Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 78's

This is topic 78's in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 10-10-2006, 01:08 AM:

I have a small collection of 78's, some of them recordings of my granmother's singing back when she could really sing well. My parents are gonig to get one of those all in one, vintage looking, systems which plays 78's. I'm looking to use that to rip the 78's to my computer, and "re-master" them. I'm thinking about using Cakewalk, or some other similar sofware to adjust the speed (since most 78's vary between 74 and 82 I think) and reduce the noise via filters. I also want to copy the track over to 2-channel, and simulate stero by equalising the channels so different sounds come out stronger on one channel or the other. Lastly, I beleive Cakewalk has a built in sofware compander. I may be able to tweak the dynamic range to a more acceptable level.

I'd simply bit the bullet and just buy CDs of these, but most of them haven't been reissued on a modern format, and thus the 78 is the only source, at least for that particular performance. So am I on the right track? What sould I do that I'm forgetting? What should I not do, that I've mentioned? Even if it takes time sitting and tweaking, I want to squeeze every bit of quality I can out of them. Especially my G-ma's recordings. She's not coming back to life to re-record them for us.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-10-2006, 11:54 AM:

There is also software that will allow you to play your '78s' on a regular 33-rpm turntable and will convert it to the correct speed. You will need a special stylus though, because the 78 groove is much larger than the 33 or 45 groove.

Of course if you have a decent way of hooking up a 78 turntable into your sound system or sound card, all is well. I'd say you're on the right track.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 10-10-2006, 12:44 PM:

Simulated stereo is the DEVIL!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-10-2006, 06:01 PM:

I agree. Preserve the records in their original form...good solid mono. If you can find software that will help remove some of the noise, I would do that though.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-10-2006, 06:17 PM:

Find someone who collects 78s who can help you transfer them properly to a newer format. These predate the RIAA curve and you need a preamp which can use any of several EQ curves that were in use before the RIAA curve was standardized. In addition to a fancy preamp, you will also need a range of styli, as 78 grooves come in different widths. DO NOT attempt to play a 78 with an LP stylus--if you do, you will destroy the disk (and maybe the stylus).

Even though we think of 78s as being a primitive technology, I've heard some that sound amazing when played back on a good turntable with a high-end preamp. They are noisy, but the quality of the sound is much better than I would have expected, given the time in which the recordings were made (many predate tape recorders and were made directly to disk).

Your local used record store could probably help you find a 78 collector in your area. You might have to rent a DAT machine or something like that if you want to transfer the recordings on someone else's system.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-10-2006, 07:05 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Preserve the records in their original form...good solid mono.

quote: Scott Norwood
Your local used record store could probably help you find a 78 collector in your area.

Google for the collector sites and info.

Many 78 RPM turntables can be found on eBay...some are even "professional" like the Gates Radio series.

While I have no 78s, I have transferred more than 5,000 45s and selected tunes from 33-1/3 LPs in my vinyl collection using a Technics SL1210MK2BLK turntable w/Shure V15V MR cartridge...and an outboard RIAA mag preamp.

(I sold-off my 78s years ago when I no longer had any Jukeboxes for them) [Smile]

Keep in mind the 33s and 45s are micro-groove recordings and require a 0.7 mil (or MicroRidge or "oval") stylus while the 78s are "standard" groove and require a 0.3 mil stylus.

For recording I use "LP Recorder". For editing, I use the Creative WaveStudio sound editing program that came with my Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Gold Pro sound card. It is excellent and has a really great pop & click remover.

I used the *.wav format and then converted most to 192k mp3 for my laptop. (AND, to email to KVXL so Ms. Martha can request them... AND bug the "DJ" ...Red Dick!)

Posted by Wayne Keyser (Member # 2420) on 10-10-2006, 08:16 PM:

Besides the right size stylus, you might want to think about this: when the 78 was in vogue, styli were fairly soft steel. You bought them by the dozen, in a little box or can. Some of them were even bamboo splinters.

Soft lacquer + diamond stylus = destroyed 78's.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 10-11-2006, 12:39 AM:

quote: Phil Hill
For editing, I use the Creative WaveStudio sound editing program that came with my Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Gold Pro sound card.

A version came with my old SB-16, isa card. But it's long sind been obsolete, and my SB-live 5.1 doesn't have the software.

So, no trying to simulate stereo.
The player they're getting comes with 2 stylii, one for Microgroove, and one for 78s. I'd assume if you set it to 78, it'll also use the appropriate EQ setting, if any. These I don't think have any curve applied to them. I will use uncrompressed WAV, and convert to a lossless format like, mp4?

I've done this once, using one of those old suitcase players that have at the schools, that plays 16,33,45,and 78s. With the double sided stylus you flip over for 78s. Patched the headphone out to the input of my graphic EQ to clean up the sound and simulate stereo, and recorded to CrO2 tape. Oddly enough, it souded pretty good, considering the crudity of the player, and the attempt to simulate stereo went well too. Some instruments coume out more on one channe, some on the other, but it's not distracting, and added a bit of depth to the sound.

Now, I want to go back to the "masters", and get a fresh, faithful, sound from them. Clean it up, and copy it to CD, which is a non-degrading format, plus it's digital so it can be copied faithfully, and it's mostly current. It'll be short work to upgrade them to SACD or DVD-a or whatever the next format will be.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-11-2006, 05:36 AM:

CDs are _not_ non-degrading, especially if they are CD-Rs. Plan for the shelf life to be 1-5 years, depending on the quality of the media (I recommend Taiyo Yuden 72-minute blanks; others like the Mitsuis; don't use the less-expensive and more common 80-minute blanks, as they require tighter tolerances in manufacturing and playback equiment).

If you are really serious about preserving the recordings, you should make a copy on analog tape media (probably 1/4" mono or 2-track stereo, 7.5 or 15ips) and definitely save the original disks. Both of these formats will outlast CD-Rs and do not require constant maintenance (re-copying) every couple of years.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 10-11-2006, 09:46 AM:

Yeah, I forget the dye eventualle dies :hehe: after a while. But point was, CD's dont really wear out, and lose quality as they do, as with magnetic media.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 10-11-2006, 06:04 PM:

There is big confusion about the life of CD-Rs. You have between 5 and 10 years to RECORD on a CD-R. After that time the recordable layer becomes intrinsic, and will no longer RECORD. Once recorded a CD-R should last between 50 and 200 years, and may even out last a pressed CD. Do not put them in direct sunlight for any length of time, and DO NOT put stick-on labels on CD-Rs. The recording on a CD is on the back side of the disc. The glue used on some of the stick-on labels can react with the recorded layer, and damage it. The label will, over time, shrink, putting stress on the recorded layer, and damaging it. If you have any CD-Rs with stick-on labels, copy them ASAP if they will still play. DO NOT try to pull the label off the disc, this will DESTROY the recording. Also, do not scratch the back side of the disc, or write on it with anything but a soft felt tip pen. Any damage to the back side of a CD will destroy the recording.

I have CD-Rs that I recorded 8 years ago, and they still play just fine.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 10-12-2006, 11:07 AM:

Same here, and their cheapies. Though I do remember something about them having a finite life, not just for recording. But it's been a while, and may have been talking about the older dyes, since the newer ones listed in the article had much longer lives.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-17-2006, 03:19 AM:

The key to success in transferring 78s, IMHO, is to put most of the time and effort into playing them back right rather than having to correct avoidable audio defects using software. Unless (and in some cases, even if) you have a really high-end software product such as Cedar (around $20k per licence), they will always be less effective at removing noise without removing some of the signal along with it.

I've done quite a bit of 78 transferring, and put a sample of results on my website. All of these were transferred using a Goldring Lenco GL78 turntable, with a Goldring G800 cartridge, a 2.7mm conical diamond stylus and 3.6 grams of tracking force. To minimise surface noise and hiss, it's a good idea to thoroughly clean the record first. For shellac (pressed) 78s, many hardcore collectors recommend simply washing it by immersing it in water and wiping laterally using a dishcloth. Absolutely DO NOT do that with an acetate-on-steel or an acetate-on-glass disc, though, due to the risk of the water permeating the substrate and washing the binder layer away. These records almost always need to be cleaned professionally using a vacuum-type machine before transfer.

I don't have a sound card with a balanced phono input, and so I tried two approaches for the capture: (i) using the mic input of my middle of the range Creative audio card and then applying a little bit of surface noise reduction using Adobe Audition, and (ii) using the phono input of my hi-fi amp to provide the boost, and then trying to strip the RIAA curve out of the resulting signal using an EQ filter (basic instructions for how to do this can be found here).

Neither was perfect - the mic input doesn't amplify the signal enough and picks up a bit of a hum which then has to be stripped out using a frequency filter, while I haven't totally been able to get the treble response using a 'de-RIAA' approach that I'd expect to be hearing when comparing my 78 transfers with good professional ones. I'd love to be able to find a PC sound card with a balanced phono input on which the RIAA curve is optional (i.e. you can disable it during capture if you want to), but have not been able to. For the capture, editing and output I've been using Adobe Audition 1.5 at the software end. I find that its noise reduction and surface click/pop/hiss elimination can go so far and no further without seriously affecting the signal - it's a very reasonable package for the price but nowhere near in the same league as, say, Cedar or NoNoise.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-17-2006, 10:16 AM:

quote: Bruce Hansen
There is big confusion about the life of CD-Rs. You have between 5 and 10 years to RECORD on a CD-R. After that time the recordable layer becomes intrinsic, and will no longer RECORD.

You can't record on them, but that does not mean that the dye is stable. Leaving a disc in bright sunlight for a while can make it unreadable.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-17-2006, 01:00 PM:

Stability Study of Recordable Optical Discs

Concludes that storage in dark conditions is probably the most important controllable environmental factor, as others above have noted.

Care and Handling of CDs and DVDs (guide for librarians and archivists).

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-17-2006, 06:21 PM:

Be sure to MONO up the channels; this not only guarantees that it will be the same in both channels, but it also cancels rumble & anything else that has a vertical component. Louis

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 10-17-2006, 10:15 PM:

Antique Electronics Supply in Tempe, AZ www.tubesandmore.com stocks new 78 needles. 78 needles are only good for x-number of plays.

For 78 info you might look at the antique radio forum.

There used to be a store in San Bernardino, CA that specialized in restoration of antique Victrolas, etc. This was back in the early 1990's, so not sure if they are still there.

Kutler

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-18-2006, 12:11 AM:

Luckilly, I have a turntable that does the speed for these old shellacs, but the real way to do all of this recording production is to get a dedicated mono cartridge and styli-the conical version.

Now, if you're producing audio copies of the old vertical cut Edison 1/4" platters, then the cheap stereo cartridge works great with that since the groove width is narrower.

Just do a parallel output of one side of the cartridge for mono output since the dual channel playback will reveal a "hole in the middle" sound since the magnets/coils are wired with opposite poles of each other causing the output current to be out of phase with vertical cut platters (since one pole/magnet is pulling whereas the other one is pushing with one groove cycle in using a stereo cartridge and styli).

You might have to add a gram or two on the tonearm when doing these shellacs.

-Monte

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 10-18-2006, 03:11 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
...if you're producing audio copies of the old vertical cut Edison 1/4" platters, then the cheap stereo cartridge works great with that since the groove width is narrower.

I'd be ***REAL*** careful about doing that! Without the proper playback cartridge/needle you can permanently damage the recoding.

I suggest one do Google for the proper methods.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-18-2006, 06:20 AM:

quote: Will Kutler
78 needles are only good for x-number of plays.

If you mean steel needles of the sort that were used in acoustic gramophones, each needle was good for between 1 and 5 sides, depending on the grade of steel; each record was generally good for 50 and 100 (depending on an number of variables) plays for a shellac pressing, before the grooves were basically shredded.

Acetate on glass/steel individual pressings had a much shorter lifespan - sometimes as little as 10-20 plays - and required playback with a wooden stylus, as it was less abrasive.

Personally I'd say it was ethically very questionable whether you should use acoustic gramophones for transfer. The steel needles are much more abrasive than the diamond or sapphire ones in a moving magnet or moving coil electronic cartridge: they will inflict permanent, irreversible damage on the record being played. Set against which, you could argue that acoustic playback is more authentic, and will give you a better idea of how the record will have sounded when originally played.

Nimbus Records takes the latter view, and uses acoustic playback for its 78 to CD releases, albeit using wooden needles. But the usually accepted golden rule of any form of archival preservation or restoration, from oil paintings to videotapes, is to do nothing which is or could be irreversible, no matter what the short term benefit. Me, I'd steer clear of acoustic playback in the hope that there'll eventually be a computer-based way of recreating the sound. In the meantime, no damage has been done to any records.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 10-18-2006, 11:23 AM:

ELP Laser Turntable

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 10-18-2006, 11:53 AM:

Jeffrey, I've seen them beofre, too expensive. Built a homemade one, won't play 78's, yet.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-18-2006, 12:34 PM:

Won't do coarsegroove records or speeds above 50rpm, sadly. I've also heard anecdotal evidence that records need to be almost clinically clean (i.e. you effectively need to use the thing in a clean air environment) to avoid it picking up huge amounts of surface noise. The non-invasive playback principle is a neat idea, though.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-18-2006, 07:25 PM:

quote:
and uses acoustic playback for its 78 to CD releases,

One needs to hear these Prima Voce series from Nimbus.

It's quite amazing that the results of this "re-recording" process can come out so lifelike -like if you're right there, standing in front of the horn yourself right after the artists have recorded their pieces for their programs..

quote:
I'd be ***REAL*** careful about doing that! Without the proper playback cartridge/needle you can permanently damage the recording.

I agree Phil and thx for the warning. - Monte

[ 10-19-2006, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]

Posted by Ron Keillor (Member # 1790) on 10-19-2006, 02:18 PM:

from Flanders and Swann's At the Drop of a Hat:
"...And then they amplified it.
It was MUCH LOUDER then
and we sharpened fibre needles
to make it soft again. "

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-19-2006, 04:27 PM:

...pass it through your rumble filter through your cutoff to your tweeter, and what does it give you?

FLUTTER ON YOUR BOTTOM! [Big Grin]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-03-2006, 04:07 PM:

regarding the ELP check out
http://www.smartdev.com/LT/laserturntable.html

and for a equalizer for the various curves
http://www.smartdev.com/LT/remaster.html

and for a turntable
http://www.smartdev.com/smartht.html

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-04-2006, 06:24 PM:

In the early 90's there was a series of recordings done using a certain model Victor talking machine and famous 78 RPM recordings of Caruso and other old opera stars, the Victor was set up on stage of an opera house that has near perfect acoustics. The Victor was equipped with a certain type of thorn needle instead of its normal steel needle and this rendered a virtually noisless background but only lasted for one play and had to be changed. I've heard these recordings and they are astonishing... you'd think it was an actual recording of Caruso himself. I think they were done by Refrence Recordings but I'm not 100% sure.

At home I use an antique wind up table top Victor for my 78 playback. When folks come over they always ask if the old Victrola works and then I astonish them with an old Bix Beiderbeck 78 that I have. That always drops their jaws!

Another good old turntable to use for 78's is the Rek-O-Kut... otherwise known as the Rumble-Kut. One also has to determine if the groove is verticle or laterally cut and use the appropriate cartridge. G.E. made the old variable reluctance catrtridges and I believe they had one model that could do both types by rotating the needle.

Mark

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-04-2006, 08:35 PM:

The Rek-O-Nut turntables with the dual pickup for 33 1/3 and 78....I used to remember using them building up music and sound effects for t.v shows, as a teenager, for WEDU TV in Tampa. We had the Valentino music / effect library and the 78 records where easier to cue up than 33 1/3. Rek-O-Nut is still around at
www.esotericsound.com

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 11-04-2006, 11:04 PM:

You're old Richard. J/k, but his has definatly been a worthwhile thread. I've gotten some good notes. Now I just wait on the equipment. I may purchase that EQ, if/when I get the money. Especially since my old one got trashed by my friend's kid. [fu]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-07-2006, 06:50 AM:

How much is one of those Smart equalisers? The only other phono preamp unit I know of which is specifically designed to cope with all the usual 78 curves is the Vadlyd one. This will set you back around 1,300 euros inc. VAT and delivery to the UK - way outside my budget, sadly.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 11-07-2006, 12:28 PM:

I don't know, didn't see a price on the site for that. Though they did have a price on there for the turntable, odd.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-08-2006, 09:41 AM:

Charles, Old [Big Grin]

the equipment at that station was museum castoff hardware...it was always russian roulette to see what hardware would fall apart during the 30 shows a week we had to produce [Cool]

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 11-08-2006, 11:35 PM:

quote: Richard Fowler
Charles, Old the equipment at that station was museum castoff hardware...it was always russian roulette to see what hardware would fall apart during the 30 shows a week we had to produce

I'm confused. I don't understand the context. What museium? [Confused]

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 11-30-2006, 05:20 PM:

Hammacher Schlemmer LP to CD recorder stereo system

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 11-30-2006, 08:27 PM:

LP-to-MP3 Converter This would be perfect if it did 78's. Remember, I want to be able to work with the track and clean it up a bit before recording to a CD or other media. My parents' play will be alot like the one you link, though. I'll just have to record "on the fly" on my copluter, and do the transfer in analog.

And remember these beasts from school? Original Stack-O-MaticTurntable The school model is what I initially did my 78 to tape transfer with.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 12-07-2006, 12:10 AM:

Ok, while we're waiting on that All-in-one my parents are supposed to be getting, how about one of my old dubs using that school model briefcase record player? I dubbed it through a Y-connector to give me 2 identical channels, ran it through my old EQ to tweak the tone, reduce rumble and hiss, and add a faux stero effect. It was recorded to CrO2 tape. There's been no specialized or digital retouching. I recorded to my computer straight to MP3, and cropped to size. So basically, here's what I did with such a minimal setup. Rhapsody in Blue on 78rpm Suprisingly, it's not that bad. I did this about a year, maybe 2, ago.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-12-2006, 10:45 AM:

The EQ boosted the midrange nicely, though the slightly muddy HF (e.g. the very high piano notes having a tendency to get drowned in surface noise) is something that happens when you start with an RIAA-equalised signal and which, IMHO, no amount of post-EQing can totally get rid of. The only way of getting a non-RIAA signal out of a turntable I know of which doesn't cost megabucks is to take it into the mike input of a sound card and then normalise to a 0db peak in the computer, but you need some not cheap software to really make that process work.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 12-12-2006, 09:10 PM:

Like I need more records...

An old friend, and film enthusiast of mine died a couple of months ago at the age of 80. He worked in radio and TV for over 45 years, and aquired several thousand 78's when the local AM station changed formats in the early 1960's. They are now mine. I am going to keep them where they are for now, as my friends grandson now owns the house, and is changing nothing.

Some of the discs are early rock and roll, but most are mid 1930's and up to around 1960 or so popular music, and hit parade stuff.

The discs are all lovingly arranged by artist in alphabetical order. I have the master list, too.

There's an old Gates broadcast turntable, with 2 tone arms... One is for standard discs, and the other is strictly for the old Edison lateral discs, and there are a couple of hundred of these.

I feel very fortunate to have received this collection. I truly miss my pal, Bill Banner, and hope that he is happy with my decisions on his collection distribution... I had to sell some of the equipment, mostly old broadcast TV stuff, and old cart machines, etc. for the family. They got all that money, too. I have no plans to sell any of the discs, but would like to record everything for myself. Im getting some really good ideas on this topic from youse guys. Keep them coming!

Bruce

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 12-13-2006, 04:33 AM:

I can link up more tracks if you like. They're on the aforementioned tapes, I can rip more to Mp3. I can't wait till they get the crosley, so I can rip directly from the 78 to Mp3, and then digitally EQ and tweak it. Like I said, the EQ for the current rips is done on an EQ I got for $10 at a garage sale. Too bad my friend's daughter ruined it, worked nicely, only problem was one of the aux inputs was dead, which I didn't need or use anyhow.

quote: Leo Enticknap
The EQ boosted the midrange nicely, though the slightly muddy HF (e.g. the very high piano notes having a tendency to get drowned in surface

I'll try to look out for that when I can do my direct rips, and EQ it in software.

quote: Leo Enticknap
is something that happens when you start with an RIAA-equalised signal

I think the discs predate RIAA-eq'ing, tough I could be wrong. Though the turntable might try to "correct" for it anyways, but one would hope that it'd turn that off when you selected 78 as a speed.

Also, when I get a direct rip, and am tweaking the files digitally, I may also correct for speed differences. Do recall that 78 is an average speed used, some records are recorded as low as 68? RPM, and some as high as 96?. I have a few programs, one of which must have the capability of slowing or speeding up the sound.

Like I mentioned, I'm pretty much trying to restore and remeaster as best as I can, without having to pay someone to do it for me. Part of it is the fun of doing it, and playing with the recordings and see what I can do.

So, for such a makeshift operation, you think it turned out pretty decent? Want me to rip more tracks? I even have recordings of my Grandmother, from way back in the day, they're pretty good. But she was self concious about people hearing them for some reason, so those I won't post, but I have others, like Shaharazade, or however it's spelled.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-13-2006, 04:27 PM:

quote: Charles Greenlee
I think the discs predate RIAA-eq'ing, tough I could be wrong.

You're right - no RIAA curve on shellac 78s. It was designed specifically for vinyl, in order to compensate for the poor HF performance of early disc cutters (Wikipedia page on RIAA). The cutter encoded the signal through the curve and the phono preamp reverses it in playback, similar to Dolby NR on an audio cassette. The problem is that if the RIAA curve is applied in playback but not in recording, the signal will be distorted. During the electrically recorded 78 period (from 1925 approx.), different record companies used different EQ curves, but none distorted the frequency range as radically as RIAA.

The problem with playing back 78s nowadays is that all phono preamps except those specifically designed for 78 reproduction have RIAA equalisation built in. To get round this you can (i) take the phono level output (much lower than line level) straight into the mike input of a sound card and normalise using software, (ii) buy a phono preamp stage that doesn't apply RIAA - seriously expensive - or (iii) capture through an RIAA preamp, and then use secondary equalisation to try and reverse it, by reducing the HF ranges and boosting the bass.

I've stuck some examples of each on my website here. The Titanic record was captured through a mike input, with normalisation and a bit of surface noise reduction done using Adobe Audition. The joke record and the cigarette advert were taken through an RIAA phono preamp into a desktop audio CD recorder; the recordings were then captured through Audition, the HF attenuated a bit and the bass boosted a bit. The sound card method allowed for better surface noise reduction, but at the expense of overall HF response, to my ears.

quote: Charles Greenlee
Do recall that 78 is an average speed used, some records are recorded as low as 68? RPM, and some as high as 96?

The variances mainly come in records from the pre-electric era, i.e. before the mid-20s. After then the cutting lathes were mainly driven by electric motors and the speed is pretty constant and reliable. To tell whether the speed is right you really need someone with perfect pitch to tell you if what should be a middle C really is a middle C.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-15-2006, 03:40 PM:

..and get a turntable set up for a dedicated 78 cartridge using that mic imput configuration to soundcard..

(but, if you want to hear something awful, is to do the mic input from LP without using the RIAA preamp...sound is so horribly flat..)

quote: Leo Enticknap
To tell whether the speed is right you really need someone with perfect pitch to tell you if what should be a middle C really is a middle C.

..or, an electronic keyboard and play middle "c" against the tone on the recorded medium.

Actually, the classic 440hz of the key of "A" is the best range to use...

Or, one can use a tone generator to compare the two sound frequencies..to see if they're is any 'beat' between the two tones..and hope the turntable has adjustable speed to eliminate the 'beat' from between the frequencies.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 12-15-2006, 07:35 PM:

I was thinking of using the keyboard. Say I know that a certain note in the Rhapsody in Blue is your A that you mention, I'll go to the keyboard and compare them. I'd play that not, over and over, tweaking the speed to make the tone match. It may not make it perfect, but live orchestra's aren't perfectly tuned either. I'd try a stoboscope, but with the surface nouse and all, it'd be hard to get a pure tone from the recording to tune with. So I'll just do it by ear.

Tune, that may have been the word I was serching for earlier, it'd have mady my previous comment about differences is speed shorter and easier to understand. [Roll Eyes]

I'll need to tune the audio files.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-30-2006, 01:12 PM:

Tuning: a-440 is not a universal standard. Europe is a-432 for example. Louis

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-30-2006, 06:43 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
...do the mic input from LP without using the RIAA preamp...sound is so horribly flat.

I would think since the RIAA recording curve attenuates the low freq up to about 20dB at 20 Hz and boosts the HF at 20kHZ about 20dB, that the playback without RIAA EQ would be VERY "bright" and not flat.

The purpose of the RIAA pre-emphasis curve is to limit the LF groove excursions to extend the recording time by taking up less vinyl real-estate, to allow better LF tracking, and to bury the HF noise to increase the S/N ratio.

The RIAA playback curve is the exact opposite (in a good preamp) of the recording curve so that the resulting playback is "FLAT".

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-31-2006, 03:34 AM:

Whoops, sorry on that Phil. Didn't mean "flat" as in the RIAA correction curve for the output circuit, but 'flat' as in so pallid of the sound output in what you said as in 'bright' since the actual recording curve is reversed so the needle doesn't have to track in extreme conditions, especially at low frequencies.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-31-2006, 06:41 AM:

quote: Phil Hill
I would think since the RIAA recording curve attenuates the low freq up to about 20dB at 20 Hz and boosts the HF at 20kHZ about 20dB, that the playback without RIAA EQ would be VERY "bright" and not flat.

I've never tried playing RIAA-equalised vinyl through a non-RIAA preamp (e.g. the mic input of a PC sound card), but that's exactly what I'd expect to happen, too - lots of HF, nowhere for the surface noise to hide and muddy, indistinct bass. By the same token, when you play a record with a less severe EQ curve to RIAA (e.g. a Blumlein or Westrex 78) through an RIAA preamp, you get loud, rumbling bass and a reduction in high-end surface noise, but at the expense of grossly amplified midrange surface noise (which means that records which had an abrasive agent added to the shellac mix in order to grind down steel needles to the groove seats, e.g. inter-war HMVs, sound absolutely horrid) and most of the HF signal being totally lost. On an orchestral track or a male singer it can sound OK, but piano solos or female singers played this way sound hideous.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-31-2006, 05:15 PM:

Ummmm, I think that's what I said, Monte.

Please re-read what I said for the reasons for the RIAA (and CCIR, and other curves as Leo pointed out in his post).

BTW, "bright" is a sound term and not an electical term.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-02-2007, 04:58 AM:

Dang, Phil - sorry to make a mess out of this.

Maybe, I'd just better start over and just simply say that when someone inputs the leads directly from a turntable to the mic input, that that output sounds like it's missing something real bad - just not at all normal.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 01-02-2007, 07:12 PM:

Is the RIAA correction part of the turntable itself? In it's electronics? Or in the phono input of the reciever?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-02-2007, 07:47 PM:

The 3rd one. Louis

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 01-02-2007, 07:52 PM:

Well, the first 2 were part of the same question, but that does help a bunch.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 01-02-2007, 09:44 PM:

Monte, just yankin' yur chain and givin' ya a ruff time bud. [Smile]

But thanks for the clarification of what you meant! [thumbsup]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-03-2007, 07:00 PM:

Perhaps this explanation will help out......

"RIAA equalization is a specification for the correct playback of vinyl records, established by the Recording Industry Association of America. The purpose of the equalization is to permit greater playback times, improve sound quality, and to limit the physical extremes that would otherwise arise from recording analogue records without such equalization.

The RIAA equalization curve has operated as a de facto global industry standard for the recording and playback of vinyl records since 1954. Prior to that time - mainly between 1940 and 1954 - each record company applied its own equalization; there were over 100 combinations of turnover and rolloff frequencies in use, the main ones being AES, LP, NAB and FFRR.

Before 1940, most records were cut flat, with a low-pass turnover of 6 dB/octave below 300 Hz to 800 Hz. This included broadcast recordings (transcriptions) and motion picture recordings before sound-on-film. If you play a pre-WWII 78rpm record through a modern preamp, you will effectively be playing it with a scratch filter whose cutoff begins at 2200 Hz, giving lack of high frequencies and muffled voices.

RIAA equalization is a form of preemphasis on recording, and deemphasis on playback. A record is cut with the low frequencies reduced and the high frequencies boosted, and on playback the opposite occurs. The result is a flat frequency response, but with noise such as hiss and clicks arising from the surface of the medium itself much attenuated. The other main benefit of the system is that low frequencies, which would otherwise cause the cutter to make large excursions when cutting a groove, are much reduced, so grooves are smaller and more can be fitted in a given surface area, yielding longer playback times. This also has the benefit of eliminating physical stresses on the playback stylus which might otherwise be hard to cope with, or cause unpleasant distortion.

A drawback of the system is that rumble from the playback turntable's drive mechanism is greatly amplified, which means that players have to be carefully designed to avoid this.

RIAA equalization is not a simple low-pass filter. It carefully defines transition points in three places - 75 µs, 318 µs and 3180 µs, which correspond to 2122 Hz, 500 Hz and 50 Hz. Implementing this characteristic is not especially difficult, but more involved than a simple linear amplifier. The phono input of most hi-fi amplifiers have this characteristic built-in, though it is omitted in many modern designs due to the gradual obsolescence of vinyl records. A solution in this case is to buy a special preamplifier which will adapt a magnetic cartridge to a standard line-level input, and implement the RIAA equalization curve separately. Some modern turntables feature built-in preamplification to the RIAA standard. Special preamps are also available for the various equalization curves used on pre-1954 records."

Some of you might also be interested in Norm Schneiders phono remastering equalizer that is available from Smart Devices

Mark

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 01-03-2007, 08:22 PM:

Yes, Mark, it was already posted on the first page or 2, but quite worthy of being reposed, as well are some of the other devices previously posted. I would "run out and grab one" immediatly, but I'm not paid much better than floor employees, yet.

Btw, on a side note. If I didn't mention it before. I withdrew my resignation, and am working things out. In fact, I just dropped my second job and came on full time at the theatre, though at an overall paycut. But hopefully I can get back on tack with my jedi training, and move up to "Sound Technitian" Hopfully, not being around those crashing pins constantly will restore the suffering part of my hearing.

I have gotten more parts to work on my laser turntable, maybe make it self guiding. For now, the laser actually "reads" the track, but the tone arm is still guided by the stylus. And for now, it's mono only, and suffers from cross talk, whcih better alginment, and a slef guiding head should help a bunch.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-13-2007, 04:25 PM:

There are some more 78s to download on my website, if anybody wants 'em...

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 01-25-2007, 08:29 PM:

I'm only getting the first n-th of a second of "To Make You Smile", "Stand to your post" sounds like its slowed, perhaps your friend was wrong. Or perhaps it was slowed down to accommodate the slideshow.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-26-2007, 03:18 AM:

quote:
I'm only getting the first n-th of a second of "To Make You Smile",

do the "right click, save target as" option..then try to open it on your local computer ....

I'll have to post some pics of some old 100 plus year old Black Label Columbias, before they became the Columbia Grafola Company... mint condition 78 single side platters .. from my collection ..

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 01-26-2007, 04:00 AM:

As a kid I remember my Dad having a 78 (he has many) of Jerry Lewis singing a song called 'Sunday Driving'.

Anyone have that?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-26-2007, 05:01 AM:

quote: John Wilson
As a kid I remember my Dad having a 78 (he has many) of Jerry Lewis singing a song called 'Sunday Driving'.

Anyone have that?

chek this Radio Station page out...- Monte

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-26-2007, 05:24 PM:

quote:
I'm only getting the first n-th of a second of "To Make You Smile",

If the other WMA files linked from that page play OK, I can only presume that it was a connection problem of some sort.

quote: Charles Greenlee
"Stand to your post" sounds like its slowed, perhaps your friend was wrong. Or perhaps it was slowed down to accommodate the slideshow.

That's what he told me. The singer's voice sounds like a strangled falsetto at 78, though, so I suspect that the "real time" speed of the actual recording is somewhere in between. I'd need to try and find a copy of the printed music to see what key it's in to find out. "To Make You Smile" is almost certainly a bit slow, but it makes it a lot easier to hear what he's saying.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 02-08-2007, 12:21 AM:

Yeah, but remember, the original piece may be in one key, but sometimes the tunes are transposed to a key appropriate for the performer. Still shouldn't be too hard to figure out. And yeah, the other file does it contiusously, only the first n-th. Even saved. May be the player. I'm using Winamp, cause "It really whips the llama's ass!" [Smile]

Sorry, flashbacks. Remind me later to tell you about my time in Nam. See, and that's why, as I said in the Family Guy thread, that I like FG. It's like watching my own mind, on TV.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-13-2007, 06:36 AM:

New record added - a WWII propaganda broadcast (here and scroll to the bottom or select from pulldown). I bought it from a junk shop (2 10" records - four sides total) in York yesterday, and it's now easily the cleanest 78 recording in my collection. It can't have been played more than once or twice (if at all), and both discs are still in their original sleeves! I didn't need to use any Adobe Audition click/pop removal on this (although I did wash the record in warm, boiled water with a little Fairy liquid to get 66 years' worth of dust and crud off it) - I just applied the Blumlein EQ curve to get the bass response right and Chebychev HF dropoff filter (cutoff 4k through order 9) to take out as much surface noise as is possible without encroaching on the signal, and that was it.

This was transferred at bang on 78rpm (checked with a stroboscope), but I suspect that it's a bit slow. From my memory of the film London Can Take It, the pitch of Reynolds' voice isn't that low, and four sides of 10" shouldn't run to almost 16 minutes (I think that the Postscript programme was a 15-minute slot, but need to look this up). There again, I've only ever seen the film on a PAL video transfer, which will have been increased from 24 to 25fps. When I get some more time I'm going to try speeding up this recording to match a total running time of 12-13 minutes (3 minutes per side).

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-14-2007, 03:13 AM:

(sadly, when I do the right click, save target as... the download is a 16k file.. - tried numerous times, but with the same results...)

Interesting, a HMV collection (from the days when the Gramophone Company was on the label even though it was owned by EMI) in stellar condition - that'd be a pretty penny in the collector's market...

..as we vinyl/shellac collectors would say..."Good find, and good luck in the next trip to thrift shops.."

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-14-2007, 03:34 AM:

Monte, try left clicking.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-14-2007, 03:37 AM:

Leo, when I click on the 'Audio files' link something strange happens; all of the files start playing together, and I have to go through and click the pause button on all of the others to hear the one that I want. This happens on Firefox and IE, on both PCs and Macs.

That's a very clear recording for a 78.

quote:
This was transferred at bang on 78rpm (checked with a stroboscope), but I suspect that it's a bit slow. From my memory of the film London Can Take It, the pitch of Reynolds' voice isn't that low, and four sides of 10" shouldn't run to almost 16 minutes (I think that the Postscript programme was a 15-minute slot, but need to look this up). There again, I've only ever seen the film on a PAL video transfer, which will have been increased from 24 to 25fps.

I've seen 'London Can Take It' on both video and film, and I agree; the pitch does sound a shade too low, but it's odd that I should hear it, as I never notice any pitch error on PAL transfers of 24 fps film. Maybe I'm just used to hearing a higher pitch, but notice a lower one.

Do you know anything about this recording? I assume that the script was written by the British Government, and Quentin Reynolds was just hired to speak it. It seems somewhat surprising that this was released as a record, it sounds more like a radio broadcast, but it does look like a normal record intended for sale to the public. I've never heard it before; historically interesting, and quite a find in that condition.

Edit:

I've just gone back and read your text again; it is a radio broadcast. Where did you get the details of the broadcast from; are they printed on the disk labels or sleeves, or did you manage to track them down elsewhere?

Was this also broadcast in the USA, I wonder? I would be interested to know how the Quentin Reynolds material was received by the public over there. I doubt that there is anybody on this forum who's old enough to remember, but you never know. There was considerable opposition at the time to America becoming involved in 'sobebody else's' war; if the public there recognised 'London Can Take It' for what it was, political propaganda, intended to influence American public opinion in favour or entering the War on Britain's side, then it could have exactly the opposite effect to that intended. It was quite a risky thing to do.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-14-2007, 03:50 PM:

quote: Stephen Furley
Leo, when I click on the 'Audio files' link something strange happens; all of the files start playing together, and I have to go through and click the pause button on all of the others to hear the one that I want. This happens on Firefox and IE, on both PCs and Macs.

I have to confess that I only checked that page on Firefox, and it didn't do that. I've just loaded it with IE7 and all the files started playing simultaneously for me, too. I tried to copy the line of code which embeds the Media Player controls from the page, but the forum blocked it. It includes the parameter , which, according to the page on Microsoft's website from whence I got it, is supposed to prevent the media player from autostarting when the page is loaded. Ironically, Firefox seems to obey the command, but Microsoft's own browser won't! I'll have to try and investigate what's going on when I get a moment, and if necessary just get rid of the embedded media players.

quote: Stephen Furley
Do you know anything about this recording? I assume that the script was written by the British Government, and Quentin Reynolds was just hired to speak it.

I doubt it - while the Ministry of Information did produce its own films and print advertising, it only censored broadcast and print journalism content - AFAIK MoI employees didn't actually write the scripts. Reynolds was hired to write the commentary for London Can Take It because he was American and a celebrity journalist, and I guess that a similar rationale would have applied to the Postscript broadcast.

I am also puzzled as to why it was released on record. The only thing I can think of is that it was done to raise money for war bonds, but you'd expect there to be some clue to that on the sleeve or label. The transmission date is printed on the label, which means that it should be reasonably straightforward to check back through newspapers etc. to try and find some contextualising information. The blurb I wrote on the website was mainly educated guessing based on the dates.

quote: Stephen Furley
There was considerable opposition at the time to America becoming involved in 'sobebody else's' war; if the public there recognised 'London Can Take It' for what it was, political propaganda, intended to influence American public opinion in favour or entering the War on Britain's side, then it could have exactly the opposite effect to that intended. It was quite a risky thing to do.

American public opinion was sharply polarised. On the one hand there was the 'America First' movement, led by Senator Gerald Nye, who argued that the US involvement in WWI caused unnecessary casualties and indirectly led to the great depression, and that Hitler could never pose a realistic threat to America. President Roosevelt supported intervention, partly in the belief that if the Nazis overran Europe and succeeded in destroying the British Empire, there was a real risk of them becoming a global superpower. So a lot of the British propaganda aimed at the US during the first two years of the war was a calculated attempt to boost the pro-intervention campaign and refute the arguments of the antis. Of course, Pearl Harbor put an instant end to that debate.