Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: My Home Theatre/Screening Room

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Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 07-05-2006, 11:29 AM:

Well, the conversion of my two-car garage has begun. My wife [Razz]

has given the go-ahead for me to build my own home theatre. The room itself will be 18' by 22', however I was thinking of making the actual 'screening room' either 10' by 10' - or 12' by 12'.

Here is the question: What is an ideal size? I would be happy with a 6' screen, and 6 to 8 chairs. I want a true theatre experience. So please - hit me with recommendations - brands, styles, size, speaker arrays - etc. No to say that cost is an issue (it is) - however this is a long term investment - so I want to make it the best I can. I am willing to shell out some dough - if I have to.

Anyone interested in advice?

Thanks in advance.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-05-2006, 12:37 PM:

You might want to re-think those dimensions. Square rooms tend to have sound problems.

Will you be running film, video, or both?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-05-2006, 02:26 PM:

Standard SMPTE 196M specifies a viewing distance of 3 times the image height for screening rooms. A nicely proportioned room would have the preferred seating between 2 and 4 image heights from the image.

If your screen is only 2.5 X 6 feet, your best seating would be between 5 and 10 feet from the screen. Yet a 5 X 12 foot screen would nicely serve a larger room, with seats between 10 and 20 feet from the screen.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 07-05-2006, 03:04 PM:

I have the option of making a rectangle shaped room, or whatever. I have never done this - hence the questions.

Thank you both for the replies.

It will be video and not film.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-05-2006, 03:26 PM:

For SD video, your seating distances should be further away from the screen, so you are not distracted by video artifacts.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 07-09-2006, 01:45 PM:

I guess the two big choices to make when selecting a video projector are DLP vs. LCD and SD vs. HD. Depending on your budget, I would personally recommend DLP and (of course) HD. From my limited personal experience, it seems that DLP has better contrast and a brighter image, but LCD has better colors and a sharper image. DLP probably has more artifacting than LCD, but the one thing you won't have to deal with are dust blobs. And that's worth all the money in the world.

If you're planning for the future, definitely go with a 720p projector. Even if you're only watching DVDs now, the HD formats will drop in price soon.

You can get a decent 720p DLP projector for somewhere around $2500 now. There are a few options to choose from. I have the Optoma HD72, although I hear the new InFocus is really nice too. If that's out of your price range, InFocus makes a very nice 480p DLP projector which is around $1000.

And if it were me, I'd go for an 8x4.5 foot screen. That's what I have, sitting about 13 feet away from it. If anything, I'd want to move closer. The video artifacting is not that bothersome, even on DVDs.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-09-2006, 02:31 PM:

I would stay away from the single-chip DLPs...they are VERY annoying (to me, at least...too much rainbow artifacting...very distracting the way it blips up).

In 2006, I would go for an LCD system. The two leading contenders seem to be Sanyo (the PLV-Z4) and its rival the Panasonic AE-900. Both are 720x1280 systems, both can be had for under $2K and both are 1000 lumen systems.

If you want a half-way-house system, you can go up to 1366 x 768 LCD projectors in the low-mid thousands (Like a Sanyo PLV-75 that is 2200 lumens). There are now even LCD projectors going out ot 1920 x 1080 but they are not really priced for Home Theatre yet (now in the Mid $30K with a lens but over 5000 Lumens).

However, I think in the next year or two you will see LCoS breakout and be in the 1920x1080 resolutions for under $5000 and problably closer to $3K.

A couple of years ago I bought a Sanyo PLV-70 (1366 x 768) and it does very well with HD program material (this projector is used in many theatres as a advertising projector by one of the national providers that used to service Loews). I don't regret the purchase...it has already provided me years of service but once 1920 x 1080 is reasonably priced for the home...I'm movin' on up.

If any of you all need Sanyo projectors, email me, we sell them.

Steve

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 07-09-2006, 03:08 PM:

I had a Sanyo LCD projector (I think it was the Z1), and I had major dust blob problems. When I called their customer service dept., they were extremely rude and of no help whatsoever.

As for DLP rainbows, some people don't notice them, and some people can't stand them. For me it's just a minor annoyance, but you should check it out yourself to see how distracting you find them.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-09-2006, 03:24 PM:

Sanyo does have a 3-year Quick Repair Program. That is, for the first 3-years, Sanyo will warrant their products against defects (including dust blobs). They pay overnight freight both ways and repair the products within 72-hours (48-hours seem to be typical for the couple of units we have needed to return).

Personally, I have not found the dust blobs to be a problem. My biggest complaint with the Sanyos is that one does need to keep the filters clean.

Then again, I've come across the filter thing on other projectors too. It really depends on the environment.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 07-09-2006, 04:40 PM:

I tried using their QRP thing, but they said that dust blobs are not covered under the warranty because it is a "user maintenance" issue. The problem is, if you clean the blobs off yourself, you void the warranty. They said I wasn't cleaning the filter enough, but I was cleaning it weekly. I've read that part of the problem is that dust enters the projector through a different intake as well. Either way, I've never dealt with a projector that's had such a problem with dust. And the way they handled the situation was even worse.

Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 07-13-2006, 11:59 AM:

Contact the Dealer you bought the projector from & let them get the RA( return Authorization) for your projector. Sanyo Has always been good to us regarding warranty (Including Dust on the panels) work & We sell LOTS of them. Also, never discount the fact that you might have just spoken to an ASSHOLE at Sanyo service..Hey, They're EVERYWHERE! [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-13-2006, 01:20 PM:

That is just it...a dealer is supposed to go to bat for you in the event of a problem...otherwise, they are just a box-mover. We too have not had issues with Sanyo service.

I do note that on the PLV-Z4, they include an air bulb and slots in the unit for blowing the dust out of the panels!

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 07-13-2006, 01:39 PM:

Thanks, Fred & Steve. I'll contact my dealer and see what they can do.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-13-2006, 02:19 PM:

Sorry, but I will never purchase another Sanyo product again. I had a bunch of theaters running these and even with the projectionists cleaning the MULTIPLE filters twice a week, we had failure after failure. While Sanyo did promptly get the machines fixed, it was only a matter of time until the problems started back up (which wasn't very long).

NO video projector should require THAT much attention. Besides, how in the hell are you supposed to clean the filters twice a week if the machine is mounted upside down from a ceiling??? (It's pictured in the manual that way, so I know it was intended.)

Sanyo=crap Buyer beware

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 07-13-2006, 02:56 PM:

Why don't you mention Sanyo's idea of running the projectors upside down to minimize the problems?

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 07-13-2006, 04:02 PM:

Maybe it had something to do with those theaters running them ALL DAY LONG whether or not they were on screen?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-14-2006, 02:35 AM:

We tried it both ways, Adam. Originally Sanyo said we would get better life if we left them lit all day long, but we didn't so I changed the automation to turn them on only during intermission, and low and behold we didn't get any better life that way either.

Chris is right and I'm not joking, Sanyo actually recommended we turn the projectors UPSIDE DOWN to solve the problems. I had forgotten about that one. Needless to say, since the projectors came with leveling feet, I refused to waste my time on that stupid idea. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 07-14-2006, 10:50 AM:

For projectors designed to operate upside-down, it makes sense to give it a try. Think about it ... gravity will generally prevent dust from settling on the face of a mirror that's facing down.

Maybe you should have bought the $20,000 model that we had at Imax. I never had any problems with that one, and it was mounted upside-up. Come to think of it, I don't remember ever cleaning the filters on it ... maybe the blocked filters prevented any internal dust buildup. [evil]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-14-2006, 11:20 AM:

But it's also got leveling feet and the manual clearly says you can operate it in either position. If operating it "right side up" is bad, then they shouldn't have put leveling feet on it and they shouldn't have said you could run it that way in the manual.

Sanyo still sucks. [Razz]

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-14-2006, 12:47 PM:

Barco LCD have sealed optical blocks so dust is not an issue but the price is much higher [Smile]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-14-2006, 02:17 PM:

For what it's worth, the biggest bang for the buck in terms of inexpensive pretty decent video projectors IMHO is the Panasonic PT-D3500U. It's about $5000 with the long throw lens, and has a DB9 connection that can be hooked into any automation with make/break relays to control all of the basic functions. The picture is pretty darned good too for it's price.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-16-2006, 04:10 AM:

quote: Adam Martin
For projectors designed to operate upside-down, it makes sense to give it a try.

In our small circuit with 32 screens, all of our Hitachi units are mounted upside down on the tilt platforms that originally held those Kodak Carousel units.

This made is so much easier to do bulb changeouts, in as well as the filter cleaning - which the filters units are mounted on the bottom of the units.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-17-2006, 01:23 PM:

By far, our Sanyos are mounted upside-down...this was done primarily to eliminate keystone (since the lower cost units often only will lens shift in one direction).

No problems getting to the filters either...BTW...we just are not having service issues wit the Sanyos. In fact, we have repeat business on them all of the time.

As to lamp life...it seems to be a pig in a poke on them...with any manufacturer...I've had my marathon lamps and those that seem to loose it by 500Hours. FWIW...my last lamp the PLV-70 has gone more than double the previous one and still looks good.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-22-2006, 11:35 PM:

Which is preferable -- digital keystoning correction (wouldn't this cause some undesirable video artifacts?) or mechanical lens shifting correction? We rented an Eiki for preshow junk at the park venue and the thing wouldn't correct keystoning. They asked me why -- people get very frustrated when they push a button called keystone correction and nothing happens. I just laugh. I said I thought it might be because it was optical lens movement/correction; they had to switch lenses and the long throw may not have had the little motors or whatever instead of some digital correction shenanigans, but then, what the hell do I know.

I said, just enlarge the picture so it spills over the sides of the hanging screen. The screen will look square, they won't be noticing the angled light on the sides of the back wall 10 feet away.

Does ANY video projector put the menus on a separate output so that you can view the damn things close up instead of having to use a feakin Hubbel telescope to read them? How 'bout a $20 LCD display screen built into the top or bottom of the case, or just a simple output that you can run to a monitor any place you want? The kid who was trying to align this thing was about to take an ax to it, which I totally agreeded was quite appropriate. He is a lot stronger than me and has a much heftier, downward power swing.

Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 07-23-2006, 01:14 PM:

Eiki's are re-badged Sanyo's. Any of the larger Eiki/Sanyo's have motor driven mechanical lens shifting (Regardless of the lens installed) as well as electronic keystone correction. Within reason I've not noticed any nasty artifacting from using the Keystone correction. And, yes. Always carry your binoculars as the menus are a tough read 100 ft away from the screen. [Wink]

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 07-23-2006, 09:06 PM:

With my Sanyo, the problem which I noticed with the keystone correction (and I'd assume this is true for most projectors) is that the image actually gets squished in slightly. So instead of correcting the problem, it just makes it equally bad all the way around. Also, you lose a tiny bit of resolution.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-24-2006, 06:51 AM:

As a general rule, you NEVER want to use any form of electronic keystone correction. A mechanical lens shift is perfectly fine so long as the shifting is within the lens' capability (no vignetting or other abberations).

When you electronically keystone correct, you use a pixel-for-pixel representation and the lowering of resolution is quite notable, especially for data. Plug a lap top computer into a projector and one can instantly see the image quality difference when any amount of keystone correction is used.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 08-15-2006, 06:32 PM:

Just an update.... my wife and I have put the home theatre on hold. We have just been made aware of other things we have to spend our money on..

Oh well............what's new?

Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 08-16-2006, 05:22 PM:

While I fully agree with Steve's comment that electronic keystone correction is to be avoided, there is also a problem with optical correction via a lens shift. The Panasonic AE700 and 900 have this feature, but I have discovered an unfortunate disadvantage using it.

My projector is slightly off set laterally, a necessity of wanting 35mm, 16mm and digital in a home theatrette. The correction works beautifully with the picture fitting exactly the maskings for 3x4 and 16x9.

The problem occurs when I zoom the image out to maintain fixed height for cinemascope with all the variations in ratios that this format entails. Although the motorised maskings move out by equal distance, the scope picture is no longer fitting the maskings but is off set laterally to the screen.

This is because the amount of lateral movement of the picture produced by the lens shift varies with the focal length setting of the zoom lens. The projector has an electronic zoom setting on the remote, but this doesn't suit the wide variety of scope aspect ratios with differing letterbox heights. This is particularly so on older titles that have originated from 70mm, 35mm 4 track mag etc.

Because the projector is fixed mounted on a shelf, the most convenient way to correct this, is with the lens shift (keystone) adjustment. The method while a little clumsy, works fine.

This however, rather spoils the presentation if I am running both formats to an audience. I have a solenoid operated shutter in front of the lens to enable changovers and can cue material up on a monitor screen in the projection room, but the picture movement adjustment can only be performed while viewing the projected image.

The best way to overcome these problems, is to not have any keystone distortion at all. If you can place the projector squarely to the centre of the screen, then do so. Every solution is a compromise unless you can afford to do what my friend has. He installed two projectors, with each permanently set on a separate aspect ratio so that significant zooming isn't required.

[ 08-17-2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Warren Smyth ]