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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-05-2006, 03:44 AM:
 
I've seen it...and for the most part thought it was cool. Mike Schindler won't like it, though, since it contains a spinning-the-earth-back-in-time scene.

The premiere was held Nov. 2 at the Directors Guild in Hollywood. The DVD (and HD DVD and Blu-ray) is due on Nov. 28. There *might* be a handful of theatrical screenings.

To briefly summarize for those who may not be up on the film's history, director Richard Donner was fired during production and replaced by Richard Lester, who, in turn, re-shot much of Donner's footage as well as shooting all-new footage. Flash forward two and a half decades and Donner and producer/editor Michael Thau have tracked down the original footage and have reassembled the film as originally written and intended to be seen.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-05-2006, 10:37 PM:
 
Why was Donner canned in the middle of the 2nd movie? He did such a great job with the original. I just vaguely remember something about this back when the 2nd one came out in '80.

Did Salkind and Donner had disagreements or something, or just was it completely unrelated?

Granted, Lester was a heck of a director with the "Musketeers" movies released by FOX and "HELP" and "A Hard Day's Night" of the Beatles...

-Monte
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-08-2006, 06:26 PM:
 
From the DVD press release:

quote:

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"Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut" will delight fans who, for years, have been imploring Warner Home Video via voluminous numbers of petitions, letters, phone calls and e-mails to release the Donner cut. In fact, Donner had already shot most of the "Superman II" footage during [the production of] "Superman: The Movie." But as production on the sequel continued, creative differences between the director and the film's producers became irreconcilable and Donner left the project.

Although Richard Lester ["A Hard Day's Night," "The Three Musketeers"] was hired to finish production, he chose to make major changes to the film, leaving only vestiges of Donner's original vision and concepts in the version of "Superman II" that was ultimately released to theaters.

Now, nearly thirty years later, Warner Home Video is honored to grant the wishes of countless Superman fans. With this DVD release, Richard Donner has become the first director in history to be able to complete a film he left during production with nearly all his footage "in the can." Adding back a substantial amount of that unused footage, the director has seen his original vision restored and brought to fruition.

Most notably, the "Donner cut" restores the Marlon Brando role, filmed for, but not included in the final theatrical release version of "Superman II." The legendary Brando's performance as Jor-El has finally been restored in key scenes that amplify Superman lore and deepen the profound relationship between father and son.

With so many changes, large and small, including a variety of Lois Lane (Margot Kidder) schemes to unmask Clark Kent as Superman, this "Superman II" will prove to be an eye-opening experience and an important addition to film history.

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quote: Michael Coate

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Mike Schindler won't like it, though, since it contains a spinning-the-earth-back-in-time scene.

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Is that actually in there? Where's the pinch-the-bridge-of-your-nose-with-your-thumb- and-index-finger-and-shake-your-head-disapprovingly smiley?

Oh, Donner... His co-writer has gone on record saying that they're not gonna do that in the comic.

I'm intrigued by this cut. Does it actually work as a cohesive movie, or does it feel chopped together?

[ 11-26-2006, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-08-2006, 07:05 PM:
 
Yes, the spinning the earth thing is in the new cut. During the Q&A that followed the premiere screening, it was explained that as originally scripted the spinning the earth thing appeared only once and was used near the climax of what would become the second film.

SPOILER ALERT
Superman does the turning back time thing to wipe out Lois Lane's knowledge of Clark Kent being Superman. In the version we've all seen up to this point, you'll recall Superman takes care of this plot point with a kiss.

Does the new cut work? I think so. But to be certain I'll need to watch it again and then re-watch the theatrical cut and compare. I think it's definitely worth checking out just for curiosity. It was fascinating to see all "new' scenes as well as familiar scenes that featured alternate takes and/or different editing or music. Some of the visual effects, however, were downright horrible! What was very apparent was that films I and II were conceived as one big story. I'm not sure they could've gotten away with originally releasing a 4 to 4 1/2 hour movie, but the "Donner Cut" plays like a second half, whereas my recollection of the theatrical version of "II" is that it played like another movie entirely.

To follow up on Monte's questions, here's an excerpt from an old Los Angeles Times article. The article, published Dec. 7, 1980 and written by Roderick Mann, was primarily about Donner's then about-to-be-released film "Inside Moves" but included a great deal of material related to his Superman experience.

quote:

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“I went through a bad period after I finished directing ‘Superman,’” said Dick Donner. “I had terrible ill feelings about the business and the people in it. I felt I didn’t want to work again. Normally, I’m a fairly happy-go-lucky person, but my fights with the Salkinds had depressed me utterly.”

Donner, who was dismissed as director of “Superman 2” after his battles with the producers, Alex and Ilya Salkind and Pierre Spengler, learned recently that although much of Part 2 was shot in tandem with Part 1, his name would not be on the credits of the new film. Sole directing credit goes to Richard Lester, who took over the reigns after Donner was taken off the project.

Donner has now had a pivate screening of “Superman 2.” According to him much of the footage he shot for the second film has now been junked. Contractually, he says, he was entitled to director credit on Part 2, so this forms part of the multimillion-dollar lawsuit he has brought against the producers.

“I suppose I’d shot almost 80% of Part 2 while we were filming Part 1,” said Donner, drinking coffee in his office the other morning. “And frankly I felt Part 2 was even better than Part 1. For one thing, we were no longer burdened with the task of explaining the fable.

“But now they’ve cut out so much of what I shot, obviously to keep it below the amount which would have necessitated giving me screen credit. And Marlon (Brando) is out of the film altogether. That’s such an injustice to the man. After all it was his name which gave the project credibility to the investment community in the first place.”

According to Donner, it was six months before he was able to surface after the “Superman” experience.

“At least that. I became something of a hermit. I did a lot of drinking, winding up with hangovers. Remember, I’d put 2 ½ years of my life into ‘Superman,’ and that’s a long time when you get to be my age (50).

“So I felt hostile and angry. I had very little love left for anybody, and what I had I didn’t want to share. Coupled with that was the feeling of having been cheated. I’d hoped ‘Superman’ would prove to be my nest egg. Now these legal hassles with the Salkinds mean it will be years before I get my money.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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On the same day, (11/28) Warner is releasing a whole shitload of Superman DVDs

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quote: Chad Souder

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the villians lifting people in the air by pointing fingers at them and having some super-beam shoot out.

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quote: Mike Blakesley

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I don't think it was ever part of the Superman mythology.

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quote: Chad Souder

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is the scene gone where he goes back to the diner to seek revenge? What a bunch of crap.

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Nope, it's still there!

I kinda liked that scene. Sure, it's silly. But so is the whole movie. I think the scene works effectively since it "pays off" its earlier "set up" scene. I remember that scene getting a big, favorable reaction from the audience when I first saw the movie back in '81 and again a couple of weeks ago at the DGA screening.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-27-2006, 08:45 PM:
 
Yeah, that scene I liked.

My least favorite moment in the original II was the "super-kiss making Lois forget" scene.
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 11-27-2006, 09:01 PM:
 

 

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Posted by Chad Souder (Member # 343) on 11-28-2006, 01:20 PM:
 
The reason I hated the revenge scene was that Superman would never, ever stoop to the level of petty revenge. He knew he was the shit but he acted without ego. Having him go back to tell off a bully makes him, well, human!
 

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Posted by Pravin Ratnam (Member # 1417) on 11-30-2006, 08:55 AM:
 
The spinning the earth scene was the dumbest scene in Superman 1. And now, they restore that dumbass scene in part 2?

Then again, the only thing dumber than that was the kiss. So if that means the kiss scene is going to go away, so be it.

I was not even a teen when I saw both movies, and even at that time, I felt like my intelligence was being bitchslapped by the filmmakers by making me endure those two scenes.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-30-2006, 12:20 PM:
 
I listened to the commentary and watched the documentaries on the DVD.

Apparently, the spinning-the-earth scene was originally intended to be used as the end of II. But, release date for Part I was looming and they didn't have an ending for it figured out, so they just decided to use the spinning earth to end that film, and then figure out an ending for part II later. (As we all know, both movies were shot at the same time.)

Then, Richard Donner was taken off the project so he never got a chance to "come up with" a new ending for II, so for this cut he used his original ending.

The original concept was that the two films were all one big story..

Donner now ought to re-cut the whole thing into one 4-hour movie with one ending.
 

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Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 01-22-2007, 03:49 PM:
 
I finally saw this thing. It's interesting as a historical curiosity, but it's still a bad movie. Maybe not as bad as Lester's version, but what is?

SPOILERS:

The spinning back time thing is handled better cinematographically speaking, but storywise, the implications are really kind of shady. That's a really abusive use of his powers, and a huge betrayal of not only Lois, but the planet on a whole.

Also, there's no reason for that ending to be there. The movie would have worked way better if it had just ended 5 minutes earlier. The characters would have developed quite a bit, and things would be in an interesting place for SUPERMAN III. Instead, the clock is reset (literally), and all of the events in the movie may as well not have happened in the first place. The best part is, if they had left out that last scene, it would almost perfectly work with SUPERMAN RETURNS continuity.

The way the time travel is presented in this film implies that the world works kind of like a videotape. It can be rewound back to the beginning and restarted. It even has the equivalent of tape degradation, with people vaguely recalling what came before. Of course, why events play out differently with no apparent change in variables doesn't make sense, and why things in that diner didn't change makes no sense either. It would also shatter the minds of astronomers when they see all sorts of seemingly constant cosmic variables out of place.

So yeah, the movie's slightly less dumb than it was before, but it's still pretty dumb.
 

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Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 01-22-2007, 04:52 PM:
 
Although it appears that way, I never thought that Superman was actually "spinning the earth" backwards to reverse time. His flying around the world was so fast (thinking speed of light as Einstein speculated and Dustin mentioned--two great minds!) that time was going backwards; it's visual manifestation was the appearance that the world was actually reversing its spin. It wasn't that the earth was isolated in this time-shift, everything was similarly affected.

We just had a discussion of time-travel in the movies at work this morning. Yeah, it was slow today. And it never seems to be accomplished without causing a host of story problems specific to the method of time-travel. As Austin Powers said, "There, I've gone cross-eyed."

Okay, maybe it's a shitty story device to get out of plot hole. It never bothered me all that much (the effect kinda looked neat-o) until I read this thread. The nits that I have to pick with the movie involve that big cellophane "S" and that kid near the beginning in that small town (near planet "Houston"?) with what sounds like a British accent(?). "Please put my Daddy down!"

I took my nephew to see this when it was in the theater. He totally bought it, and call me corny, but I got goosebumps when Supe-baby flew the American flag back to the White House. I'd like to see the new-old version sometime soon.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-22-2007, 05:51 PM:
 
Hillary: The two "nits" that you mention are not in the Donner cut, so you should love it!
 

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Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 01-22-2007, 07:31 PM:
 
Thanks Mike! That's very encouraging.
 

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Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 01-22-2007, 09:04 PM:
 
The problem with the way spinning the earth is portrayed... you see Superman put the world in reverse and then spin it back the other direction to make it go forward again. If he were simply going super fast to make himself travel back in time, then there would be no reason to restart the earth this way. So... yeah. Totally dopey. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet...

http://www.howitshouldhaveended.com/Divx%20links/Superman.html

...It's the way Superman should have ended. I think it's much better than the ending of any real Superman movie.
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 01-22-2007, 10:48 PM:
 
I don't care about spoilers now that the DVD has been out for a couple of months...

quote:

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Hillary: The two "nits" that you mention are not in the Donner cut, so you should love it!

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quote: Hillary Charles

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Thanks Mike! That's very encouraging.

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Yeah, but Hillary's "goosebumps" scene is also not present in the Donner cut. So maybe she won't like the Donner cut after all. (The flag-flying and roof re-installing scene — with the lame freeze-frame water fountain — was one of the bogus newly-written scenes to help get Lester sole director credit.)
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-23-2007, 01:35 AM:
 
Maybe she'll get goosebumps at the restored Brando footage!
 

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Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 01-23-2007, 04:33 PM:
 
OH NOW I AM SO CONFLICTED!!!!

Yeah, it might be worth watching for Brando before he had TOO many pies, but his Scotchlite suit doesn't do anything for me.

OMG Michael, I had forgotten all about the freeze-frame fountain! Wasn't that frozen because Superman stopped time...?

I guess I'll just have to put together my own cut.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 01-24-2007, 11:19 AM:
 
Where's the Phantom Editor when we need him?
 

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Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 02-12-2007, 03:07 AM:
 
The Lester Superman II just looks hacked together now that I've seen the Donner Superman II. And this is true even though the Donner cut has also been hacked-together. The editing on the old one is decidedly clunkier than the original, as it had to meet the mandated 50% of screen time for Lester. Some bad scenes were allowed to drag on, and good scenes cut down to establishing shots. Even though Donner apparently insisted on cutting out as much Lester footage as possible, this doesn't add nearly as much choppiness to the editing since Donner had shot so much of Superman II to start with.

I wouldn't worry about the ending. Someday, a decade or two from now, some fan will put together a totally digital-model ending with the original actor's synthesizes voices. It was unexpected that Warners paid for the new cut to begin with, they clearly weren't going to spend oodles of money to make it perfect.
 

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Posted by Oliver Harper (Member # 4245) on 04-24-2007, 05:44 AM:
 
Im working on a recut of Superman IV!..yeah i know its a bad film but with the new material been released on the dvd even though its in a bad state the film works alot better with it added together.

Im working with a proffesional on this, so hopefully get the film colour corrected and the effects cleaned up.
 

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Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 04-24-2007, 12:02 PM:
 
I started to watch this yesterday and stopped after the opening credits. Were those new CGI effects of the mirror floating and exploding in space and freeing the 3 bad guys? Gag. Also, the opening was rather sloppily edited in a montage I thought, I dont know if it was that way in the original version as it's been ages since I've seen it.
 

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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 04-26-2007, 03:51 AM:
 
Dude, it gets better. And it helps if you give yourself a refresher viewing of the "original" version before you commit to "The Richard Donner Cut."

Those were newly-produced CGI effects made to look circa late-70s/early-80s. And, yes, I agree they looked like shit. (There were giggles and gasps during the premiere at the Directors Guild last fall.)

The opening credit sequence is new. (There was a montage of footage from the first movie in the Lester cut, too, but it was handled differently.) Many of the credits are new to the Donner Cut, such as, obviously, credits for Donner, but also credits for Marlon Brando. Also, regarding the music score, Ken Thorne's name has been removed from the opening and replaced with a credit for John Williams, even though the "new" music was cribbed from the first movie.
 

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Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 04-26-2007, 10:58 AM:
 
You got a point, I should probably watch the original first as a refresher... I think it's been something like 15 years since I've seen any of them, save for a few minutes here and there on TBS occasionally.
 

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