Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: HiDef DVD is price prohibitive? (and other surprising facts)

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-16-2006, 07:51 PM:

THis is from the IMDB Studio Briefing. Link

Video Distributor Says Hi-Def DVD Format Is "Price Prohibitive"

Image Entertainment, which distributes classic movies on home video, is likely to hold off releasing such films on high-definition DVDs. Martin Greenwald, the company's president and CEO, told an investors conference in Las Vegas that the cost of mastering high-definition discs is currently price prohibitive for companies like his. As reported by Home Media Retailing magazine, Greenwald said that at a meeting with Sony execs in Japan about Sony's Blu-ray format, he learned that mastering costs would be $40,000 per movie versus $2,000 for a standard DVD. Each disc would cost $2.00, twice as much as a conventional DVD. "We have to wait until that price point comes down to a level that actually works for us," Greenwald remarked.

(end article)

So from this we learn that it only costs $2000 to master a conventional DVD, and a paltry ONE DOLLAR for each disk, when they sell for around $20 each. If this is true, I wonder why there isn't full-scale bitch-fest like the one that's constantly plaguing the music industry about CD prices.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-16-2006, 08:50 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
costs $2000 to master a conventional DVD

Maybe, if there are NO extras, no frills at all, and you don't care about the transfer quality.

quote: Mike Blakesley
a paltry ONE DOLLAR for each disk, when they sell for around $20 each

And movie theaters "make" $3.75 on each $4.00 tub of popcorn they sell. [Wink]

The mfg. cost of the stamped media, when produced in high volume, is very low. Now add in the packaging, marketing, royalties, and probably 3 levels of markup (manufacturer ==> distributor ==> retailer ==> consumer), and you easily have a $20 retail price. When I worked for a personal computer manufacturer, the rule of thumb was the retail price had to be a minimum of 3 times the "burdened" cost of manufacturing the product, or it would end up unprofitable.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-16-2006, 09:31 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
So from this we learn that it only costs $2000 to master a conventional DVD, and a paltry ONE DOLLAR for each disk, when they sell for around $20 each.

Gee, You ACTUALLY buy DVD's on release? I wait and get them at the Smith's checkout stand when they are a year old and they have to blow them out for just $7.99 [Big Grin]

.

Mark

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-16-2006, 11:34 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
If this is true, I wonder why there isn't full-scale bitch-fest like the one that's constantly plaguing the music industry about CD prices.

1. You get a lot more for your money with DVD Videos than music CD.

2. For some odd reason, prices on music CDs hardly drop. As Mark stated, DVD prices fall. After about six months or so, a $20 disc will fall to $14. In another few months you'll have it for under $10. A little later you might find it for $7.50 or even $5. Old music CDs never seem to do that.

For instance, I bought two CDs a couple weekends ago. One was the new CD from The Strokes, the other was a Foo Fighters CD I was replacing (the Color and Shape). That freakin' album was released 9 years ago yet I paid just as much for it as that new Strokes album. The music purchase cost me $33 at Best Buy. I could have snagged two new release DVDs for the same money.

Back to the HD-disc thing.

High mastering costs are one issue. Consumers being extremely turned off by restrictive hardware functions is another issue.

I know some in this forum have heard the news this week about the Playstation 3 launch being pushed back to November -mainly because of Blu-Ray issues. Other experts point to high component costs, stating a PS3 unit could cost Sony more in parts prices than Apple has to spend to build an iMac. Wow.

Hollywood studios are now apparently having some second thoughts about the functions of AACS and restrictions of HD-quality signals passing only through HDCP-compliant DVI and HDMI connectors. Fox has come and stated it doesn't want to support that feature on their Blu-Ray releases. Other studios are voicing concerns about it as well. The studios have not said why they are concerned. But perhaps it could be from market research showing there is a LOT of HDTV sets in the marketplace lacking HDCP compliant digital connections. That may equal a LOT of customers sticking with regular DVD instead of upgrading. Warner Home Video is the only studio holding strongly to the view of restricting HD quality video signals only to HDCP protected digital connections.

Meanwhile, lots of HDMI-equipped HDTV sets have no ability to receive a 1080p quality signal from a HD-disc player or Playstation 3.

There's lots of good reasons to sit on the fence regarding HDTV for at least the next several months to maybe a year or more until all these business people can get their shit together.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-16-2006, 11:52 PM:

Sony has said that their crappy movies (I don't think they make good ones unless you consider Species great stuff) will offer full resolution over analog component connections. So hopefully this means that studios and companies are taking notice of what people will not let them get away with. Now they just need to get rid of that "required to be hooked up to the internet" thing. NOBODY IN THE WORLD can defend that "feature".

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 03-17-2006, 12:18 AM:

I could be wrong about this, but I think the increased production cost only applies to Blu-ray. I thought that one of the reasons why the HD DVD guys picked AOD over Blu-ray was because they could use the same equipment as DVDs to manufacture them.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-17-2006, 02:54 AM:

Actually guys (and especially Bobby) I was being sarcastic. I'm in the music business at my day job. I sell DVDs sometimes. I know about the promotion, markup, etc. I'm just wondering why there isn't a huge gang of uninformed consumers griping about DVD prices when THE DISKS ONLY COST A DOLLAR TO MAKE. That isn't a true statement any more than the "fact" that you always hear bandied about that it only costs 50¢ to make a CD.

Incidentally Bobby, your big mistake was shopping at Best Buy. If you want to save money, look at half.com or eBay or GEMM.com or any Costco. CDs drop in price too, in fact I just sold the latest Santana snooze-fest on Ebay last week new in the wrapper for $6.31 and it's only a few months old.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-17-2006, 03:30 PM:

Mike, I didn't know you were being sarcastic. I'm probably numbed from the same statements made ad nauseum from the RIAA.

quote: Mike Blakesley
If you want to save money, look at half.com or eBay or GEMM.com or any Costco. CDs drop in price too, in fact I just sold the latest Santana snooze-fest on Ebay last week new in the wrapper for $6.31 and it's only a few months old.

Fundamentally one should not have to search through the Internet to find discounted music titles. I think the music industry would indeed sell more product if they offered some tiered discounts at mainstream retailers. About the only way one can find a discounted CD title at a retail store is through buying it used.

quote: Mike Schindler
I could be wrong about this, but I think the increased production cost only applies to Blu-ray. I thought that one of the reasons why the HD DVD guys picked AOD over Blu-ray was because they could use the same equipment as DVDs to manufacture them.

The situation isn't quite that simple.

Some of the same glass and stamper components can be used, but at least some new hardware will be required for either format. Blu-Ray necessitates a completely new optical disc replication production line.

And disc manufacturing isn't the only detail. A bigger part of the cost is in the creation of the disc. Prices have dropped radically for standard definition DVD authoring due to maturing technology and overall computer power reaching the point to handle it with quite a bit of ease.

It is a lot more complicated handling HD video material. Computer power requirements are much greater. Just about any video authoring setup for HD requires good quality RAID disc systems and other expensive proprietary equipment to produce material in a productively quick and profitable manner.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 03-17-2006, 05:46 PM:

quote: Mike Schindler
I could be wrong about this, but I think the increased production cost only applies to Blu-ray.

The $40K vs $2K cost is for MASTERING, and has nothing to do with stamping. Both new formats will need new mastering equipment due to the "spot" size being much smaller. HD-DVD will be buying new stamping equipment as well as Blu-ray, because they are not going to stop making DVDs when they start making HD-DVDs.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-17-2006, 09:27 PM:

Mike, sorry I failed to see the sarcasm. Sometimes ya gotta stick the right smiley in there! [Razz]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-18-2006, 12:14 AM:

FWIW some bands/artists have the power to direct the record company's pricing. That's why you never see any Stones or Beatles on discount. But many, many older titles get moved to the "mid-line" (lower priced) catalog after a few years. Not sure why it takes so long....I think they ought to be mid-lined as soon as they drop off the charts, but dealers would probably crap over that because their inventory would be constantly being devalued.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 03-24-2006, 02:28 PM:

Would the requirement for the high def DVD player to be hooked to the internet be a full-time requirement or just an "every now and then" requirement. I can see the "having a party and the internet connection going out and not being able to play a movie" being a problem, or playing the movie in a place without internet connectivity being a problem.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 03-24-2006, 02:51 PM:

DVD and Music CD pricing has nothing to do with manufacturing cost, just as popcorn prices have nothing to do with cost of the raw product. Pricing has to do with what the market will accept. The downfall of the music industry was that they failed to concider this for a few years. This may also explain some of the resistance to going out to the movies, but I don't think so.

I think competition for our eyeballs is wearing us down, so that people aren't interested in doing everything anymore. Going to the movies just isn't special anymore. I think that's what people are missing.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 03-24-2006, 03:13 PM:

About going to the movies not being special anymore: The main reason I rarely go to the movies any more is that the theatre experience has largely lost its luster. Going to see at least one movie every couple of weeks was something I looked forward to tremendously until about a year and a half ago, then I mostly stopped caring. The only time I go any more is if a friend wants to go. I've had a free ticket for "Pink Panther" in my car for a couple of months and haven't used it. That's unheard of for me -- to miss a chance to go to the movies for free?!

I'm seeing fewer movies in theatres than ever, mainly due to the tacky ads and less attention paid to presentation quality than ever before. People in theatres seem ruder and more distracting than ever -- children making noise, people kicking seats, letting cell phones ring and talking on them, and even talking to each other during the movie. I've foudn that as I've gotten older, my bladder just won't hold for an entire movie like it used to and I find that getting up to run to the restroom at least once is a necessity if I've eaten a meal and had a full glass of tea any time within an hour or so of the start of the movie. I miss a couple of minutes when I do that.

At home, I can, with friends, watch a DVD on a wide screen that looks great (sometimes better than the shoddy presentations I occasionally encounter in the theatre). Yeah, 35mm should always beat DVD, but it doesn't, not because the 35mm medium isn't capable, but because the sound systems often don't play in digital and play in analog on neglected, miscalibrated systems, or drop in and out of digital frequently. No attention seems to be given to having a properly aimed projector with a properly cut aperture plate with proper masking stops, and having a nice bright evenly-lit, in-focus image on the screen, or getting the image properly in-frame (for flat films).

With DVD, I can stop the movie, back it up a little to re-hear unclear dialogue (and even turn subtitles on for a minute if needed), pause the movie to go to the restroom or for any other needed reason, adjust the volume to my liking on a system I've calibrated myself, and view the image on a set I've calibrated properly with test patterns.

Movie tickets are too high and there is too much advertising in theatres. For the price of a friend and I going to the theatre, I can buy a DVD that can be controlled and played as much as I like, when I like.

As for High-Def DVD -- unless it's just as convenient as DVD currently is -- it won't fly. My set has component inputs, like most currently-installed HDTVs. Not being able to get 1080i out of a a high-def DVD player is criminal and I will not buy any such device until I have a TV with their special connector, which won't be until that TV goes bad on me.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-24-2006, 03:46 PM:

With the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats nearing launch, studios are clearly seeing just how badly certain features of those formats are being received by the public.

More articles are now appearing that show studios are backing away from a number of unpopular features that were to be mandatory for the HD-movie disc formats.

The AACS group is now saying no HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player will require an Internet connection for operation. The only time an Internet connection may be required is if a disc uses certain "managed copy" features, where the user would validate his disc with a movie studio clearing house before making a copy to his computer hard drive or streaming content to another device.

There also seems to be more strength in the push to make HD-DVD and Blu-Ray allow HD-quality video on standard component video cables for backward compatibility with a few million HDTV monitors in the marketplace.

When one considers the overall lackluster quality in both the concept and execution of most movies these days, it makes little sense for the studios to have militant attitudes toward copy protection. If there is little to no value in the movie, why protect it? It would seem more important to produce movies the public even gives a shit about in the first place.

That also seems pretty clear to the studios. They know they've been feeding the public the same old flavor of regurged swill for a long time. And it is pure hell to have a backlog of that kind of stink when you're wanting to launch a new generation of video playback formats. In that regard, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are clearly starting off at a terrible disadvantage compared to DVD. When DVD-V was launched in 1997, it had a much more impressive pool of recent films on which to draw for sales.

quote: Evans A Criswell
Not being able to get 1080i out of a a high-def DVD player is criminal and I will not buy any such device until I have a TV with their special connector, which won't be until that TV goes bad on me.

You'll be able to get 1080i, at least from some movies, across component video cables. Warner Bros. appears to be the lone holdout demanding HD-quality content be restricted to HDCP compliant digital connections.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will both output 720p and 1080i signals. The first generation of discs will be encoded for either of those formats, and probably 1080p as well. The folks who want 1080p output (myself included) may have to wait several months after initial launch for such capable players to appear.

Posted by Rick Hunter (Member # 1606) on 03-27-2006, 12:25 AM:

Toshiba delays HD DVD launch

quote:
Toshiba delays HD DVD player debut

March 25, 2006

Toshiba has postponed the release of
high-definition DVD players in the United States until April, a month later
than planned, so that it can synchronise the sales with
title releases from Hollywood studies.

A precise sales date was not available, said Toshiba spokeswoman Junko
Furuta.

But the Japanese electronics company was "currently working with major
studios and major retailers to finalize sales dates of our players," she
said. Toshiba had previously said it would release the new product in March.

Furuta cited last week's announcement by Time Warner's Warner Home Video
unit, which said that on April 18, it would release the first titles using
the HD DVD format, including Million Dollar Baby and The Last Samurai.

The HD DVD format and the competing Blu-ray disc format, backed by Sony,
deliver dazzling images in high-definition video and can store much more
data than today's DVDs, allowing for more interactive features, like
enjoying a movie while simultaneously watching the director discuss the
scene.

Sony has said it will start selling Blu-ray disc DVD players in the United
States this (northern) summer.

Toshiba's new HD DVD players, HD-XA1 and HD-A1, will be priced at $US799 and
$US499, respectively, the company has said.

The HD DVD format is backed by Universal Studios, Warner Bros. and Intel, as
well as Microsoft, which hopes its new Xbox 360 video game console will
challenge Sony's PlayStation.

The HD DVD format, jointly developed with Japan's NEC Corp, is incompatible
with Blu-ray, which is also backed by Matsushita Electric Industrial Co.
Ltd., which makes Panasonic brand products, Apple Computer, Hewlett-
Packard and Dell, along with a variety of other tech companies and studios.

Sony has already started selling video recorders that use the Blu-ray
technology and is planning to release the PlayStation 3 game consoles, which
also use the technology, by November. Sony has not disclosed a price for the
Blu-ray disc players.

Furuta said Toshiba has begun making pre-sale HD DVD demonstration in 40
major US cities since last month, including New York, Los Angeles and
Seattle.

AP

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-27-2006, 02:28 AM:

quote:
March 25, 2006

quote:
Toshiba has postponed the release of high-definition DVD players in the United States until April, a month later than planned

So HD-DVD was already supposed to be released, in the past? I only need wait 5 or 6 more days and April will be here. HD-DVD by next week!

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 03-27-2006, 02:14 PM:

It was supposed to come out tomorrow, but now they're saying 4/18.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 04-18-2006, 01:26 PM:

Just saw it on display at our local Best Buy. The Toshiba unit was $499, with Last Samurai, Serenity, and Phantom of the Opera on sale for I think $24.99. They were showing it on a Westinghouse LCD and it was running in 1080i. To me, the image looked good, much better than any DVD out there but I wasn't blown away. I guess if one has an HD set, this would be a nice addition, but for the average joe, it's going to be overkill.

AJG

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-18-2006, 05:32 PM:

How many people actually have HD sets? I think I personally know of one household that has one. My personal feeling is that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are both ahead of their time, since HD hasn't really caught on yet (at least among the people I know), assuming that it ever will. For the most part, the general public doesn't care much about picture quality beyond a certain point, and the jump from VHS to DVD was far more signifcant than the jump from SD to HD will be. Besides, HD isn't a huge benefit for small screen sizes; it's only really worthwhile for larger sets.

I'm inclined to believe that the general population would be better served by an uncompressed (or compressed less lossily) SD-DVD implementation, but no one asked me.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-18-2006, 06:31 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
My personal feeling is that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are both ahead of their time

This is very true in several aspects.

First, the TV technology just isn't there to take full advantage of it. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats are promising support for 1080p signal output sometime in the near future. The problem is there's hardly any HDTV monitors (if any at all) which can accept a 1080p signal through a HDMI cable. It has taken up to the last year or two for HDTV monitors to start actually supporting native 1080 HDTV resolution.

At least a few million HDTV monitors have been sold, but it is still largely a niche product. It's also a much bigger purchase than a movie disc player. DVD players flew off the shelves by the millions because the prices dropped to surprisingly low levels and could be attached to lots of standard TVs. The movie discs could also be played in lots of computers.

Further complicating the problem is the quality of movie output from Hollywood as of late.

The "new" factor hasn't really worn off standard DVD either. Many still really like the format. And it looks pretty decent on HDTV displays.

I only see HD-DVD and Blu-Ray reaching a critical mass once several other problems are solved:

1. Movies have to get better. Nothing drives a new video format like a great blockbuster debuting on home video in that format.

2. The power of personal computers has to improve enough to easily handle HD material. Right now only high end machines can do it. In addition, computers have to adopt one or both formats and have such optical drives available at affordable enough prices to where they become ubiquitous. DVD-ROM drives were already widely available when the desire for DVD-V standalone players really hit critical mass.

3. The quality of HDTV monitors has to mature to a satisfactory level (1080p native resolution, 1080p signal input support, 1080p rez computer monitor function, etc.).

4. Prices have to fall further. That may happen once analog terrestrial NTSC broadcasts are discontinued. Most square shaped standard resolution TV sets are already disappearing. HDTV has to be ubiquitous across all price ranges and monitor sizes before widespread adoption occurs.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-18-2006, 09:20 PM:

HD-DVD is available now with a huge library of 3 different movies to choose from. Pick such great titles as:

The Last Samurai
Million Dollar Baby
The Phantom of the Opera

Yeah! With great movies like that, you can't lose!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-18-2006, 09:23 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Nothing drives a new video format like a great blockbuster debuting on home video in that format.

Actually "porn" had more to do with VHS taking off than anything. (Mainstream movies at that time were crappier than they are now, as well.)

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 04-18-2006, 11:01 PM:

I was browsing at Best Buy today and checking out the Westinghouse 1080p LCD Monitor. It took me a few minutes but I figured out that it was playing off an HD DVD player. I couldn't really tell by the image. It was just a trailer disc and it didn't look good through Batman Returns, but Jarhead look alright. It didn't look as good as the demos with Discovery HD.

I still think that $2,500 is too much to pay for TV and it doesn't have a tuner. And $500 is a bit much to pay for a big clunky DVD player HD or no. I guess I'll wait til it's a bit cheaper and Netflix has 1,000 HD DVD titles.

I think I'm holding out for the $1,000 1080p LCD TV, so I guess it's another 2-years without a TV.

I'm going to go home and watch a Netflix DVD on my laptop. [dlp]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-22-2006, 06:22 PM:

From IMDB: Link

Critics Unimpressed with HD DVD

Consumer electronics writers have begun to weigh in on the new HD DVD players distributed by Toshiba this week, and most are unimpressed. Several cite an intolerably long boot-up period, a confusing menu system, and incompatible sound. But nearly all express disappointment in the picture. On smaller sets, the writers agree, the difference between HD DVD and a conventional DVD is virtually undetectable. "Bottom line is that HD DVD is great, but will you notice?" asks Ben Drawbaugh on HDBeat.com. Writing in the Los Angeles Times David Colker remarked that on larger screens he could detect a subtle difference. He added: "I tested my perceptions by switching between the two formats. I asked a colleague to close his eyes while I chose a version, then had him open them and guess: DVD or HD DVD? He got it right only about 75% of the time. So, yes, it's better. But don't expect the dramatic leap in quality that came with the transition from VHS to DVDs in the 1990s."

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-22-2006, 07:28 PM:

I went to Circuit City today just to see HD-DVD. They didn't have it. [Shrug]

I wouldn't be surprised if the resolution of HD DVDs is intentionally a little lower than the format is actually capable of.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 04-22-2006, 07:40 PM:

That article may apply to the average consumer, but the majority of the people who visit this site would appreciate the difference. The problem which most people seem to be having with the picture (myself included) is that the player's scaler is horrible. It seems as though the picture on 720p looks better with the player set to 1080i without exception. This is very annoying for most people, like myself, whose 720p displays bob instead of weave. And there's really no excuse for it. They even have a note which is included with the player which basically says, "Our scaler sucks. Sorry. Hope your TV's is better!" At least that's how I interpret it.

That being said, my bobbing 720p display looks substantially better when an HD DVD is playing. In a side by side comparison of SERENITY, there is absolutely no question which is better. And if your display is 1080, there's no problem whatsoever. No current video format will look better. It's like watching HDTV without the compression artifacts.

Also, just for completely anal historical accuracy or whatever, the first three titles were technically THE LAST SAMURAI, THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, and SERENITY. MILLION DOLLAR BABY was delayed a couple days due to replication problems.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-22-2006, 09:06 PM:

Probably true, but unless the "average consumer" likes it, the format is doomed. (Unless they kill regular DVD, which will probably happen I suppose.)

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 04-22-2006, 10:39 PM:

What I see happening is similar what is going on right now with SACD and those other high-end audio formats. DVD will be the standard thing that everyone has, but eventually players which will play the HD formats will become common. Most people won't care, but it'll be there for those that do. Also, with HDTVs becoming more and more popular, HD media needs to exist in some form or another, and a format as practical in its backwards compatability as this one won't die. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Blu-ray eventually crushes HD DVD or vice versa. But at least one of them will survive.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-23-2006, 12:20 AM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Actually "porn" had more to do with VHS taking off than anything.

Hmm. Porn in high def.

I'm not sure that would be a very good idea. Well, at least not a good idea for me to watch.

I don't want to see some lady's C-section scar in high def. I mean, it's bad enough seeing that one chick's vertical emergency C-section scar visible enough in VHS-shit-vision in the shower scene of Debbie Does Dallas. Red bumps from ingrown hairs on a woman's shaved crotch will show up like big polka dots on a girl's sun dress.

Porn in HD will demand better sets, not just the millionaire producer's swimming pool in the back of his mansion in the Hollywood Hills.

I do agree about porn being big business in VHS and even DVD. I'm just not sure how well its going to play in HD. It'll probably play great though and make a shit load of money.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-23-2006, 05:33 AM:

Incompatible sound? Please explain. Do I need to buy new ears?

Long boot up times? This is unacceptable. There is no reason this should occur. Maybe the designers of HD-DVD are retarded? This is the only possible scenario and nobody can disagree with it. Unless Toshiba is retarded or the disc authors are retarded. Somebody somewhere is retarded and they need to be set on fire and burned alive.

Does it run at 100Hz or are we stuck with 60Hz? We'll notice HUGE improvements once we start getting the 100Hz sets that the UK has had forever. Though 120Hz would be better, and as always we're better than England... except when we're not. Seriously though, ever notice how much better DVDs (properly authored) look on your computer screen? That's because it is set higher than 60Hz. It looks better than 480p on a HDTV. Much better. It's the scan rate. Needs to increase. Now. Not later. Now. Maybe yesterday.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-23-2006, 11:26 AM:

The main problem with the picture quality of HD-DVD is the puny bitrate. I think Time-Warner/Toshiba upped its capability to 20Mb/s, but it still could be running in the mere 15Mb/s data rate of its original design. Standard DVD-V has a maximum bandwidth of 10Mb/s. A mere 5 Mb/s jump in bandwidth to nearly quadruple the pixel count is very retarded.

The reasoning for this is bean-counter cost cutting crap. "Let's try to use the old equipment to make the new discs." And this is why the new discs are very limited and have picture quality not much better than standard DVD. It makes me wonder why Warner Bros. is so militant on that copy protection stance. If the picture quality is shit, why bother?

Blu-Ray discs can run in the 20Mb/s to 30Mb/s range. I anticipate the picture quality to look noticeably better than HD-DVD. The Blu-Ray camp seems to be working faster at developing multi-layer discs as well.

Of course, picture quality is not enough to win a format war. VHS was shit compared to Beta. But VHS won thanks to Sony wanting to keep the entire Betamax format to itself.

Incompatible Sound?

I'm not sure I understand this one. If Dolby Digital Plus is being used on any of the discs it is a backward compatible codec with standard Dolby Digital decoders. However, existing DD decoders will only play back a folded down portion of the otherwise expanded bitstream. Basically they'll get about the same DD performance as they currently get from existing DD tracks on DVD. Newer receivers can decode DD-Plus tracks with bitrates up to 6 Mb/s and lots more channels of sound.

Dolby True HD is a different format and I think you need an entirely new kind of decoder. Dolby True HD has a lossless surround component (and at higher bit depths like 24-bit) to it.

I'm not sure what DTS-HD requires from existing decoders or if it demands a new one.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 04-23-2006, 11:49 PM:

As far as the sound goes, the player has an internal DD+ decoder and 6 channel analog outputs for those of us without HDMI receivers. Sound can also be downconverted and sent over digital outputs, but as I understand it, the player does the downconverting. This particular player actually downconverts to a DTS signal, I suppose to take advantage of the higher bitrate(?). The only real incompatability issue that I've seen people comment on is how you need a DTS receiver in order to get 5.1 over a digital connection. If you only have DD, you're stuck with a 2 channel downmix.

I don't really know anything about how this stuff works. I'm just speaking from firsthand experience and what I read on the internet, so I could be wrong.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-24-2006, 01:45 AM:

What is it downmixing from?

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 04-24-2006, 09:48 AM:

From the 5.1 DD+ track. As I understand it, the player has 2 digital audio output options: Bitstream, which is the 5.1 track, or PCM, which is a 2 channel downmix.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-24-2006, 02:12 PM:

That is incredibly stupid. Dolby Digital Plus is backwards compatible. HD-DVD sucks ass!

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 04-25-2006, 12:42 AM:

Yes, but it sucks moderately less ass than any other home video format currently on the market, so that's good.

As for HD porn, I don't really see that taking off. The reason why VHS porn worked was because people could finally watch it in the privacy of their own home. DVD worked because it's a non-linear format and offered an added level of interactivity. But while HD DVD has those qualities, what puts it significantly above the rest is better picture and sound. And as we learned in BOOGIE NIGHTS, those two things don't matter when it comes to porn. Floyd Gondolli was right. It doesn't have to be good because no one cares.

That being said, when THE OPENING OF MISTY BEETHOVEN comes out in HD, I'll be the first in line to buy it. [thumbsup]

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-25-2006, 01:16 PM:

Deep Throat is supposed to be coming out on HD-DVD, though that can't do too much for all the UGLY people in that movie!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-25-2006, 04:07 PM:

You'll be able to see all the red bumps and "chicken skin" from Linda Lovelace's shaved naughty region in full HD glory.
[Razz]

As to the "downmixing" thing, Dolby Digital Plus can carry a lot more than 5.1 discrete channels, but should have the ability to fold those down into a 5.1 track (in a fashion similar to how DTS ES 6.1 works on a 5.1 system).

The DD+ audio track will be able to run at much higher bitrates, but a standard DD decoder will not see anymore than 640kb/s of that bitstream and not anymore than 5.1 channels.

As I said before, DD True HD is completely different and I think it requires a completely new decoder chip for playback. To me it seems like a successor of DVD Audio.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-26-2006, 03:05 PM:

On May 9th, Warner Home Video plans to release the movie "Rumor Has It" on DVD. They plan to release two versions. One with HD on one side of the disc and the standard definition on the other side and a regular version of the movie. The dual definition version is for those who may want to upgrade. [Smile]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-26-2006, 04:49 PM:

I have never heard of "Rumor Has It". Must suck donkey balls. Anyway if they plan for this to be successful, they need to price it like every new release DVD... $14.99.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 04-26-2006, 05:28 PM:

RUMOR HAS IT is Rob Reiner's new movie, and it's not that bad. It's sort of a pseudo-sequel to THE GRADUATE.

The stupid part is that it's not $15. It's $40, which would be almost as much as buying both the DVD and HD DVD separately. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-26-2006, 06:55 PM:

That is indeed stupid, as HD-DVD people certainly won't want the ever-so-slightly lower resolution regular DVD version.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-27-2006, 11:41 AM:

If the HD people would announce:

- NO MORE ANNOYING MENUS!
- NO FBI LOGO!
- NO MULTI-LINGUAL COPYRIGHT NOTICE!
- NO TRAILERS!

HD-DVD GOES RIGHT TO YOUR MOVIE WITHOUT ANY WAITING!

...it'd catch on faster.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 04-27-2006, 01:43 PM:

The Warner Bros. movies have FBI warnings and stuff, but there is no menu in the DVD sense. The movie starts up on its own, and the menu can be accessed as an overlay while the movie is playing. I like this, but I wish it started with a menu instead of the movie so that you could set the sound and stuff to the way it's supposed to be before the movie starts.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-27-2006, 06:13 PM:

A simple menu that has three options:

-Play god damn movie
-Set up the sound and subtitle options
-View the other crap that you'll only watch once (special features)

That would be fine. The menu should only be a still screen with no lead-in motion or lead-out motion. I've seen some menus that give away parts of the movie before you can even click play! The FBI logo can be printed on the box and/or disc. Its presence on the screen prevents nothing. Also anything unskippable needs to go away. People who work for movie studios are morons and that is a scientific fact that cannot be proven wrong be anybody on the planet.