This is topic Cheap DVD Players - Be Careful Buying One in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-15-2007, 08:00 PM:
I had a nice little adventure today. I had to buy a DVD player to replace the $250 Pioneer 5-disc carousel DVD player I purchased back in 2001, which replaced the $400 Sony DVD player I purchased in 1999.
My Pioneer DVD player picked a fine time to die on me. I'm probably going to get a dual format Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player in just a few months to go with the HDTV setup I'm going to be buying fairly soon. Any new DVD player purchase at this point just seems like a waste of money.
So, I naturally wanted to save some money on this replacement DVD player purchase.
There's quite a few DVD players available in stores for really low prices. Many of these players are from reputable brand names. And these cheap DVD players have some pretty interesting features. But they're also dropping out a lot of features too.
Wal-Mart was the first place I visited. They had the Phillips DVP 3960 DVD player on sale for just $39. I took a quick look at the back panel. No optical audio output, but coaxial instead. That'll work. So I took one home. My mistake. Didn't look hard enough. This player didn't have S-Video output. HDMI output is great, but I don't have a HDTV set yet or even a receiver that can handle HDMI sources either. Wal-Mart gave me a refund.
I went to Sears. They also had the $39 Phillips DVD player and several other cheap DVD players (including one for only $24). Many lacked S-Video and optical audio outputs.
Then I saw an interesting DVD player from RCA, the DRC285 model. This one had all the outputs I needed. It played lots of different kinds of media. It even had a USB 2.0 jack on the front panel for connection with digital cameras and computers. Pretty neat for $59. I bought one and took it home.
Thankfully, I was smart enough to read through the user manual for the RCA DRC285 DVD player before unpacking the player itself. In reading through the details of setting up the player for different audio formats I discovered something disturbing: this fucker doesn't support DTS output! WTF!?
I taped up the RCA DVD player box and got ready to take it back to Sears. While carrying the DVD player to my truck I realized I had no truck keys. And I realized I had just locked myself out of my house. Arrgh!
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
10 minutes later, after breaking into my own house using a secret trick I will not describe, I was back at Sears getting a refund on the RCA player and looking more carefully at the others.
None of the remaining DVD players were perfect, but the one that fit the bill best pissed me off for the brand name: Sony.
I have not forgotten the anger and frustration I experienced with my first DVD player, a Sony DVP-S530D. It worked great the first year. Then it started developing the dreaded Sony lip sync error. Then the damned thing started freezing up on various discs. Criterion's version of The Rock would lock up that player at the layer change. You couldn't even turn off the power. The plug had to be pulled out of the socket! It was that bad.
So I'm looking hard at the Sony DVP-NS77H. $99. Little more expensive than the other single disc DVD players. I really wanted to like the $79 Samsung DVD player nearby. But in comparing "forward looking" features, the Sony unit won out.
The deciding factor was the HDMI output. The Samsung DVD player upscaled to 720p or 1080i. The Sony upscales to 1080p. On top of that, it has some unique "Bravia Theater Sync" feature that gives it some advantages with Sony's Bravia line of HDTVs. Right now, the most likely HDTV I'm going to buy is Sony's 52" XBR4 Bravia model.
Anyway, I brought the player home and got it hooked up with my Yamaha receiver. The player works well. Nothing to complain about on picture quality. My only complaint is that it's a bit on the slow side in loading movies and taking commands from the remote. But I can live with that for several months until I move up to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2007, 08:38 PM:
Personally, I'd be too embarrased to admit to this story... I can't help thinking I paid only 99.00 for my 2nd HD-DVD player. Upscaling a regular DVD to 1080P over 1080i has no merit... in fact 720P might be a better place to upscale NTSC to. Going to 1080P you'll only see any noise generated by the upscaling much clearer.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-15-2007, 08:53 PM:
My Pioneer DVD player was still working when the Toshiba HD-A2 was only $99. Had I been in a pinch then I might have bought one of those Toshiba units as a replacement. Still, that model only output 1080i -not exactly something I want in a HD movie disc player. I'd end up replacing it with another player with HD-DVD capability. Not much of an advantage over having to buy that Sony player.
I do agree $99 is a little expensive relatively speaking for a single disc DVD player. I'm guessing some of the extra cost has to do with the HDMI 1.3 output that that Bravia Theater Sync hoopla.
The HD-A3 Model is priced as low as $169, but it doesn't do 1080p (at least not without a firmware upgrade) and it did away with the S-Video output that was built into the older A2 model. The S-Video thing is a must-have item with my current setup. When I get a new receiver I can switch everything over to HDMI.
On the subject of upscaling, I'm going to try a few different options once I buy my HDTV set. Re-sampling a 480p image all the way up to 1080p does seem a little extreme. It makes me think of how shitty low resolution bitmap art looks when it has been artificially resized larger in Adobe Photoshop. The Sony Bravia XBR series TV and other LCD TVs I have been reading about have lots of upscaling options of their own. Between the DVD player and HDTV I'm sure some kind of decent balance can be met. But it sure won't compare to native 1080p HD video content.
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 12-15-2007, 09:38 PM:
I hear you. It seems that the manufacturers of regular (SD) DVD players have pretty much given up trying to offer quality. Pioneer and Sony (perhaps Panasonic) are still making units that are sort of adequate, but nowhere near the level of quality they were when DVD was a newer format.
Of course, they are no longer $400 either, so this part is understandable. Likewise, one expects prices on consumer electronics to drop over time, and basic economics dictates that there's going to be a price/quality quotient at work.
The problem comes when the customer is willing to pay a little more to obtain a quality DVD player: they will discover that this area of the market is no longer being catered for. Yes, companies like Denon offer no-compromise decks, but these sell at prices that are comparable to HD decks, making their existence somewhat irrelevant. So it boils down to uber-cheap or uber-expensive with nothing in between.
I find it surreal that DVD players are now selling for prices like $39. To me, there's something weird about that idea, especially when that's the same amount of money that 2 CDs would cost. There's something profoundly out of whack about this! It could be argued that CDs are too expensive, but for the life of me I cannot understand how or why DVD players became this cheap or why they needed to. After all, VHS was a huge success without dropping the price of decks to this level, so why was it necessary to go this low?
Also, you know things have gone too far when features such as s-video output and DTS have been dropped - crazy!
It's interesting that you mentioned the DVP-S530D. I had (note the past-tense) two of these in my video store. Yes, I also experienced the complete lock-up that could only be resolved by pulling the A/C plug! Also, it did have some firmware issues: it would not even load 'Into The Blue' at all (ironically, a Sony title!) or would choke on various other discs.
Both machines were in constant use between 10am and 11pm 7 days a week. Interestingly, one of them lasted more than twice as long as the other. The one that went the distance would repeat play the same disc - sometimes for days - before changing the movie. When this machine eventually died and had to be replaced, I went into the service menu and looked at the number of laser hours: the machine had clocked up 17,000 hours on the laser! This is highly unusual and I chalk it up to being a freak incident. There's no way that the average consumer player would last that long (and the other one certainly didn't). One of them has been replaced with a Pioneer, the other with a Sony. These will do until I upgrade them to HD.
I hope that HD players don't get to the point that one cannot buy a quality player even if one wants to. I grossly dislike the idea of a society where the only thing that's important is to be able to pay the lowest possible price for everything. Don't get me wrong, competition in business is healthy and necessary, but I wish that more people would focus on quality rather than just price, so that the competition would be on overall value for money rather than just cutting prices to the bone. The latter just creates a vicious circle which can only lead in one direction...and it isn't pretty.
My hope is that people will start to make the connection between price, quality and service and how you cannot have all three at once, and that people will understand that a society based only on being tight with money really isn't healthy or sustainable.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2007, 09:40 PM:
I think I woulda gone the 169.00 for the HD player.... I think you do still get 5 free disks as well and thats worth just over a hundred bucks if you price the disks at the lowest retail pricing and there are some really good titles... Casablanca among them. I agree the 1080i is ultimately limiting but even 169.00 and 5 free disks makes it a very worthwhile player especially since you will eventually have a better player to make full use of the HD disks. The CD end of things is also quite superb and surpasses my Pioneer Elite SACD player for Legacy CD's by a wide margin, so if you're after a decent music player only its a good deal.
The firmware upgrade on the Toshibas is simple.... either call them and they send you a DVD with the new firmware for free or connect the machine directly to the internet and it automatically locates the server and does the upgrade on its own... takes about 45 min... that is its automatic after you make the appropriate IP settings in the machine's menu for your type of internet service.
quote: Michael Barry
and that people will understand that a society based only on being tight with money really isn't healthy or sustainable.
My favorite Presidential quote (McKinley)....
“I do not prize the word "cheap." It is not a badge of honor. It is a symbol of despair. Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country.”
Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 12-16-2007, 12:14 AM:
Here in Australia, HD DVD's players price starts at A$595 with a bonus cash back of $100 and a few movies. Blu ray starts at $630 with some titles. We still havn't seen the $99 specials yet.
A$0.90 = US$1 at the moment
I'm personally waiting for the price to drop!
I have a $34 dvd player that features progressive scan (576p) component, s video, composite and 5.1 rca out, optical and co ax .
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-16-2007, 12:43 AM:
Maybe I'm missing something but if the complaint is because of your experience in the past where your Sony died just over a year after you got it... won't that be a moot point since you're getting a dual hd-dvd/blu-ray in a few months? That'll completely replace the dvd player plus add the hd content so even if it was gonna break a year from now you wouldn't be using it to find out.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-16-2007, 02:26 AM:
quote: Michael Barry
Pioneer and Sony (perhaps Panasonic) are still making units that are sort of adequate, but nowhere near the level of quality they were when DVD was a newer format.
Well, I hope this Sony player I just bought is better than the "lemon" I bought back in 1999. They really screwed up with most of that series of DVD players. My parents have the 5-disc 630D from that same series of 1999 players. Strangely it didn't seem to be affected by the same glitches that plagued the single disc models. That player still works, even though it is now attached to a smaller CRT TV in my parents' bedroom. Their primary DVD player is a Denon 5-disc model hooked up to a large Mitsubishi rear projection HDTV.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I think I woulda gone the 169.00 for the HD player....
That player doesn't have a S-video output. That's a deal breaker. What good will 5 free HD-DVD discs do for me when I don't even have a HDTV yet?
What I needed was a DVD player that worked with my current standard definition setup. If Toshiba had retained the S-Video feature in the HD-A3 so it could have worked properly with my current gear as a standard DVD player then I may have considered buying one.
Electronics manufacturers will do away with legacy signal output standards at their peril. This goes for HD-quality disc players. It goes double for standard DVD players. I find it amazing they'll stick HDMI into so many DVD players and then deliberately remove other output standards like optical audio output, DTS output and S-Video output. Not everyone has a HDTV yet. I'll bet far fewer have audio video receivers with HDMI switching.
What I went through Saturday afternoon is a good illustration of how the electronics industry is shooting itself in the foot. There's the whole HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray drama. And now we have the bean counters fucking up elementary functions in standard DVD players just so they can manage to sell the players for really low prices and still save a buck. It's retarded.
quote: Chris Slycord
Maybe I'm missing something but if the complaint is because of your experience in the past where your Sony died just over a year after you got it... won't that be a moot point since you're getting a dual hd-dvd/blu-ray in a few months?
Some of it is a matter of principal. I'm not going to throw away the DVD player. Just like I'm not going to put my 32" RCA CRT TV by the curb either. It still works just fine after 12 years of use. The DVD player is still going to have at least some use well after I move up to HDTV.
A lot of people develop a "love/hate" or mostly just "hate" relationship with Sony branded products. To me, the company seems to have been hit and miss with its products over the last couple of decades. Some of their televisions are awesome. I loved the Sony BetacamSP field camera I used when I worked for a TV station in Georgia. But I've heard plenty of complaints as well. And I was pretty sore over that S530D player. I couldn't help but feel a little dread in buying the NS77H. So far, it has worked just fine.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-16-2007, 07:18 AM:
News flash: cheap DVD players suck! Film (err...videotape) at 11!
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-16-2007, 10:32 AM:
quote: Bobby Henderson
They had the Phillips DVP 3960 DVD player on sale for just $39
quote: Bobby Henderson
Then I saw an interesting DVD player from RCA
quote: Bobby Henderson
I'm not going to put my 32" RCA CRT TV by the curb either.
Here's your problem (one of many I'm sure) YOU BUY CHEAP CRAP.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-16-2007, 12:04 PM:
Go piss up a rope, Frank.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-16-2007, 12:40 PM:
I totally get where you are coming from on this Bobby. The manufacturers will omit something from a unit that costs probably less than a buck to put on the machine, but they pull it anyway just to keep their price down.
Personally though in this specific example, I would've ditched the S-video and either bought a $30 cheapie to last me a few months or went the $169 HD route. The difference between S-video and composite with regular DVDs is so minimal it's just not worth futzing over in my opinion. (That is of course just my opinion though. Your mileage may vary.)
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-16-2007, 01:44 PM:
quote: Bobby Henderson
The DVD player is still going to have at least some use well after I move up to HDTV.
Why? The new player would be backwards compatible with DVD.
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 12-16-2007, 01:57 PM:
I own a Philips DVP-3960. I discussed this player over in the other thread (HD-DVD, BLU-RAY) over in the afterlife. The main reason this player works well for me is the following:
• DivX Ultra Home Theater Certified
DivX is video compression software which enables high quality video to be compressed into very small files then downloaded onto CD-R or CD-RW and played back with very little loss of quality.
• Multi-Format Player
Don't worry about limited playback capabilities, the DVP-3960 plays DVD-Audio/Video, DVD-R/W, DVD+R/W, CD, CD-R/W, SVCD, DivX, MP3, WMA-CD and JPEG.
Most of Philips DVD players have the DivX. All my video files that I deal with on the home front (family videos, home movies, etc.) are done in DivX.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-16-2007, 03:27 PM:
quote: Chris Slycord
Why? The new player would be backwards compatible with DVD.
Absolutely and you can still watch the free HD disks on a regular tv as well. I am pretty sure my HD-A2 has an S-Video output... I only use the HDMI jack and have never tried any of the others Yes, here is the list of jacks on the back of the HD-A2 off Toshiba's site...
HDMI™
Ethernet Port
ColorStream Pro® Component Video Output
RCA Video Outputs (1)
Extension Terminal (2)
2ch. Audio Output
Digital Optical Output
S-Video Output
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-16-2007, 03:52 PM:
Yes, the HD-A2 has a S-Video output. I stated that earlier. That player is also limited to 1080i output. It also costs a lot more than $99 now. Many stores are charging more for that than the HD-A3 (if they still even have any A2 models in stock). The HD-A3 can be firmware upgraded for 1080p output, but it doesn't have the S-Video output.
I don't want to have to fart around with switching my TV and receiver between S-Video and composite connections. I like my Yamaha receiver alright, but when you tell the thing to switch the video signal over to basic composite it also only wants to play basic analog L/R signals for that source as well. I'm not doing without DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1.
If the $39 Phillips DVD player had included a S-Video connection I would have kept it instead of taking it back to Wal-Mart.
The $59 RCA DVD player had the physical connections I wanted, but didn't support DTS Output. I took that back to Sears.
Functions like playing DivX videos, MP3s, JPEG slide shows and all that stuff are fine. But it's stupid for the same DVD player to add in all those things and drop fundamental signal connection standards. IMHO, any DVD player (and HD quality player) should have composite, component and S-Video connectors for video and optical and coaxial connectors for digital audio. Making a player less compatible is going to equal fewer customers.
I'm sure lots of people have to replace old DVD players that have crapped out on them. Not everyone has a brand new HDMI-connectible setup, or even one with component video connections either. Lots of people have systems where S-Video is their main connection standard. It only makes sense to maximize compatibility with existing systems.
With regard to the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players, I think more of these players would be getting sold if the companies making those players did a better job of supporting legacy DVD standards and actively marketing those items as a worthy standard DVD player replacement. They're not doing that right now.
quote: Chris Slycord
Why? The new player would be backwards compatible with DVD.
I can put the old CRT TV in another room and hook that DVD player up to it and a second satellite receiver. No need in throwing away both items if they both still work just fine.
Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 12-16-2007, 04:34 PM:
[QUOTE] Here's your problem (one of many I'm sure) YOU BUY CHEAP CRAP. [/QUOTE
Well Frank we wont go into your obvious problems but a five years ago cheap generic DVD players from china were more likely to play home burnt or disks produced by tv stations properly, than expensive brand name units!
Instead of freezing onscreen, some of the cheapest units would simply drop the frame and continue. I can tell you all that having a disk freeze, infront of 200-400 patrons, using an expensive brand name Pioneer player. Yet the same disk will play on a ONIX that cost 10% the price! AND NO BOX OFFICE REFUNDS (we tested over 12 different players)
Now what exactly are we paying for with a brand name?
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-16-2007, 09:35 PM:
Pioneer is crap too....unless you go Elite.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-16-2007, 10:23 PM:
If they're going to drop a video connection, drop composite! That connection is totally useless. They dropped RF. The world has no need for composite. Too bad s-video connectors kind of suck, though. A couple of years ago I went through hell trying to find an SDTV with s-video. It was all composite and component. I had to have s-video. Again, cut composite, not s-video! S-video should be the lowest common denominator. Remember, we're living here in the future now. Anyway I finally found a TV, and I hope it lasts forever because I doubt SDTV CRTs will be easy to come by.
BUT if you put up with composite for a few months to get by, just imagine how much more "WOW" factor that shiny new HD setup would have when you get it.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-16-2007, 11:02 PM:
quote: Frank Dubrois
Pioneer is crap too....unless you go Elite.
This proves you don't know shit about Pioneer. We have sold Pioneer stereo equipment at my day job since the 8-track days, 100% of my home audio setup is Pioneer, and all of my car stereos for the past 20 years have been Pioneer and I can count on one hand the number of "defective" units we have gotten back in any ten-year period. Pioneer is a quality line. Elite is just a fancier line for them (more feature-rich), like Technics used to be for Panasonic.
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-17-2007, 12:30 AM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
This proves you don't know shit about Pioneer
![[fu]](graemlins/fu.gif)
That actually proves that YOU don't know shit. Standard Pioneer amps and DVD players are C R A P!
quote: Mike Blakesley
Elite is just a fancier line for them
Here's where you prove that you know less than shit.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-17-2007, 01:09 AM:
My Pioneer DVD player rocks da hizzouse yo. My Pioneer receiver is good but it doesn't have any bass or treble controls unless it is in direct stereo. Also the analog pre-amps seem to clip whenever I turn on my Nintendo Wii (which isn't often). I've had great luck with past Pioneer stuff, though, and I would buy them again. They let me turn OFF the subwoofer for non-discrete modes unlike Sonys where it is always on or always off. Like I said elsewhere, Sony receivers suck.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-17-2007, 01:46 AM:
You feeling ok Frank?
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-17-2007, 02:26 AM:
Feeling fine.
[ 12-17-2007, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: Frank Dubrois ]
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-17-2007, 03:52 AM:
Cool....more Frank "opinions."
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-17-2007, 06:07 AM:
Pioneer has always been a quality product....when they worked. If they failed, you were screwed. I had one of the their very first Laserdick players. It worked beautifully....for six months, then it just stopped playing. I sent it for factory repair, first to an "authorized" factory service repair place. I should have known I was doomed when I saw they also repaired refridgerators. Surprise, they couldn't fix it. So I sent it to Pioneer's owned and operated central service repair, then in the swamps of NJ. They kept it for three months. They couldn't repair it. To say the least, I swore off Pioneer ever since, although I know it doesn't make scientific sense to make decisions on single experiences like that....but it sure is hard to ignore them.
How times have changed. For all you girly guys who are hemming and hawing over the cost of a $24 player vs. a $49 player and whether it has 10 outputs or 8....I bought my very first single disk Technics CD player which had nothing but Left and Right outputs and all the features of Play, Stop, Forward, Back, and Scan. I was THRILLED to get it on a big SALE!! at $850! Now than's MANLY purchasing!
BTW, does anyone still make large scale CD players -- didn't Sony make one that held like 200 CDs? I am finding I could use something like this more and more.
[ 12-17-2007, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-17-2007, 09:20 AM:
quote: Steve Guttag
Cool....more Frank "opinions."
Yes, make sure we remember the operative word there OPINIONS. Do you have an opinion to add? Seven paragraphs or less.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-17-2007, 09:33 AM:
Frank D, instead of just making stupid statements, why don't you back up your "opinion" on Pioneer with some facts and actual knowledge...like I did? How many thousand units of their products have you personally worked with since 1973?
Frank A. - too bad you didn't send your Laserdisk to All Electronics in Kalispell MT. They have handled all our repairs in electronics since around 1985 and I don't think we have ever had a "comeback" on one of their repair jobs. I agree it's hard to continue supporting a brand name after a bad experience with it...I had a Motorola VCR once that lasted about a year and I swore I'd never buy another Motorola anything, even though I know they make perfectly decent stuff.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-17-2007, 09:47 AM:
Yes Frank, but your "opinions" tend to make the "Opinions are like assholes..." come true...then again, that is just my opinion.
As to Pioneer...they have had their ups and downs throughout the years. In the 1970s they made very good bang for the buck equipment. You could always do better than Pioneer but they often had more watts or more features in any given price range. They had their dogs, for sure. The CT-F900 cassette deck, which started the whole Floroscan craze had a lot going for it but the drive mechanism in it were very prone to failure (weak springs and bad clutch design)...Very few of them didn't fail except maybe the last generation. However that design did give birth to the rest that followed and they did notably better...ending in the CT-F1250...which I put head to head with a Nak Dragon and the Pioneer came out on top (limiting to Dolby-B).
The other products during that time were also decent enough for the price...be it receivers, amps or their HPM line of speakers.
Pioneer then went through a very dark era where their stuff was complete crap...very plasticy green face plates and such. This stuff was utter garbage. They seemed to have come through that I don't see that green stuff for sale much even on eBay.
As to laserdiscs...I have had my collection of them...VP1000, CLD-900, CLD-D701 and the DVL-700.
My CLD-900 did have an issue early in its life and I did take it to an authorized Pioneer service center. It was repaired promptly and in warranty and worked for many years thereafter...infact, it really only had problems later in life switching to CDs from LDs...on that unit, it used two different heads and it had to pivot the head/spindle. I think the microswitch didn't make good contact so it didn't register that it had attained the new position....anyway...one thing a proper LD service center had to have was an optical jig from Pioneer to service these units and I hear it cost the service center buckets of dough too.
The CLD-D701 had a sudden and premature death...I liked it the best, feature wise but when it died, DVDs had come out and I decided to just get the DVL-700 instead of repairing the CLD-D701 since the DVL would do both. I'm still using the DVL-700 for LDs to this day. For DVDs...a cheeseball Pioneer that has been doing just fine and in fact is putting up with my 2-year old hanging from the DVD draw when its open...I'm amazed it hasn't snapped off yet!
As for composite...all players will carry that one...it is the great common denomiator...and sadly enough, most people don't see why S-Vid is so much better (no chroma crawl). That said, I perfectly understand why S-Vid is one that is dropped in current units...most consumers just don't get the difference and as a connector, you couldn't design one to fall out easier...except for HDMI. Component for consumers is just too damn confusing...three cables and the "Y" terminal has a green color to it....makes no sense! In truth, component should have adopted that the "Y" terminal use a Yellow color to distinquish it from R, G, B. Plus, if you just connect the Y signal, you will get an image (B/W).
Steve
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-17-2007, 10:12 AM:
quote: Steve Guttag
Pioneer then went through a very dark era where their stuff was complete crap
That's an interesting statement.
quote: Mike Blakesley
Frank D, instead of just making stupid statements, why don't you back up your "opinion" on Pioneer with some facts and actual knowledge...like I did?
Ok...I made the mistake of buying a Pioneer amp, and it was crap. It blew up. I owned a Pioneer lasdisc player, the picture was sharp, for the 5 weeks that it worked. I owned a Pioneer DVD player, it skipped when playing CD's. I owned a Pioneer Elite amp and it had fantastic sound, never had an issue, sold it 2 years later and only lost $50.
quote: Mike Blakesley
Elite is just a fancier line for them
LOL.....again.
quote: Steve Guttag
Yes Frank, but your "opinions" tend to make the "Opinions are like assholes..." come true...then again, that is just my opinion.
F U too you arrogant bastard. That's my opinion.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-17-2007, 10:27 AM:
Steve - I have to agree with you about the plasticky-green-faceplate era. That was a low point for sure. I think that was the same time they were offering "changeable" color on the face plate backlighting (orange or green). It was fun to demo for people though.
Frank - sorry you had bad luck with Pioneer. Clearly, you are in the minority since the company has been doing quite well for as long as I can remember. If your personality is the same in person as it is online, I'm glad we were not your dealer.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-17-2007, 10:46 AM:
Ok Frank, no more hinting around. Cool off or you need to leave the forums.
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-17-2007, 10:50 AM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
If your personality is the same in person as it is online, I'm glad we were not your dealer.
My personality is my business and between me and my friends.
As for being my dealer, I wouldn't deal with you personally for several reason (which I won't bother getting into), and secondly, I wouldn't deal in Pioneer unless it was exclusively the Elite line.
Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 12-17-2007, 11:15 AM:
I'm sorry but I love how everyone on here gets along fine and can have civil debates. The only time two people got heated when Frank wasn't involved was Bobby and Mark awhile back.
Frank you really need to cool down about stuff man. You get way to heated and abrasive for no reason.
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-17-2007, 11:41 AM:
Brad,
The personal attacks were not my doing. The only time someone steps in to stop the problem is when I respond to the personal attacks. Since when is voicing an opinion a problem here? Who in the hell needs to back up an opinion with hard facts? What gives some of these people the right to tell me that "I don't know shit" when actually I DO know shit about a lot of things. Perhaps instead of coming down on me for responding to personal attacks, you might consider stopping the personal attacks at the source. Does anyone really need to tolerate having their spelling and sentence structure analyzed? or maybe being told that unless your opinion is based on hard cold facts, its crap? or being told that they don't know shit about something? Can you really expect me to sit by and let these people talk to me like this without responding? Should anyone?
I agree things haven't been going smoothly...but if you look back, it's not all my fault here. I won't dish out crap anymore, but then I don't expect to have to take anymore crap either.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-17-2007, 11:52 AM:
Well apparently "don't know shit" is where this particular problem started. OK, I apologize for that. I should have said, "You don't know much about Pioneer" instead because that is clearly a fact (not an opinion).
Even though you love to throw around the "that's my opinion" phrase, you can't expect to make a statement that's complete and utter nonsense and not get an argument.
Addendum for Steve G.: When I first read your post I thought you were talking about the plastic-green car stereo faceplates, but re-reading it, it's clear you meant home audio equipment. I don't remember anything like that but we might not have been selling the home stuff at that time.
Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 12-17-2007, 12:08 PM:
quote: Bobby Henderson
If Toshiba had retained the S-Video feature in the HD-A3 so it could have worked properly with my current gear as a standard DVD player then I may have considered buying one.
I didn't even realize that the A3 had cut out the S-Video output. I guess the product manager for that item bent over one too many S-Video pins in the past! Man, I hate it when I do that! It does suck that they had to remove the connector, most likely just to reduce cost.
It's too bad that the timing couldn't have worked out better, as the HD-A2 HD DVD player is a great HD unit and it upsamples DVD's really well. $98 was a steal, and I feel fortunate to have been able to grab one.
Posted by Frank Dubrois (Member # 3042) on 12-17-2007, 12:36 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
you can't expect to make a statement that's complete and utter nonsense and not get an argument.
How can actually owning the product...using the product...and then being disappointed by the product NOT carry any kind of weight? After all, I am the end user. Products are being made for me to use. If they fail me, why can't I voice my opinion and state that any given product is crap? As you saw, I owned a lot of pioneer products, they all went to hell in what I would call a premature period of time. The only product I was satisfied with was a Pioneer Elite product. It performed flawlessly for a good period of time. I think my opinion on Pioneer products is quite valid.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-17-2007, 02:33 PM:
You can bet that if the kind of trouble you described was common to everyone, they would have been out of business years ago.
It's really amazing that you had THAT much trouble with those products. We've sold mostly car audio from Pioneer over the years, everything from the cheapest cassette decks to the best CD players and it's been a problem free line for us. We carried their home line for at least 10 years and I can't recall more than two or three units brought in for warranty service. Personally I had a CD player (a 100-disk changer) that quit about 2 years after the warranty expired. I sent it for repair, and it's still working fine today.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-17-2007, 04:12 PM:
I see you CAN get samples of the Greenish Pioneer stuff on eBay...here is a gem...the CT-9R
There were receivers and such to match...just cheap feeling yick devices.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-17-2007, 06:30 PM:
Frank, whatever is bothering you I hope it will pass over the next month. The mods have voiced their opinions on your recent posts and you are officially on leave from these forums for the next 4 weeks to cool off.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-17-2007, 07:09 PM:
Steve - A HA, now I remember those units. Yup, they were cheesy. The controls were indeed cheap-feeling. (Slide controls...a bad idea) I wonder if they were farming that stuff out or something. I notice the one on the ebay listing is being sold for parts only!
I remember the "cool" aspect of those was supposed to be, you could stack'em in a rack and the control panels of all the pieces would line up. This was when "rack systems" were all the rage.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-17-2007, 07:22 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
Well apparently "don't know shit" is where this particular problem started.
Actually the attacks really started back on Page 1 of this thread when I was accused of buying nothing but cheap crap (and having numerous other problems). The whole thing smelled like trolling.
quote: Scott Jentsch
I didn't even realize that the A3 had cut out the S-Video output. I guess the product manager for that item bent over one too many S-Video pins in the past! Man, I hate it when I do that! It does suck that they had to remove the connector, most likely just to reduce cost.
I don't know. I have a feeling that S-Video connector doesn't cost much of anything at all -at least not in terms of physical parts. Perhaps Toshiba didn't want to pay a licensing fee or something to include it on the HD-A3.
Still, IMHO, omitting certain connection standards just means fewer kinds of equipment can be connected and that's only going to reduce the potential number of customers. It's really not a good business decision.
On the subject of Pioneer products, I think they've generally made really good products over the years. Back in the late 1970s my father bought a few pieces of Pioneer rack-mountable pieces of home stereo gear (the Spec-1 and Spec-2 power amp and pre-amp, a Dolby NR cassette tape deck, a reverb unit and an equalizer). My brother has that equipment and most of it still works. The power amp is the only thing a bit flaky now after nearly 30 years. The protection circuit trips on now and then.
Of course, the DVD player I just lost was a Pioneer 5-disc carousel changer. But I think the overall weakness in carousel designs is what made that player unusable.
I have enough confidence in Pioneer products that I will definitely look at their line of audio-video receivers for possible replacements for my now-old Yamaha RX-V995 receiver. Onkyo, Denon and Yamaha all make some good products too. My old Yamaha receiver is a decent unit (paid nearly $1000 for it brand new). But it does not have component video switching and was built years before HDMI started appearing in anything. I'll probably buy a new HDTV well before I get a new receiver. But I'll probably have some strange combinations of cable connections happening for awhile -with at least a couple video connections being run straight into the TV set. I already know I'll have to do that when upgrading to either DirecTV HD or DishHD.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-17-2007, 10:06 PM:
Frank sent me two friendly emails tonight, and by friendly I mean rude. He won't be returning.
Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 12-18-2007, 02:35 AM:
Lets all hold a moment of silence for Frank.......ok that was to long. No more "great" opinions will be heard. RIP Frank
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-18-2007, 03:38 AM:
Whoa...make that three unnecessarily friendly emails! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-18-2007, 10:00 AM:
This is the one time I wish Brad would break his own rule and post those emails here! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Although I have a feeling my name might pop up here and there, so maybe not.
Seriously, I think ol' Frank has anger issues for sure. I wonder if he's had his blood pressure checked.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-18-2007, 11:32 AM:
Let's just hope his anger issues stay confined in "cyberspace" via e-mail and that he doesn't act out on anyone in the "real world."
Not that I'm concerned about anyone hunting me down. There's at least 3 other people in my town with the same name as me. That might cause some confusion for anyone looking to drive around 1000 miles non-stop while shitting into their Depends™ in order to catch up to me. One of these same name folks is a convicted felon for bank robbery and also a "deadbeat dad" on child support (DHS called me by accident when they were looking to collect). A real nice guy. My friends here in town had lots of fun with that when that fellow was in the news (for walking away from a halfway house and not returning).
What was this thread about again? Oh yeah, cheap DVD players! Be careful when buying one!
Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 12-18-2007, 10:00 PM:
And may I state, for the record:
I have never met Barry Bonds and I never gave any kind of steroids to anyone.
Thank you.
Oh, what fun it is to have a common name and the most famous one of us is not our best representative.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 12-18-2007, 10:36 PM:
My first "real" piece of audio equipment was a Pioneer SX-525 receiver.
I graduated from that to Pioneer separates: SA-9100 amp and TX-9100 tuner. In those days all Pioneer stuff was still made in Japan and you could tell they cared about making quality products.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-18-2007, 10:51 PM:
I had that exact receiver. Found it at my grandmother's house. Worked great, but it didn't look that nice. Can't remember what I did with it. Fake woodgrain makes anything sound better.
Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 12-19-2007, 03:12 AM:
The last Pioneer home stereo item I bought was a 6-disc cd changer which used the cartridges that one would put the cds label-side down in. I wore it out. It was the better of the home stereo cd players I had. The Technics carosel cd player I replaced it with started having skipping and sticking issues that I mistook as a cd-burning problem and I replaced my CD-RW drive in my computer before I realized it was my player that had a problem. I now have a Sony SCD-CE595. It's competitent but slow.
BTW, I don't mind if any of you critique my spelling or punctuation. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 12-19-2007, 03:49 AM:
I've had a Pioneer 18-disc changer, which uses 3 6-disc cartridges, for about 15 years and it still works good- twice it developed a skipping problem but I was able to fix that with a laser tracking and focus adjustment inside the machine.
My main DVD and laserdisc player for 9 years has been the DVL-909, I've gotten a few other cheap DVD players since then but I still like the DVL the best. I have it modified for region-select and no analog Macrovision, which causes slight bending on my 11 year old 4x3 TV. It gets through scratched discs from the public library while they have trouble on the other machines, the only real problem I've found with it is on homemade dual-layer discs, it freezes at the layer change and you have to manually advance it.
I've got a newer Pioneer DVD player that also plays DVD-Audio and SACD and plays PAL DVDs in NTSC, but it doesn't get through scratched discs as well as the older one does.
I'm waiting for dual-format HD players to be more common and reliable before I start upgrading to HD. Too bad Pioneer is 'exclusive' to Blu-Ray, as I bet they would have made a good dual-format machine.
Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 12-19-2007, 01:52 PM:
I'm late reading in on this thread, but I agree completely about the newer DVD players being generally awful in build quality in comparison to older units.
Know what the most reliable, most trouble-free player I've ever had was? My $750 Panasonic A300 that I bought in summer 1997. It still works and doesn't skip when playing discs, but it doesn't have component outputs and its picture quality isn't up to the newer ones, but it's been solid mechanically. The next best DVD player I've had was the Toshiba 3109 that I bought in 1999. It's still hooked up and working, although it doesn't look quite as good picture-wise as a couple of the newer units I've had. Both output 480i only.
The newer units often look better than the old ones, but they have real problems. They've cheapened the drives to the point that none of the newer players can seem to play a disc all the way through without the picture breaking up into staticy rectangles at least once or twice during a movie. It's embarrasing to play movies for friends because this usually happens. I have Panasonic and Toshiba models from the past couple of years and they both have this problem, although they have stellar picture quality via 480p through component. At the time, it was hard to find a plain DVD player costing more than $100.
I'm one who would love to spend $300 or $500 on a solidly-built long-lasting reliable player that also had the newer better quality picture to go with it. It seems I can have the reliability with the older player, or the better picture quality with a new model, but not both at once. Help!
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-19-2007, 09:35 PM:
Oh, you CAN have both...you just have to set aside your price expectations!
Here is Denon's top-o-d-line... DVD-5910CI
Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 12-19-2007, 10:41 PM:
I like Denon's equipment, but really, would most folks be able to tell the difference in the picture a $3800 STANDARD Dvd player produces? Yikes!
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-19-2007, 11:38 PM:
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for the Denon to be that large. What is this, 1972? I like how their $99 HDMI cable brags about its flexible jacket which helps reduce vibration. Yeah. Vibration might change some of those 1s into 0s and vice versa! Anyway a friend of mine has a Denon DVD player and it is kind of shitty. Granted it only cost a couple hundred bucks, but that thing is slow and not very good.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-19-2007, 11:47 PM:
I think the vibration would be that the cable could introduce extra sound but the fact is that the thing you're connecting it to will be heavy and usually absorb the sound if the people who designed it weren't morons.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-19-2007, 11:49 PM:
Here's a pict of my two Pioneer open reel machines -
A RT-1011L home based and a RT-1050 professional 10inch reel units.
Just proof of how much I think about Pioneer and their quality - in which I've known since the mid 70's when I put my first cassette player and their speakers from this company in my car..and have always been impressed with their in their audio products.
Interesting thing about Denon was their products under their earlier Denki Onkyo name of the 60's and 70's - and they made superb audio products, especially with open reel machines and high end electronic devices...and this unit that Steve presented is no difference.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-20-2007, 07:46 AM:
$3800? Damn. I wonder which would last longer--the $3800 Denon or a stack of one hundred $38 "Wal-Mart Special" players.
Odd that the Denon doesn't even have balanced audio outputs. For that price, I'd expect it to have every feature imagineable. I wonder if it lets you turn off the on-screen display and if it plays (or can be hacked to play) all region-coded disks. At least it seems to have a serial port for automation control.
Agreed with Evans that someone should make a quality DVD player for $500 (or thereabouts) that works, is well built, has a built-in 6-channel decoder, isn't region coded, and has a way to disable any on-screen display (or, better yet, disable the display on the component output, but not on composite). I would buy one.
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 12-20-2007, 08:48 AM:
The thing about that Denon player is that ANY Blu Ray or HDDVD player would destroy it for quality playback...when playing HD discs. When playing SD the Denon might be better, but how much better, and does anyone care (now)?
I cannot see the point of Uber-SD when there's HD available. Makes no sense. If Denon made a Blu Ray or HDDVD player that was ultra expensive, I might see the point for the same customers who buy Krell, Mark Levinson, etc.
'High End SD DVD' is now an oxymoron.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-20-2007, 09:29 AM:
So what do you think the production run on this unit was? 10,000 units? 20K? How many do you think Denon still has to unload? Could they EVER make back the R&D costs and production line costs for this elephant? Sure, you KNOW their marketing people were thinking the Top-of-the-Line factor would sell it, i.e., there will always be people who "want the very best" and are stupid enough to think that means if the pay the highest price, then they've got the best. Typically very rich people's mindset. So if you price an item high enough, then you reach that threshold that triggers those people to open their wallets. I guess Marketing weren't taking any chances and hit on a price tag of nearly 4 grand. Bet they hadn't figured in HD coming along! Ooops!
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-20-2007, 12:32 PM:
First, it is not a new player so it has had a bit of a run. Its output quality with SD discs is about as good as you are going to see SD DVDs...a lot of its output quality is derived from its very good scaler and deinterlacer. Its audio quality is also superior owing to its phenominal D/A converters. Could the average person tell the difference...depending on the monitor, you bet! The bigger the picture, the more you are going to notice it. No it can't make HD from SD but some who have seen this unit in action say it is pretty darn close. I've only had limited viewings of it.
It all depends on one's application as to is viability. I suspect that those that would dismiss it here have never seen it and are basing their opinions strictly on their experiences with current players in categories substantially less and therefore surmizing it CANT'T be THAT much better. If you are going to dable in the <$100 to $500 market, you don't have the experience to just the high-end until you start looking at it to judge for yourself.
Me personally, I've never sold one of these but I have seen one...and yes, it is notably better...which might mean a lot to someone that has a large and even growing collection of DVDs.
Pioneer has a player that is over $1K that is also interesting from a PRO standpoint...it has separate monitor outputs, among many other pro features so one can see the menus and cue up on the monitor and not project that out to the audience. RS-232 control is also a strong desirable feature in a large pro installation as Crestron or AMX is normally used for controlling such a system.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-20-2007, 07:30 PM:
Steve, I am not dismissing it because I think it doesn't present a very high quality image and sound, I just think that they are going to have one bitch of a time trying to sell a player in that price range for a format that will soon be replaced by the HD counterpart. It would be like RCA coming out with a souped up monumentally expensive photocell pickup tube just as Fairchild was demonstrating the use of its spanking new P-N Junction Photodiodes (solar cells) as solid state replacements of the tube pickup in soundheads.
Point is, I think there will be a very miniscule market for a $3800 SDVD-only player, no matter how good it is. And if a person has THAT kind of money to spend on HD quality, why wouldn't they forget about plunking down 4 grand and just go out and buy decent HD-DVD or/and a Blu-Ray DVD player and replace all his SDVD with HD versions? The HD versions are going to look better than his DVDs even if he plays them with this super player. No matter how well-made it is, it's still can only play a dying format.
Another example -- as we get closer to the cut-off date of NTSC broadcasting, who would buy a super quality, $3800 TV set that can only display NTSC signals?
Who is going to buy a wildly expensive improvement of a dying technology or format.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-20-2007, 07:46 PM:
They would buy it because....
The HD discs are going to be mostly concerned with new titles that will build their market place.
The person already has an extensive collection
This player will out peform an HD player while displaying SD discs (out upscale SDs, not have SD discs look better than HD discs playing in HD).
Has better audio D/As than what is in current HD units...etc.
And remember...it didn't JUST come out...it is certainly at the end of its life as it would be much smarter to make a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player will all this great SD upscaling stuff at this point...for sure.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-21-2007, 03:45 PM:
quote: Steve Guttag
The HD discs are going to be mostly concerned with new titles that will build their market place.
Actually, of the 350 or so titles that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have among their selection, quite a few are older "catalog" titles. A good number of new releases are also appearing on the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats. Unfortunately, the selection of titles in the last couple of years has not been all that great. That makes catalog title availability in HD format a more crucial thing. The new Bladerunner and Close Encounters discs are among the more important catalog titles released for HD format in recent weeks.
FWIW, Denon is working on new optical disc players that will accommodate both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray in a single player while also providing compatibility with DVD-V, SACD, DVD-A and many other formats. I'm sure Denon will sell at least one of those player models priced into the stratosphere and require a hulking space in an entertainment center rack.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-21-2007, 04:11 PM:
quote: Bobby Henderson
I'm sure Denon will sell at least one of those player models priced into the stratosphere and require a hulking space in an entertainment center rack.
..or do the unusual: have a dual tray unit for each format with a piggyback circuitboards configuration to network to a common output circuitry, thus to keep cabinet size down to acceptable levels for home usage.
Prob a project not too distant in the future that DENON would love to dive into..
But, you know that if a project ever get into production, it'll be for the audiophile lovers who has that expensive taste for video and audio combinations.
-Monte
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