the source, just like the LD would. So for TV shows originating on "direct color" videotape formats, an LD with good time-base correction could easily win.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-21-2005, 05:27 PM:

Yes, DVD does have a maximum bit rate. It is 9mbps and that is just for the video alone. You will never see any noticeable artifacting on fades or dissolves when the bit rate is this high. 2001 might be a single layer DVD, and probably runs at 2 to 3mbps for the entire movie. Or is that one of those movies that is like 9 hours long (or just feels like it)? Either way, I'm sure the bit rate is excessively low. I have always hated Stanley Kubrick and I hope that the maggots are enjoying his flesh and that he is burning in hell. Also, if you love bad movies so much that you just had to import it from Japan, there is no need for a generator to mask off the Japanese subtitles. Just use the zoom mode on your widescreen TV and it'll fill the whole thing... that is if it is in flat. It's 2001, so you should just throw it away and maybe even urinate on it for good measure.

I used to be a big LaserDisc fan, but all of the LaserDiscs that I have ever watched have been really noisy. Pisses me off. And in widescreen they look like ass due to the inferior resolution. Plus LaserDiscs are composite by nature! Even Super VHS is better! How lame! If you like dot crawl, poor color bandwidth and things that look like crap, you'll LOVE LaserDisc!

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-21-2005, 07:03 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
It's 2001, so you should just throw it away and maybe even urinate on it for good measure.

I certainly agree with that. That has to be the most boring and stupit film ever made. I have yet been able to stay awake thru the whole thing...including the 1968 70mm opening. Yucky Poo Poo!

quote: Joe Redifer
I have always hated Stanley Kubrick and I hope that the maggots are enjoying his flesh and that he is burning in hell.

Joe, Joe, Joey. WTF are you smokin'? And to think I always respected you... not only as a moderator, a talented artist/animator, and an overall "nice person" but as a wise and smart person as well. I was proud to brag to my friends that I knew *Joe Redifer* and he was my friend.

But, when I see dumbass, stupit, heartless, and un-enlightened comments like the above, it seems like I'll have to re-evaluate my idol and hero criteria.

While Kubrick certainly has had his share of POS films like "2001", "Full Metal Jacket", and "Barry Lyndon", he has had many hits and classics like "Lolita" and "Spartacus" for example.

...AND to mention my 2 favorite "hits": "Eyes Wide Shut" and "A Clockwork Orange".

I'm ***VERY*** disappointed, Joe. Very disappointed.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-21-2005, 11:24 PM:

You're right! I totally forgot to mention how I think his entire family, all of his friends, and anyone who ever associated with him should be eaten alive by red ants!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-22-2005, 03:04 AM:

Yea, "A Clockwork Orange" - "Barry Lyndon" - "dr. Strangelove" and "Spartacus" are definitely classics for sure.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-22-2005, 09:23 AM:

Oh come on guys, bashing 2001? [Eek!]

My first experience of it was in single-lens Super Panavision 70. I also saw it in three strip Cinerama, and yah, I admit I was a very impressionable kid, and yah, someone MAY have passed a joint to me, and granted, I may be a generation or two away from your guys and you may have evaluate what's a great movie a little differently than us older guys do, but even still, how could anyone who claims they love movies NOT be awed by this film? Ah, the perils of the MTV generation where every shot needs to be less than 3 seconds long or you get bored or if something is more compilcated that a linear story-line like LEGALLY BLOND. Even if you measure it against today's CGI stuff, it still beautifully holds its own, and IMHO, it has a "real" quality that none of that computer crap can even hope to come close to. And it is so visually intense -- it is able to convey ideas with nary more than a few pages of dialogue. It is multi-layered; it is both an epic and an extremely personal vision at the same time, something that is rarely acheived. It's totally original and unique -- you don't see it mimic anything that has gone before it. Even a good deal of the technology to put it on the screen was literally invented by Trumbull and Kubrick. There is nothing predictable as it unfolds before you.

2001 is one of those milestone leaps in filmmaking which set a new benchmark that others needed to meet. There wouldn't be a STAR WARS if there wasn't a 2001. It propelled the art to new heights.

Over the years I've run it for at least five engagements (all change-over) probably for a total of 15 times, and I have seen it as a patron at least five. I can tell you, I never tire of it. How can you NOT be awed by the scope of this epic work? Of course if you insist on using fast-pace speed as the measuring rod by which you judge quality, then I admit, 2001 isn't for you, and I leave you to revel in all that is special about THE PUKES OF HAZARD. [Razz]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-22-2005, 10:07 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
I also saw it in three strip Cinerama

2001 was presented in select cities in Cinerama. But it was Super Panavision 70MM, 2001 was never available in three strip Cinerama. It open at the Loews Cinerama (aka Capital) in NYC.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-22-2005, 12:21 PM:

quote: Evans A Criswell
I was used to viewing DVDs on my TV using the same setting used to view other media, and I quickly found that not setting the sharpness properly (having it too high) really makes the compression artifacts stand out, because false edge enhancement is being added to the compression artifacts, which are themselves , false high-frequency ripples. Set the sharpness to the point where it gives a flat frequency response and the artifacts are nowhere nearly as noticeable. As for the blockiness in dark areas, it is noticeable sometimes, but is much more noticeable if the black level on the monitor is turned up too high.

Evans,

Couple of suggestions. First turn the sharpness all the way down and if you havn't already done so order yourself a copy of Digital Video Solutions and follow all the tests for setting up your rear projection set. This is a very good source for setting up televisions and other display devices. It will explain everything from color to black levels to why not to use the sharpness or keep it at a minimum. After I used it I noticed a remarkable differance in improved quality. So if you havn't already go get a copy. In my opinion it's a valuable tool.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-22-2005, 01:50 PM:

True - Doug Trumbull got the award in 1969 for special effects for "2001"

When I saw "2001" for the first time (in 70mm in 1968),it was a lot to grab onto for a kid of 17 yrs old. But after seeing and running this movie more, I then began to accept what the story of this film was about and then appreciated the quality that Kubrick put into this flick.

-Monte

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-22-2005, 06:02 PM:

Joe, S-VHS SUCKS! The only difference between VHS and S-VHS is a slight increase in lumo frequency. response. Nothing was done to improve the croma, which is the worse part of VHS. You want to talk about poor croma res., VHS, and S-VHS down convert the COMPOSITE croma, and then convert it back up again, killing any res. that was there to begin with. The delay incurred in this process is not compensated for properly, so the croma is out of place. If you dub a VHS tape, these problems compound. As for Y/C, the only reason I can see for it is to get people to go out and buy new TVs they did not need. When you add Y and C together you get composite. They are basically the same thing.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-22-2005, 06:14 PM:

S-VHS has superior video quality to LaserDisc with the exception of the normal analog videotape anomalies such as poor tracking, etc. S-video is not the same as composite, it is definitely a step above. This can be seen in videogame systems especially. No dot crawl... none at all, not from a true S-video source anyway. LaserDiscs will dot crawl no matter what since they are composite by nature. With S-VHS, I could videotape a game in either composite or S-video, and the difference was quite pronounced on playback of the S-VHS tape. S-VHS didn't lose much when recording a LaserDisc, either. If you were to record the same games onto a LaserDisc, there would be dot crawl and probably extra noise. It would look inferior to S-VHS because as a video format it is inferior. Now granted videogames have 640 lines whereas S-VHS only has 400 and LaserDisc has only 425 (suck!), but resolution alone does not determine overall video quality.

Blu-Ray is the way to go.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-23-2005, 07:59 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
S-VHS has superior video quality to LaserDisc

quote:
S-VHS only has 400 (lines) and LaserDisc has only 425 (lines)

Isn't that a contradiction? Joe, I think your LD player is broken. If you look at the specs, LD blowes S-VHS away. Better freq response, the croma is direct instead of heterodyned, the croma is coherent, unlike the screwed up mess that comes out of a (S)VHS POS.

I have both LD and S-VHS, and I can tell you that LD is MUCH better than S-VHS.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-23-2005, 09:41 PM:

quote: Bill Gabel
2001 was presented in select cities in Cinerama. But it was Super Panavision 70MM, 2001 was never available in three strip Cinerama. It open at the Loews Cinerama (aka Capital) in NYC.

Bill, I would usually bow to your knowledge against my aging memory, but here I will have to disagree and insist that I saw this in Chicago in what had to be its premiere opening engagement and it definately was three strip, unless those join lines that I know I saw were artificially put in there to trick me. I saw it with buddies from school and it was on a Cinerama strip screen and it definately had the two join lines because they wanted to know what that was all about.

Could it be that they struck a three strip print just for a particular Cinerama house that could not play single lens Super Panavision 70?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-23-2005, 11:22 PM:

You missed the part where I said:

quote: Joe Redifer
but resolution alone does not determine overall video quality.

I have both LD and SVHS as well, and I can't stand LD dot crawl! SVHS does not have dot crawl unless it is included in the source. And even if it was determined that LD was better, I don't think it would "blow SVHS away" by any measure. They both suck ass.

Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 07-24-2005, 02:46 AM:

On 7500-foot reels, Cinerama runs for about 51 minutes at 146.25 feet per minute (6 perfs per frame, 26 fps). This would not get you to the intermission of 2001 which comes 87 minutes into the film.

Besides which, the last three-strip release was How the West Was Won in 1962. What did this alleged non-70mm theater show until 2001 came out in 1968? Surely not revivals of the old travelogues.

Memory has a funny way of playing tricks. Remember all those people who could just swear they saw the Biggs reunion scene from Star Wars prior to the special edition?

[ 07-31-2005, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Tao Yue ]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-24-2005, 03:08 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
join lines that I know I saw were artificially put in there to trick me.

...unless,the "join" lines where the seam lines when they joined the vinyl when making the screen....or....that theatre screen's framework wasn't sprayed flat black before they hung that screen and you were seeing the reflection of the framework through the holes on bright scenes.

Yep, "2001" was shot in 65mm for 70mm release - 3 strip Cinerama died after MGM's "Mutiny on the Bounty" - in 1963, or around about there.

-Monte

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-25-2005, 02:41 AM:

quote: Tao Yue
Memory has a funny way of playing tricks. Remember all those people who could just swear they saw the Biggs reunion scene from Star Wars prior to the special edition?

Alas, Tao, you may be right. Perhaps it was because it was on a striped Cinerama deeply curved screen that I am thinking there were join lines. So yes, memory can be a tricky thing. I have this memory of my first experience as a kid seeing my first CinemaScope film -- THE ROBE at its first run engagement and thinking I saw the Fox logo/CinemaScope frame with the fanfare and extension music, which everyone tells me and I see in all the video releases of this title, was never present on that first CinemaScope film. So I will revise those corrupted memeory cells about three strip 2001. Single lens Cinerama it must have been.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 07-25-2005, 10:57 AM:

quote:
I saw ["2001"] in Chicago in what had to be its premiere opening engagement

While there's no doubt that what you saw was not 3-strip, it is possible, depending on when you attended, that you might have seen the longer cut of the film.

A "2001" article of possible interest.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 07-25-2005, 11:40 PM:

Darryl said

quote: Darryl Spicer

Evans,

Couple of suggestions. First turn the sharpness all the way down and if you havn't already done so order yourself a copy of Digital Video Solutions and follow all the tests for setting up your rear projection set.

I got this disc years ago (1997, probably) and have always used it to calibrate my sets and test sets to see how well they handle different things (they have a chapter of many different test patterns).

That's exactly how I know where my sharpness control should be set, and after being used to looking at a properly setup picture, it is painfully obvious when edge enhancement (oversharpness) is present. Defeating Scan velocity modulation and setting the sharpness control properly is a must to get a decent picture. Not doing so will make compression artifacts on DVDs stand out much more than they should.

Posted by Andy Summers (Member # 3207) on 07-26-2005, 10:01 PM:

Hello there all

T-10, 9,8 ignition sequence start, 7,6,5,4,3,2,1 Houston we have cleared the tower at 13:13….

Apollo 13 is a human story of triumph, referred to as the successful failure, how those three astronauts made it back home over quarter of a million miles one wonders.

So when the cryo-oxygen tanks explode and the words pieced the void of space “Houston we have a problem” the crew knew the spacecraft (Odyssey) was crippled forcing the crew to use the (Aquarius) LEM Lunacommand module crew was to use the LM and forcing the mission to be aborted astronauts (Jim Lovell played be Tom Hanks) (Fred Haise played by Bill Paxton) and (Jack Swigert played by Kevin Bacon)

This film that got a whole lot attention to detail, they even throw in the Kitchen sink for good measure, and this is a trip for those who like the (NASA Space Program) and with yesterday’s return to flight of (STS-114 Discovery) and continuing the mission after 2 ½ years absence God Speed Discovery.

The highly technical visual effects brought life back into the mighty (Saturn V) rocket, which is demonstrated very well and Digital Domain really gave it life and conviction that the level of visual effects are now being pushed to there limits, where the imagination as no boundaries.

Chapter 13 side 1 on the DTS laserdisc is a totally exhilarating high octane of bass and LFE the feel of it I guess sounds right, or more like an earthquake effect at 110dbc weighting SPL at certain parts in this complex mix where the numbers of mutable tracks playing simultaneously in fact thousands.

The Oscar for best achievement in sound was well worth the effort that the sound designers, sound effects editors and the re-reordering mixers put into this film project.

Conclusion the laserdisc is the benchmark for showing the film, with the high DTS bit rate that blows the DVD out of the water for the time, though I have the first DVD edition 2000 technically its not there, in terms of sound while the framing and the imaging is jaw dropping I’m one that is mad for the sound and sound is my pet love so the DTS for this one is the step in the right direction. [thumbsup]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-27-2005, 12:29 AM:

quote:
(yes, “2001: A Space Odyssey” has screened in 70mm format at a drive-in),

...and this movie played at the Park-VU in SLC, Utah that spring/summer of 1969.

That drive-in had one of the biggest screens in the SLC valley. The screen itself was perforated to allow some of the wind to blow through being so big...and it was slightly curved. The yard could amass 600 cars.

Unfortunately, I never saw the booth, but with the booth being on the second level of the building, the light had a straight throw to the screen, no incline whatsoever.

I've heard that they had "AA-2's" up there and each speaker pole had the two speaker arrangement for stereo.

...now all what's there where the Park-VU drive-in was is a huge apartment complex....

..just some good ol' memories of classic drive-in's.

-Monte

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-27-2007, 02:24 AM:

It has been 761 days since the last post.

Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 08-27-2007, 02:24 AM:

So how hard is it to transfer/burn a laserdisc on to a DVD via your computer? 1) I have a Dell 'pooter with DVD burning software (Roxio). 2) I have yet to buy a LD player. I know where I can get one but i have to get off my lazy ass and get it haha.

Am I going to have to buy some uber expenisve software or whatever? Or will this be easier than I think...?

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-27-2007, 09:03 AM:

quote: Allison Parsons
So how hard is it to transfer/burn a laserdisc on to a DVD via your computer? 1) I have a Dell 'pooter with DVD burning software (Roxio). 2) I have yet to buy a LD player. I know where I can get one but i have to get off my lazy ass and get it haha.

Am I going to have to buy some uber expenisve software or whatever? Or will this be easier than I think...?

You will need a video capturing device that you can plug the laser-disc player into. It may be easier to just buy a Stand alone DVD burner and burn it directly to that. You will have to do the same thing either way in regards to the fact that the recording will be done in real time. I have done this on several occasions. I usually find the endpoint of a laser disc side so I will know when to pause the recording to flip the disc. It usually results in a seamless unnoticed edit. One thing you will not have to worry about is copy guard. Laser discs did not have it.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 08-27-2007, 04:17 PM:

The standalone DVD recorder is the least painful method.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-27-2007, 05:32 PM:

..and how I copied a lot of my LD's .. with a DVD recorder (and not worrying about any copy protection nor region nonsense with LD's) - and do agree: far, far less painful than with doing video capture via computer.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-27-2007, 05:55 PM:

I've done this once for a LaserDisc I still own that I thought I would sell. I just recorded the whole thing into my Mac with Final Cut Pro using an extrernal box that converts composite and/or s-video into a DV stream which gets sent to the Mac via firewire. Once that was done I used my x-treme editing abilities and endless talent to make the side change absolutely seemless. [Razz]

Then using my limited knowledge (at the time) of DVD compression I made an M2V and an AC3 file which I imported into DVD Studio Pro and burned a DVD. Easy! These days I'd use a dual layer DVD so I wouldn't have to compress it as much as well as dual-pass variable bit rate encoding. Then I'd make specific chapter marks in DVD Studio Pro as well as specify a good break point for the layer switching. I don't know if stand-alone DVD recorders can burn dual layer discs.

Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 08-27-2007, 06:32 PM:

Ok, I have a stand alone burner and a laserdisc play lined up. Do I still need a video capturing device?

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-27-2007, 06:41 PM:

No the stand alone DVD burner is like a VCR just plug in the video and sound from the Laser-disc player and follow the stand alone recorders directions for recording from another source.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 08-27-2007, 07:08 PM:

Duplicate post!

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 08-27-2007, 07:09 PM:

When putting LDs onto DVD, I set my player so it displays "A--B" on the screen while it's switching sides, and "STOP" at the end of side 2. That way, I can run it through the computer and edit out the player spinning up the disc, changing sides and stopping, but nothing that's on the actual disc. I can't retain any AC3 or DTS tracks, or record both the PCM and analog tracks which would be helpful when there's alternate audio on the analog tracks; I just don't transfer discs that have those. I still prefer to play the actual laserdisc if I have it anyways since the uncompressed PCM sound is better.

Some cool laserdisc stuff I've put online:
Original Image Entertainment opening, followed by short list of available porn titles. Image used the "flying discs" opening on all their titles til 1989, if you freeze it you can see that all the discs are "Debbie Does Dallas". I have a couple G-rated movies that have this opening. The part listing the porno titles was only included on porno movies however.
Later Image opening from 1989 til the end of the format, also found on their first DVDs.

The familiar "turtle side", but in Japanese.

"Wrong Side" message from LDs pressed by Technidisc, the worst laserdisc manufacturer though this one is quite good.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-27-2007, 10:15 PM:

If you really want to have fun, convert the video back into a 24p native format before you encode the MPEG2. No interlacing artifacts!

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-29-2007, 12:29 PM:

And add an anamorphic squeeze - just for good measure.

With DVD studio, you could pretty easily make a second audio track for the commentary - once you capture it, of course. Laser disks were also good at producing any subtitles below the frame on part of the letterboxing. Of course if you zoom in on the image with your widescreen TV, you potentially lose part of the subtitle area (unless you adjust the picture all the way up on your TV - which is a pain). With Final Cut & DVD Studio, you could matte that area out and add your own new subtitle track, up on the picture to solve that problem - if you so desired.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 08-29-2007, 12:39 PM:

I suppose I just don't understand the reason for transferring the LD's to DVD. I mean if you're talking about a couple of discs that you've got and you're going to dump the entire format, that is one thing - but frankly I can't stand watching DVD for it's compression artifacts. And the time and effort it would take to transfer my library to DVD would be ... well too long.

Posted by Allison Parsons (Member # 2728) on 08-30-2007, 08:02 PM:

Thank you everyone for you help. As we speak I'm burning the BBC series The Tripods (season 1) on DVD via external burner. I'm actually amazed on how easy it is. Ahh, the wonders of technology. [Smile]

One down, about 8 more to go....

Posted by Oliver Harper (Member # 4245) on 11-03-2007, 04:34 AM:

I love LaserDisc, i have a Pioneer Elite CLD-99. Awesome player with a great picutre..I still love watching LD. THe sound is incredible, lovely PCM tracks and uncompressed DTS tracks cant be beaten.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-03-2007, 04:43 AM:

Yeah. Too bad uncompressed DTS hasn't yet been offered to the consumer.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 11-03-2007, 09:25 AM:

They never majorly took off in this country, and i'm pretty sure were never released at all in this state. The player I had to settle with was a one side playing model that they used to demo tv's with back in the day when LD was the best quality consumer format. I had to bring home all my LD's from a trip to Sydney, my suitcase was 8Kg's going over and 30 coming back. [Smile]

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 11-03-2007, 01:58 PM:

quote: Oliver Harper
I love LaserDisc, i have a Pioneer Elite CLD-99. Awesome player with a great picutre..I still love watching LD. THe sound is incredible, lovely PCM tracks and uncompressed DTS tracks cant be beaten.

quote: Joe Redifer
Yeah. Too bad uncompressed DTS hasn't yet been offered to the consumer.

An unfortunate choice of words. By "uncompressed", Oliver should have said "Full Bitrate". The LaserDisc had the capacity of 1440kb/s bitrate on the DTS track. A handful of DVDs used that rate, but most used the half-rate 720kb/s speed.

I'm proud to say I have every single DTS LaserDisc title released (in NTSC format) in my collection - including a Promo edition of "Apollo 13".

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 12-07-2007, 07:22 AM:

As a die Hard laser fan from years ago I have always thought the sound and picture quality to be unsurpassed.

I have not run a laser at home for quite some time. Recently I bought a new Panasonic Plasma panel curious as to how Laser would look on it , i ran "Paint Your Wagon" for the Kids , a movie icon from my childhood days , it came up terrible , the sound was ok but picture was terrible. previously I had run it on my old Sony 26" CTV it looked good. I guess laser has not got the resolution to fill large screen TV's. Quite disappointing considering I have 127 Movies on LD in my archives.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-07-2007, 10:06 AM:

Improved audio quality is arguably an unsung plus on new HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs. Most people just talk about the improved image quality and say little to nothing about the audio formats.

Standard DVD made some trade offs against audio quality compared to that of Laserdisc (DTS at half the "full" rate, stereo tracks not LPCM but 192k DD 2.0, etc.). Dolby Digital 5.1 at 448kb/s versus 384kb/s on Laserdisc was one of the few improvements.

The new HD disc formats can hold higher bit rate audio formats like uncompressed LPCM 5.1, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD Master. Standard DTS tracks can be stored at the "full" 1509kb/s rate. DTS-HD Master is backward compatible with existing DTS decoders by delivering a full bit rate standard DTS "core" to those systems.

Those new audio formats can also accommodate discrete 7.1 channel mixes -although it's a bit unclear on how the extra channels would be assigned. I kind of doubt the "five up front" scheme would be used since very few people have televisions remotely big enough for the audio channel separation. Two discrete side wall surround channels and two discrete back wall surround channels would be more logical. That's how most people are wiring existing 8 speaker home systems.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 12-07-2007, 12:16 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Dolby Digital 5.1 at 448kb/s versus 384kb/s on Laserdisc was one of the few improvements.

It was an improvement over LaserDisc if the studio chose to support it. All of Warner Bros. 5.1 Dolby Digital is at the same 384kb/s rate. What further irritated me about Warner is thier annoying habit of encoding mono programs as "Center Only" 1.0 mixes at 96kb/s.

I wonder what Warner is doing on their Blu-Ray/HD-DVD mono films. I've got "The Omega Man" here on Blu-Ray, but haven't watched it yet. The packaing claims it is Dolby Digital 1.0 Mono. Here's hoping the audio is something higher than 96kb/s.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 01-29-2008, 04:34 PM:

It just crossed my mind that this year marks the (would be) 30th anniversary of the LaserDisc format.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-29-2008, 04:45 PM:

You know what? I doubt DVD will last as long as LaserDisc did.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-29-2008, 06:54 PM:

Standard definition DVD doesn't have very many years of life ahead of it.

We may see stores discontinuing sales of movies in standard DVD-V format in as little as 5 years. By then, anyone who watches TV will very likely have a TV capable of displaying native 1080p content. Lots of people will have replaced older digital TVs with newer ones. Some may be going through their 3rd or 4th HDTV set.

Upconverted DVDs look OK, on a 1080p monitor. But they don't look great. They're not not "high def" quality either. Some customers will put up with the lower picture quality for a longer time than others, but within 5 years most will be playing their movie discs from a Blu-Ray player.

Standard DVD, in the form of recordable data discs, may hang on for a few years past the point when movie studios stop distributing pre-recorded movies in that format.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-29-2008, 07:08 PM:

Yea, remember seeing my first LD players (early Pioneers were the disc were top loaded into the unit) and the playback (obvious the sound) quality that the LD's had - little bit better than VHS.

Then, RCA had to jump on the marketwagon with their CED units in trying to make a dent in the LD market...and hung in there pretty well too until the red ink was too deep to swim in.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 01-31-2008, 05:10 PM:

If you have Divx playback on your computer, go to Stage6.com and search for "Laserdisc" and you can see Pioneer's 1980 demo disc "Laserdisc: What It Is and How It Works", and their 1984 demo disc featuring Devo. I've also got the 1981 "Bring The Magic Home" CED demo disc and a bunch of other goodies.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 01-31-2008, 05:23 PM:

I recently discovered that those $10 frames they make for LP covers are also the perfect size for LD covers. My entire house is now decorated with the Criterion Collection.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 02-05-2008, 10:48 PM:

Funny that I havent seen this topic before now.

Today, I received a Pioneer CLD-1070 player and 95 movies/cartoons.

Cleaned it up--- hasn't been used in several years.

Inserted a disc, machine pulls it inside and the disc drops into place on the spindle. After that, nothing. It serches for a CD/LD type for a few seconds, then the time display comes on all zeros. Also, the disc never moves.

How does this unit know theres a disc on the spindle? Spindle motor spins easily. Laser hunts around for a few seconds. Any clue as to where I should start on this? I want to see about 80 of these movies!

Bruce

UPDATE: It's working. It had some crud on the laser lens.

[ 02-06-2008, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Bruce McGee ]

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 02-07-2008, 05:54 PM:

Usually, on just about any optical disc player, the player will try to aquire the disc (focus the laser on the dic) before spinning up the disc. It is easier to aquire the disc with it standing still. Some players will give the disc a little kick, if the laser cannot see the disc afer trying for a few seconds.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-07-2008, 06:23 PM:

That is why DVDs won't spin up when inserted into CD players. Laser can't really "see" it.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 02-11-2008, 01:30 PM:

I've been watching alot of stuff the last few days on the LD.

Its funny watching older films like BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI. It's a pan and scan version using a print that had seen better days, but was complete. I got to see lots of damage at reel changes... things I rarely see on DVD releases these days.

Some of the films I have watched were obviously transferred from 1" tape. I can see tape dropouts galore on the beginnings of some of the films, particularly some Paramount titles that had the multi-colored duplication warnings on the beginning of the disc.

We've come a long way, but still, these players look awfully good. I'm looking for discs now... like the 97 that I have arent enough.

Bruce

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 05-31-2008, 12:54 PM:

My friend wanted to watch an LD for his birthday, so I dusted off my old player and hooked it up yesterday. Hearing the motors and gears and stuff when I turned it was a very nostalgic feeling. I was shocked by how terrible the picture looked, considering how awesome we all thought it was back in the day.

That being said, I'll never be as excited about buying or watching a BD as I was whenever I bought a new LD. And that makes me kind of sad.

Also, the actual physical LD's are the coolest form of video media in history. There's just something about that big silver platter.

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 06-03-2008, 12:50 PM:

My brother used to run the second biggest video store in the Los Angeles When they closed he inherited the laser disc catalog. He has over 1200 titles and yes they sure are fun to watch. Some stuff
I doubt will ever be released on any other format, just prey they don't rot.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 06-06-2008, 03:43 PM:

When I put a laserdisc in these days, I'm amazed by how "bad" the picture looks as well. But, that's what many years of watching anamorphic DVDs without the cross-chrominance and cross-luminance interference, time-base error, and lower-bandwidth color will do to us. A laserdisc will look, at best, as good as a clear TV broadcast on an analog SDTV channel, on most equipment.

Back in the days of VHS, it looked quite a bit better than VHS, but those quality levels have been long surpassed by DVD and HD.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 06-06-2008, 10:57 PM:

I was also amazed how bad the picture looked, until I switched back to CRT, and it got a lot better. I supposed that LaserDisc was designed to be awesome on the best display available at the time, which was a normal TV set I guess. I then got tired of all this so I started dubbing 78's onto 8-Tracks

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 06-28-2008, 03:59 PM:

The hardest part of having a laserdisc collection is (ugh) moving day.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-29-2008, 04:32 PM:

Look on the bright side. For someone who has a large collection of shellac 78s, moving day is infinitely worse!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-29-2008, 11:27 PM:

quote:
For someone who has a large collection of shellac 78s, moving day is infinitely worse!

...dang, aint that the blessed truth there! A 6 inch stack of vinyl LP's is nothing compared to the same stack of 12inch shellacs. (and we'll leave the 1/4" Edisons out of this comparison).

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2008, 11:47 PM:

My shellacs have tended to be of the 10" variety.

Steve

Posted by Laurie Higgins (Member # 4843) on 06-30-2008, 04:37 PM:

We still have most of our LDs and our player. When ever something comes out on DVD that we have on LD we buy it and try to unload the LD. That being said, a ton of the stuff we have still hasn't and probably won't come out on DVD.

Yes, when I put on a LD I do think that the picture quality isn't as good as DVD. I used to think that LDs looked GREAT. I was watching something on VHS at my parent's house not to long ago and the quality was HORRIBLE. So I'm sure some day down the road Blue Ray will look like utter crap to us. [Smile]

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-11-2010, 04:11 AM:

It has been 771 days since the last post.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 08-11-2010, 04:11 AM:

Well. Not sure if anyone can beat my collection.

I have 750 laserdiscs and 5 Pioneer player. I also have 650 dvds. As for blu-ray, I have 6

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 08-31-2010, 12:55 PM:

3319 LaserDiscs
25 LD Players
567 DVDs
8 HD-DVDs
389 BDs
1 UMD
19 CEDs
8 VHDs

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 08-31-2010, 05:42 PM:

What are some LD's that have cool stuff not on the DVD's or Blu Rays? One thing I remember is on the Frighteners boxset, there was a 4 hour making of documentary. I'd like to find this again sometime.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-31-2010, 05:56 PM:

Well, some LDs supposedly have the theatrical 5.1 sound mixes whereas their DVD counterparts have been remixed and/or re-EQ'd for home theaters. I have no proof of this nor examples, just helping spread the rumor.

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 08-31-2010, 08:54 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Well, some LDs supposedly have the theatrical 5.1 sound mixes

For the most part, any of the DTS LDs generally had the theatrical mix. God, I remember the bitching an moaning from the Dolby crowd about how DTS only sounded better because it was louder, blah, blah. This got turned up when discs began to be released in both DD and DTS versions. The DTS disc was invariably louder. It turned out that the stems being given to DTS were the theatrical versions, while the Dolby versions had been re-leveled or something like that. I never understood the absolute witchhunt the DD guys were on. Just freakin' turn down the volume when you play a DTS disc. Jeesh.

Interestingly, several studios actually used the SDDS mixes for their DTS LD releases, and you could derive the matrixed extra channels from the discrete DTS tracks.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-31-2010, 09:59 PM:

On LD...the Star Wars trilogy...these are the versions before Lucas' vision got blurred with old age. Han shot first, after all and was damn proud of it.

Anyone else have a Pioneer VP1000(A)? How about the CLD-900 (first combo LD/CD), DVL-700 (first LD/DVD/CD)

For what its worth...I just recently played several of my LDs...including A League of Their Own. My wife didn't even realize I was running an LD until the A->B side change came up an hour in.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-31-2010, 10:31 PM:

Here's everything LaserDisc that I own:

HARDWARE:

Pioneer DVL-700 LaserDisc/DVD Player - Switches sides automatically, plays DVDs, has optical, coaxial and RF (for AC-3) out. It seems to get confused sometimes when it switches back from side two and hangs.

Kenwood AC-3 RF Demodulator DEM-999D - This converts the wimpy LaserDisc RF Dolby Digital into something useful, like real Dolby Digital code (SPDIF), the same output by DVD players. This is required to listen to LaserDiscs in Dolby Digital on any receiver built after 1998 most likely.

LASERDISC SOFTWARE:
Many LDs I have are DTS. It is easier to play DTS LDs than Dolby Digital LDs. Any receiver made after the year 2000 or so most likely has a DTS input. Just connect the "digital out" of ANY LaserDisc player to the reciever and you'll get full LD DTS sound. Note that I will not use the term "widescreen" here since LaserDiscs are not anamorphic. Instead I will state "Letterbox" or not.

Raiders of the Lost Ark - Stereo - Letterbox

Star Wars Trilogy: Special Edition - Episodes IV, V, & VI. Dolby Digital, THX, letterbox, no Hayden Christensen in Return of the Jedi, etc (these are the theatrical Special Edition releases). Includes bonus disc. Complete with box and all that good stuff. Greedo shoots first, the way George Lucas always intended. [Roll Eyes]

True Lies - DTS - Letterbox - Tom Arnold included in package.

The Nightmare Before Christmas - DTS - Letterbox

Speed - Dolby Digital - Letterbox

Tiny Toon Adventures: How I spent My Vacation - Side 2 = CAV - The audience is now deaf

Titanic - DTS - Letterbox - Includes outer plastic jacket that goes over the regular cardboard jacket.

Gate to the Mind's Eye - DTS - CAV - Endorsed by Thomas Dolby who invented Dolby Digital.

Crimson Tide - Dolby Digital - Letterbox

Saving Private Ryan - Dolby Digital - Letterbox - Very loud.

Super Speedway (IMAX) - DTS - Smells like Paul Newman.

Jackie Chan's First Strike - Dolby Digital - Letterbox

Toy Story - DTS - Letterbox

Aladdin - CAV - Letterbox - Stereo

Seven - DTS - Letterbox

Braveheart - Special anti semite edition - Dolby Digital - Letterbox - Includes outer plastic jacket that goes over the regular cardboard jacket.

Jurassic Park - DTS - Letterbox - Features world-famous Jeff Goldblum.

Beauty and the Beast - CAV - Letterbox - Stereo

SuperCop - Dolby Digital - Letterbox - Jackie Chan

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-01-2010, 12:11 AM:

quote: Mike Heenan
What are some LD's that have cool stuff not on the DVD's or Blu Rays?

I heard tell of a LD set that covered all (or most) of the Looney Tunes Road Runner cartoons. But I never saw it in real life so don't know if it really existed or not.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-01-2010, 12:40 AM:

I have a couple of LD's of the Road Runner series ... I have seen these sets in stores back in the '90's.

-Monte

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 09-01-2010, 03:13 AM:

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 09-01-2010, 10:32 AM:

Here ya go Mike:

Looney Tunes on LD

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 4784) on 09-01-2010, 02:39 PM:

My DVDL700 died a few years ago. I purchased a pair of simpler Pioneer players at a flea market (3315 & 5310) and they run perfectly.
I still have 500 titles on LD. I just love the way they sound.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-01-2010, 03:32 PM:

My Pioneer DVL-700 died once a few years back, but I was able to fix it myself with my extreme technical knowledge. Back in my LD collecting days I would buy issues of Widescreen Review starring Michael Coate. Oddly, once I started collecting mainly DVDs, I stopped buying the magazine. It was invaluable for the LaserDisc owner, though.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 09-02-2010, 02:10 PM:

Looney Tunes DVD and Video Guide

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 09-03-2010, 12:25 PM:

quote: Mike Heenan
I remember is on the Frighteners boxset, there was a 4 hour making of documentary

The 4 hour documentary was issued on DVD in 2005 with the "Peter Jackson's Director's Cut" of Frighteners. If I recall, it's on a DVD-18 disc.

I currently own the following players:
Pioneer VP-1000 (x3)
Pioneer PR-7820 (x5)
Pioneer DVL-919 (x2 - 1 US, 1 Japan)
Pioneer DVL-919E (x2 - European Version with NTSC & PAL)
Pioneer LD-W1 (x2)
Pioneer CLD-3030
Pioneer LD-660 (in a black case!)
Pioneer LD-1100
Pioneer PR-8210
Pioneer LD-V8000 (x2)
Pioneer LD-V1000 (x2)
Magnavox VH-8020 (Rebadged LD-1100)
Sylvania VP-7200 (Rebadged LD-1100)
Pioneer CLD-3070

Collection includes every DTS LD released in the US and Japan, plus a pre-release copy of "Apollo 13"

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 09-03-2010, 01:07 PM:

My first player was a CLD-990. I later upgraded to a DVL-919 which I had for a long time. I sold that when someone gave me a DVL-700 which I still have. I know the 919 was a higher end machine, but I needed funds at the time.

At it's largest, I think I had about 200 titles which included an unopened copy of the Best of Roger Rabbit CAV and the T-2 box set with the silver logo. I didn't have many DTS titles, but I did have a DTS Mr. Holland's Opus that sounded pretty nice.

About 2 years ago, I finally realized the collection was largely gathering dust and i had replaced most of my collection with DVD versions, so I sold all but about 10 titles to a local used record and video store for 5 cents each. Pretty sad.

Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 09-05-2010, 01:12 PM:

Does anyone know of some "holy grail" type movies on Laserdisc?

Here's an example:
Last year for a film festival that we hosted we showed an out-of-print, director's cut of TEXASVILLE that had only been released on LD. Peter Bogdanovich was there, and of course it looked awful on our 2K, but unfortunately this was the only way to see this cut of the film which has about 30 minutes of extra footage.

Any other LD only cuts of films or films out there?

Posted by Vern Dias (Member # 5241) on 09-05-2010, 10:42 PM:

I Believe "Lost Horizon" (the 1973 musical version) only exists in a partially restored road show presentation on LD. Apparently, some of the negatives from the cuts performed by Columbia were lost, so the LD is a not quite complete restoration of the original road show version.

Vern

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 09-06-2010, 12:43 AM:

I believe I was the very first consumer in Hawaii to buy a Pioneer DVL 700 combo Laserdisc/DVD player and derived years of enjoyment from it playing both laserdiscs and DVDs but when I bought a Denon DVD player that had the capability of playing SACD cds, I stopped using the Pioneer unit and disconnected it about three years and no loner watch laserdiscs. I still have my entire collection of LDs including a tremendous amount of box sets that cost me a pretty penney at the time including the Special STAR WARS set that cost an obscene amount of $250.00. I also have about 48 DTS titles including TOY STORY 1, JURASSIC PARK, WEST SIDE STORY, EVITA, INDEPENDENCE DAY, SHINDLER'S LIST, TITANIC, and many other popular titles including a couple of Disney titles such as POCAHONTAS. After I bought a Blu Ray player about a year and a half ago, even the Denon player is no longer used

By the way, almostll of my laserdiscs are in brand new condition with no fingerprints and scratches so if anyone still collects them and want to know what I have, please contact me privately.

-Claude

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-09-2010, 12:26 AM:

Just realized I started this thread way back when. Since then, I've upgraded to a CLD-79, which I hook up to an iScanHD to scale it to 1080p. Results are pretty remarkable.

I have 74 titles...many in AC3, some in DTS. My prized titles:

Jurassic Park DTS
Star Wars (Faces and the Special Edition Box Set)
RoboCop Criterion CAV
Halloween Criterion
Phantom Menace (Japanese release)

and of course...

THX WOW

AJG

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-09-2010, 01:52 AM:

What is "faces"?

I don't think I could be proud of any release of Phantom Menace, unless is was just a CD-sized "pod race only" release.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 09-09-2010, 03:38 AM:

I also had the THX WOW disc but sold it for a good price when laserdiscs were still in demand. I wonder how much it is worth now?

-Claude

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-09-2010, 11:34 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
What is "faces"?

"Faces" were the CLV THX versions of the Original Trilogy. The name comes from the fact that each jacket had a "face" on them: Darth Vader for Star Wars, a Storm Trooper for Empire, and Yoda for Jedi. They are essentially the same as the discs in the definitive collection box set, except they are CLV. They were also not prone to some of the mastering problems some of those box sets had. I remember paying $1 for each of them when I joined the Columbia House LaserDisc club.

I have to admit, the Phantom Menace is a guilty pleasure...especially the sound mix. The LaserDisc is also the only release that is both 5.1 and the theatrical version of the film: the DVD had some added bits.

Kinda wild...I started collecting LaserDiscs when I was about 15 years old. I probably would have had a larger collection had I, I dunno, had a real job. Even my player was pretty low end: the CLD-S104.

AJG

Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 09-10-2010, 01:51 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
I don't think I could be proud of any release of Phantom Menace, unless is was just a CD-sized "pod race only" release.

Yep that was called Star Wars Episode I: Racer and it was awesome

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 09-13-2010, 02:48 PM:

I have just one laserdisc: The THX WOW! disc. It's now framed and hanging on the wall leading to my home theater, as I do not have an LD player.

If we lived in a perfect world, that disc would be re-released on Blu-ray, and all of the THX trailers since the dawn of time would be on it as well. Throw in all of the Dolby Digital and DTS trailers, and you'd hear my excited voice! But, alas, we live in the world of licensing issues, and the world where Han never gets the first shot again...

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 10-01-2010, 01:56 PM:

Someday, I'll have to post a list of the stuff I've got on LD that STILL hasn't been reissued on DVD.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 10-13-2010, 02:26 AM:

quote: Aaron Garman
I have to admit, the Phantom Menace is a guilty pleasure...especially the sound mix. The LaserDisc is also the only release that is both 5.1 and the theatrical version of the film: the DVD had some added bits.

That Phantom Menace disc you have should be Dolby 6.1 I think on;y six titles of 6.1 were ever made.

quote: David E. Nedrow
For the most part, any of the DTS LDs generally had the theatrical mix. God, I remember the bitching an moaning from the Dolby crowd about how DTS only sounded better because it was louder, blah, blah. This got turned up when discs began to be released in both DD and DTS versions. The DTS disc was invariably louder. It turned out that the stems being given to DTS were the theatrical versions, while the Dolby versions had been re-leveled or something like that. I never understood the absolute witchhunt the DD guys were on. Just freakin' turn down the volume when you play a DTS disc. Jeesh.

Interestingly, several studios actually used the SDDS mixes for their DTS LD releases, and you could derive the matrixed extra channels from the discrete DTS tracks.

I have never ever liked DTS in theatre or at home. I have always found Dolby to be fuller and deeper than DTS which always seemed out of control. For the price, DTS is just not worth it on laserdisc as the discs were always so expensive.

The DD soundtracks should be the theatrical mixes...not sure where you learned that they weren't

quote:
nterestingly, several studios actually used the SDDS mixes for their DTS LD releases, and you could derive the matrixed extra channels from the discrete DTS tracks.

The Dolby Digital version of Jurassic Park had to of used the DTS 6 track mix. Univeral were DTS exclusive for a while back.

quote: David E. Nedrow
several studios actually used the SDDS

Again, where did you get this info?...this seems wrong. Plus most DTS laserdiscs were Universal. Some were Disney, some were Fox, some were independent and a few were Paramount.

To my knowledge, SONY never released a single DTS or DD laserdisc, it would make no sense for DTS to use the SDDS mix

There were only a handful of laserdiscs that were released that did not have a theatrical DTS release. Die Hard 1 and 2, Born on the 4th of July, were a few.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-13-2010, 02:45 AM:

I know on DVDs from Disney that have both a Dolby Digital and DTS audio track, the Dolby Digital sounds much better (Pirates from the Carribean is a great example). The DTS sounds very harsh and yes, too loud in comparison. Many people think the extra volume = better quality and therefore Dolby Digital is inferior to DTS. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I've taken the same 6-track uncompressed mix that I made myself and compressed them into full bitrate Dolby Digital and DTS streams and I'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the two. In fact, the DTS encode had a very subtle "tick" in one part that didn't exist in the Dolby Digital or the original. But the thing that truly sucks anus about Dolby Digital is all of the midnight modes and whatever else they call it to compress the dynamic range. It is near impossible to shut that shit off. Dolby should be ashamed of themselves for this nonsense. But again, I'm sure that I am repeating myself.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 10-13-2010, 02:56 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
But the thing that truly sucks anus about Dolby Digital is all of the midnight modes and whatever else they call it to compress the dynamic range. It is near impossible to shut that shit off. Dolby should be ashamed of themselves for this nonsense. But again, I'm sure that I am repeating myself.

You should be able to just turn off midnight mode.

The best ever Dolby Digital Laserdisc I have ever watched was "The English Patient"...I think part of that had to do with films award winning sound/engineers but on LD it is pretty impressive. Titanic is good as well.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-13-2010, 03:31 AM:

I can't disable dialog normalization on the receiver. It's up to the person who encodes it to do it correctly, which few do.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 10-13-2010, 10:10 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
I can't disable dialog normalization on the receiver. It's up to the person who encodes it to do it correctly, which few do.

There is no issue with it, that is the way it was designed to work.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-13-2010, 03:42 PM:

Yeah, like I said, it's a shitty design.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-14-2010, 02:08 AM:

What is "midnight modes?" Never heard that expression.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-14-2010, 02:18 AM:

It's a technique that flattens the dynamic range so you can listen to movies at a lower volume without having to worry about loud, scary sounds when something explodes, etc. With Dolby Digital, it works very poorly. You can hear the ramping up and down of the volume and it is never quick enough to catch the first part of a loud sound. The only way I have found to combat this is to put the dialog normalization at exactly -31dbFS during the encode. Some DVD players do not allow you to turn this mode off (especially those software players used on computers) so you had better damn well encode this correctly in the first place.

Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 10-14-2010, 08:58 PM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
I also had the THX WOW disc but sold it for a good price when laserdiscs were still in demand. I wonder how much it is worth now?

-Claude

I looked on ebay and saw a completed auction for a THX WOW disc sold for $23.27 after 5 bids.

quote: Geena Phillips
Someday, I'll have to post a list of the stuff I've got on LD that STILL hasn't been reissued on DVD.

I'll start you off with one from my collection: "Streetwise" 1984. Martin Bell and Mary Ellen Mark's documentary of runaway and homeless teenagers living on the streets of downtown Seattle, WA