Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: OK...DLP, D-ILA, SXRD...now I'm really confused.

This is topic OK...DLP, D-ILA, SXRD...now I'm really confused. in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-10-2007, 11:09 PM:

So just when I thought DLP was pretty much the direction I was going in as the day quickly approaches when I will have to say goodbye to my still working, still giving decent pictures, Advent Videobeam CRT projector -- circa 1975, Model 1000 -- and plunge into the world of hi-def digital, here comes this avalanch of new alphabet soup technologies, each being raved about by their proponents.

Does anyone here have some knowledge about these two technologies -- D-ILA, SXRD -- pros, cons? I need that inside stuff that people in the know always just whisper about....like, yah it looks good out of the box, but the silicon mirrors (or whatever they are) fade after a year. Like the secrets that we already know about LCD...like that screendoor you get smacked across the face and the lines imbed in the corneas of your eyeballs.

And then there's DLP's crappy little mechanical spinning wheel that 1) can easily wear out and fly apart into a million pieces and 2) anytime there is fast motion, causes the horrid fringing thing that makes snot backup and fly out your ears; you know....those kinds a things that Sony and JVC don't put in the SPECIFICATIONS box on their websites.

JVC's D-ILA (I keep hearing Tom Jones singing "Why, oh why, Delila) claim to fame is the great color space and gamma correction and the fact they don't have to use an iris to cheat to get a high contrast ratio. They say it's REAL contrast numbers, but, hey, 30,000:1?....you believe that and I'll sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

Of course Sony DOES have an iris, but they claim it HELPS them get superb color with SXRD. I am stumped; I need you guys who know the dirty little secrets of this new stuff to spill the beans.

I guess I am going to have to find a showroom somewhere where I can see these technologies demo-ed side by side for myself.

[ 12-11-2007, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-11-2007, 07:01 AM:

My understanding is that D-ILA, SXRD, and LCOS are all basically the same thing. The contrast ratio is worse than DLP and LCD, but the is no "screen-door" effect. The individual pixels aren't visible even if you walk right up to the screen. The iris thing seems like a gimmick to me and doesn't really improve anything.

We all know what DLP is and the limitations of the single-chip variety: excellent contrast ratio and "film-like" image. Probably not the best choice for computer presentations. Single-chip has problems with "rainbows" in fast-moving scenes.

LCD has the worst issues with the "screen door" effect and the image tends to look "electronic," but the latest models are much improved and probably a good choice. These are preferred for computer use.

Basically, they all have limitations, so you need to see examples of each in your price range.

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-11-2007, 07:41 AM:

I'm probably going with Samsungs xx71 or xx81 line of LCD TV's. The 81 series apparently uses an LED light source for its panel, thus costing about $1000 more than the xx71 series. I have no clue what you want to spend, but a 52" xx71 series TV will run about $2700. It is 120hz and 1080p/24fps capable. 52" model is LNT5271. The xbr5 series of Sony runs a little higher with no increase in picture quality. In fact, I believe the Samsung is rated higher. I'm not sure if thats anything your interested in, but for the best picture, the 71 series is the best bang for the buck. BTW, the 71 series boasts 25000:1 contrast and the 81 series (due to its LED light LCD) boasts 50000:1. You probably couldn't tell the difference, but I can tell you that the 71 series has a FANTASTIC black level.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-11-2007, 08:35 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
So just when I thought DLP was pretty much the direction I was going in as the day quickly approaches when I will have to say goodbye to my still working, still giving decent pictures, Advent Videobeam CRT projector -- circa 1975, Model 1000

I was at the very first Advent training school way back in 1973 for that TV set. It to this day is still an amazing set and the 1000 was superior to the 1000A.... the 1000 had the Schmidt type CRT's that cost a bundle to manufacture. If my memory serves me I think the Advent CRT's were made by Clinton Electronics near Rockford IL. The tuners actually had a real 4.5mhz bandwidth... something no tuner of today even has. You should find a worthy museum and donate it to them... such as the Television Museum in Ohio or are they in Indiana....

quote: Frank Dubrois
The 81 series apparently uses an LED light source for its panel, thus costing about $1000 more than the xx71 series.

Frank,,
LED's fade out over time... around 75K to 100K hours MTF on them in most instances. I can't imagine what replacing all those LED's will cost. The special lamps used to light most LCD screens actually have a longer MTF and are easily replacable!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-11-2007, 03:23 PM:

This might be the wrong thread for this question, but...should a person even buy a TV now or would it be better to wait until the digital ball drops in 2009?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-11-2007, 05:07 PM:

Its ok to buy one however be sure that its got an HD tuner built in. Although that has been mandated and manufacturers seem good at following through with that policy there may be a few left on the cheap out there that don't. I also doubt that there are many if any larger CRT sets left. I haven't seen one around this town in some time.

Best word of advice is buy a name brand set like Samsung, Sharp or Sony.... getting off brand sets like Vizio and Olevia, or Poloroid repaired is a pain you don't want to experience. It took me three months to get my Olevia replaced under warranty when the tuner failed. They followed through but it took forever... just to note they did pay shipping both ways which would have been pretty expensive. Or simply get the replacement policy when you purchase the set.

Mark

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-11-2007, 05:53 PM:

As Scott mentioned above, Sony's SXRD and JVC's D-ILA are just their brandnames for LCOS. It's a reflective LCD technology as opposed to transmissive and the black levels can look pretty good. I'm hoping to score on an SXRD projector for my on-going J-film culture presentations sometime soon.

As also mentioned above, you'll only need to worry about DLP and color wheels (and their sometimes visible rainbow effects) when looking at a single-DLP device. The better DLP machines use three imagers and thus have no need for color wheels.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-11-2007, 07:21 PM:

One would tend to think that Sony's DILA rear screen sets also use one imaging chip and a color wheel... never investigated that... does anyone know? There is alos the $100.00+ lamp that needs relacement every so many hours to consider with these sets as well.

Mark

Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-11-2007, 07:53 PM:

quote:
The special lamps used to light most LCD screens actually have a longer MTF and are easily replacable!

Well, that may be so, but the advantages to LED are the enhanced black level and a more even light disbursement. You don't get the lighted edges like you do with a standard LCD panel. 100k hours would probably be ok with me. I was told that if/when the LED's go out, a board with the LED's on it gets replaced, so although it may cost more than a blub replacement, it isn't as bad as you think.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-11-2007, 10:19 PM:

SXRD is a 3-chip system. No stinkin' color wheels! At least that's what wikipedia says about LCoS/SXRD/D-ILA.

Of the rear projection sets, SXRD still looks the best to me.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-11-2007, 11:59 PM:

Right now anything with "DLP" on it is highly suspect in terms of HDTV monitors. That screwy "wobbulation" bullshit to fake a 1080p image by vibrating a CHEAP half-rez half-baked con job DLP chip is only something to absolutely avoid. Texas Instruments needs to have its collective head examined for taking part in that lunacy. A single chip, rainbow artifact infected DLP TV is already bad enough. It is an insult to expect people to buy into that crap with a wobbulated FAKED 1920 X 1080 pixel HDTV with only HALF THE NATIVE PIXEL COUNT. No Sale! Get rid of that shit, you boardroom businessmen assholes.

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 12-12-2007, 02:03 AM:

Geez Bobby, tell us how you really feel! [Wink]

David is correct, AFAIK, there is no single chip version of LCOS (sxrd or d-ila). Single chip DLP is inferior and should be avoided.

Anything but a true native 1080P projector or TV is a sham, and gives consumers a bad impression of what High Definition has to offer. I've seen many "1080P" projectors for sale for cheap, but if you look at the fine print, it is simply a 1024x768 native chip with built in scaling.

Really, the only notable downside to LCOS is that it doesn't reflect as much light as DLP. Therefore contrast and overall picture brightness are affected. Heat is also an issue with these chips due to the fact that they absorb more light and heat than DMD chips. I think this is the reason that current Sony cinema projectors are not able to achieve the same levels of light as their DLP counterparts. I'm sure they could add larger lamps and send more light to the chips, but this may result in unreliable operation and a higher failure rate.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-12-2007, 07:11 AM:

I apologize for the harsh tone, but honestly I think a lot of people buying certain kinds of DLP TVs are really getting screwed.

Several months ago I looked closely at a rather large Samsung DLP TV that seemed to have a pretty attractive price. It had "1080P" in bold letters placed on Samsung's sales tag for the TV set. But when reading the fine print, it turned out the television's DLP chip did not have native 1920 X 1080 resolution. The chip was merely 960 X 1080. On top of it having to deal with a color wheel, the chip was also vibrated thousands of times per second to simulate a 1080p image. To me, that sounds strangely like someone delivering a 1080i image and trying to claim it is 1080p. On top of that, the combination of a spinning color wheel and chip vibrating faster than Air Force Annie's dildo makes me concerned something will break in that TV set in a very short amount of time.

I think some of the newest LCD-based TVs are pretty impressive. The black levels and viewing angles have improved a great deal. Some support 120Hz refresh rates and are finally delivering decent support for personal computer connections.

Posted by Steven J Hart (Member # 2340) on 12-12-2007, 07:23 AM:

I just purchased a samsung hl-T6187 rear projection DLP. This set uses the LED light engine with no color wheel. Black levels are fantastic, and I'm real happy with the picture. Even if the LED's do fade out over time, I've got the brightness set at about 40% so there is a long ways to go to increase the brightness as the LED's fade. I went with this TV mostly because of the LED's - No rainbow effect from a spinning color wheel, and no expensive lamp replacement every couple years.
Steve

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-12-2007, 09:07 AM:

The cost of LCoS is inherently less expensive than DLP (about 1/3 as much) so it can normally price out using 3-chip at similar pricing as single-chip DLP. And that is the realities of DLP's future. There is nothing TI can do to get that price down to alternative technology levels, setting image quality aside. Technology marches on for all of the other players too so even if economy of scale helps the DLP price, it also helps LCoS and LCD.

So, what TI has been doing is what they fell they have to in order to keep DLP in the game. That is, field-sequential (color wheel) as wobulation in order to cheapen the DLP portion of the cost. The problem TI is now facing is that the time is up on rear-screen projection TVs for the consumer. They are fast becoming an insignificant portion of the TV market. That was the biggest sales avenue for the DLP and it is closing down fast. It will be interesting to see where DLP is in a year or two...I strongly suspect it will be in a bad way or at least stagnating with little or no future development.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-12-2007, 02:08 PM:

The prices of large, flat panel displays (bigger than 50") have definitely come way down in price compared to levels from just a couple years ago.

When I finally buy a HDTV set (probably this Spring) I'm very likely going to get some kind of LCD TV. The Sony Bravia and Sharp Aquos models look pretty good. Originally I had intentions of getting a larger rear projection TV. Not anymore. LCD performance in general has improved a lot. Viewing angles are better. The images are brighter and sharper looking than the rear projection TVs. And they don't have the cabinet depth and weight of a refrigerator.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-12-2007, 04:00 PM:

A couple months ago I comparison-shopped flat-panel LCD sets, primarily the Sharp Aquos and Sony Bravia. The Sharp did not impress me. It seemed like it had no grayscale, like things were either dark or light but little in between. And by "dark" I mean dark gray, not black. I diddled around with the screen controls and could not get it to display an image I would be satisfied with.

The Sony Bravia LCD seemed *much* better to my eyes. Very good blacks, no loss of subtle gradations in dark areas.

RPTV is a relative bargain nowadays for larger screen sizes, but they're clearly on the way out.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-12-2007, 05:26 PM:

Ya can't judge any tv's in a store that is not properly set up to display them. There exists a standard for TV viewing areas... grey back wall with so many candellas of indirect lighting on it. Few stores excepting high end audio/video places are ever set up this way... When you find a place that has this its amazing what it does for viewing different tv's.

Mark

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 12-12-2007, 06:19 PM:

Also don't forget if your looking at LCD models the Response time factor of the set.

Posted by Steven J Hart (Member # 2340) on 12-13-2007, 07:45 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
And they don't have the cabinet depth and weight of a refrigerator

You are right about the cabinet depth, but not the weight. A Samsung 61 inch dlp projection weighs about 75 lbs while a sony bravia 52" LCD weighs in at 108 lbs. Plasmas are really heavy. I just helped my freind install a Panasonic 58" plasma which weighed a whopping 141 lbs un-boxed! If you plan to hang one of these suckers on the wall you must be very secure with your mounting.
Steve

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-13-2007, 01:19 PM:

I plan to get one of those entertainment stands with the steel pylon running up the back of it to hold a flat panel TV. Even if the TV weighed only 50 pounds I still wouldn't want to mount it into the wall unless I was absolutely sure I was anchoring it into studs.