Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Wanted: Advice for New Home Sound System

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Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 08-19-2003, 02:46 PM:

So I have this new house and I want a new home sound system. It will undoubtedly be a home theatre set up, but it will be budget conscious and live in the living room. The good news is that my living room is 19’ X 19’. The living room comes with a 50” wide niche for a projection television. The only problem is that the fireplace is central to the living room and the niche is off-center.

For a television I was thinking of one of four different methods. First, I want a 60” plasma screen. That’s not going to happen due to the high cost. Then I was thinking of one of that new Samsung DLP projection TVs. This would get me HD, the same screen real estate as the plasma, fit in the niche and cost ½ what the plasma costs. But that is still too much money for a TV. Then I was thinking that I could get an LCD projector, ceiling mount it and use the opposite wall for the screen. This would have the advantage of size and cost effectiveness but the disadvantage of having to darken the room to watch TV. The sidewall is all windows. My final thought is to just get a 36” CRT TV for less than a grand and be done with it.

The video I would run off of a Dish Network system with a PVR built in. For a DVD source I would want to find a reasonably priced, progressive scan, DVD player.

For Sound I was thinking the following: Outlaw Audio http://www.outlawaudio.com/home.html has a nice receiver for $499 or a very good processor and amp.

For Speakers I was thinking of B&W floor standing speakers http://www.bwspeakers.com I have always been impressed with B&W speakers. Another speaker system I was considering is Magneplanar speakers. http://www.magnepan.com My mother’s husband has had these speakers for years and they are crisp and clear. They have an Internet special where you can get a pair of their smallest speakers the MMG for $500. I would get 5 of these and a nice subwoofer. Planar speakers are noted for their lack of bass.

So I just put this out there for comment. Let the opinions fly.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-19-2003, 06:53 PM:

Ian,
Go Pass Labs all the way for electronics. Check out Dynaudio speakers. They are both among the finest home audio stuff available. If you want to hear whats in the music this stuff is unequaled.
www.passlabs.com
www.dynaudio.com

Mark

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-19-2003, 06:54 PM:

If you want real HD, you're not going to get it from DLP, LCD or any flat screen stuff --at least for now in the current, overpriced offerings. Some flat screen monitors can hit or slightly surpass the 720p rez spec (1280 X 720 pixels). But I won't be satisfied until they match the 1080 spec (1920 X 1080 pixels). The only flat screen monitors on the market that do that are flat panel computer monitors (that also don't cost anywhere near as much either!).

Now if I were going to go out today and spend some serious "Jack" on a television monitor, I would get a really good rear projection HD system. Sure, you'll have to get a semi-truck to deliver it to your house. But those beasts can show 1080HD. And you'll save perhaps a couple extra grand and be able to spend better on things like speakers.

There's lots of great A/V receivers out there. Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo --if you're willing to spend more than $800 for a receiver you'll get a pretty damned good "mid-fi" unit. If you can afford over $2,000 for the receiver or controller, then I'm jealous of you.

I think the most money on a home theater system should go into the speakers, particularly the sub. With a 19' X 19' room, the even square shape will lend to the slam effect when you put a good sub in the corner. If you put something as big as a 15" or 18" unit in there, you'll need to do a lot to take care of vibrating windows and other objects certain to make rattling noise.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 08-19-2003, 07:14 PM:

Yamaha or Denon for the receiver.

Toshiba for the display.

Paradigm Reference for the speaker system.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 08-19-2003, 11:31 PM:

WHAT!!! you mean your not installing a complete film chain like I did [Wink]

Josh

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-20-2003, 07:58 AM:

Denon? Yamaha? Why not just get a CP500 and be done with it? You can set up custom formats for matrixed Dolby (with or without NR) and use format 10 for 5.1 sound for DVD.

In addition to a full-size DLP projector, Ian will definitely want a Sony HDW-M2000, which is the greatest video deck ever (it plays back Beta SP, Beta SX, MPEG IMX, Digi-Beta, and HDCAM, and records HDCAM). He will also need 16mm and 35mm capability (a pair of Kinoton FP-38Es with ISCO lenses would probably be a good choice), complete with SRD, DTS (including 16mm), and SDDS. He can hire Brad or Steve to run the film for him.

We will be holding the next F-T gathering in Ian's living room.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 08-20-2003, 01:05 PM:

quote:
Cost effective!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-21-2003, 02:31 AM:

Ian, just get you a bunch of JBL 8340 surround speakers! They sound great and you'd have perfect timbre matching between all speakers. You could get away with as few as 7 of these speakers (left, center, right, left surround, right surround, left EX, right EX). You'll also want a subwoofer. My Velodyne is powered and sounds kick ass. I am quite amazed at how good it sounds. Just go to the store and ask for the same sub I have and they'll know what to bring out.

I'll leave the receiver, amps, TV, A/V switcher (I hate using the reciever for this function) and videogame system all up to you.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 11-19-2003, 07:34 PM:

Ok Mark and Steve, what do you think of the idea of a system that uses JBL 8340 speakers in all locations for a home theatre? At $360 each, they are more affordable that most home theatre speakers.

I have looked at Klipsch and found them wanting and too expensive. Actually, I can't believe how bad the entire Klipsch line sounds in the store.

I have looked at Energy/Veritas and found them nice sounding but too damn expensive.

Magnepan has the MMG for sale for $550 per pair, but I'm sure they will sound good but not play too loud; they max out at about 92db. And they suck down the power too.

I'm also just a bit sick of what's out there for HDTV. The Samsung DLP looks great in HD but sucks in SD. The Mitsubishi rear projection look good but will be tweak hogs. And every thing still costs many thousands of dollars.

Also I have been to most stereo stores in Santa Rosa and quite a few in San Francisco, why do they all suck so much? I have been to a few stores that shouldnâ€™t even be open they present their products so poorly. One store I was in had damaged goods on the floor.

I still don't have a TV.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 11-19-2003, 08:39 PM:

Ian did you listen to the Klipsch RF7? Those are really nice speakers.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-19-2003, 08:56 PM:

Klipsch (any model) = [puke]

!!!

Ian, the 8340 idea was an idea of mine that a few of my friends have set up with great results. You will be pretty happy with it. Add an EV T-880 subwoofer and you'll be damned happy. [thumbsup]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-19-2003, 09:07 PM:

Personally I like Energy's speakers. I've heard they are less expensive in Canada though. I think you'd be happy with the 8340's though.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 11-19-2003, 09:42 PM:

Hey Brad, have you ever listened to a pair of Klipschhorns or LaScalas?

They may change your mind about 'all' Klipsch products... [Smile]

-Aaron

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 11-19-2003, 09:43 PM:

For the plasma screen do a google search for 'Plasma screens" and see what model all the other ones are compared to. That's what I did when I bought my 42" Panasonic. I figure the one they are all compared to is the best. Things might have changed since then but I really am happy with my unit. Prices are coming down too. I sit about 16' from the screen and I find that size to be fine

DVD player...this is a shocker but I like the el cheapo $70 Cyber Home 500 because it's really easy to make it "regionless" and honestly it looks as good as the progressive scan Q50 that cost 5X as much that I have.

Amp... I like tubes. Dyanco Stero 70 was the one before my pride and joy the McIntosh MC275 that I use now. Any tube amp with BIG transformers will work.
I have some Klipsch tower type speakers that handle the Mac just fine and they weren't too expensive.
Add a self powered subwoofer (any brand) and you're there

Oh....preamp I use an older NAD, cause it is a preamp/tuner combo that can be hard to find

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-19-2003, 10:16 PM:

Klipschhorns = sound good with certain music and acoustics...certainly not a good choice for movies.

LaScalas = major [puke]

(I have these in one complex and hate them dearly. NO real low end at all and they are overloaded with those "honky" upper bass frequencies. That's not to mention the assinine 7Khz peak they have. But then again, all Klipsch speakers produce about as flat of a frequency response as Ian's ass.)

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-19-2003, 10:46 PM:

For "reasonably priced" home theater speakers Paradigm is a good alternative (if you're wanting a 5.1 speaker setup in the $1500 to $2500 range). IMHO, their speakers work well for both music and movies. Their subs put out an impressive amount of "slam" for a modest price; certainly worth checking out if you're not going to blow $1500 on a high end sub.

Pioneer may not make the lowest cost DVD players. But their players are dependable and they make some good progressive scan models. My Pioneer 5-disc changer has given me no trouble at all, which is a lot more than I can say for the Sony P-O-S DVD player I bought back in 1999.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-19-2003, 10:53 PM:

I'll second that about Paradigm's. Their subs have been cause for many visits by the local police. [Big Grin]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-20-2003, 12:42 AM:

Actually Brad, Ian's ass does have quite the flat response. Back at Greenwood Pat Redmond was EQing and Ian had to fart. Pat told Ian to hold it in for a few seconds while he set up his mics and multiplexer close to Ian's ass. At Pat's O.K., Ian let one fly and the frequency response was VERY flat! It had that high, whiffing sound while simultaneously rumbling.

Posted by Jeff Skallan (Member # 891) on 11-20-2003, 01:08 AM:

I third the great advice backing speakers from Paradigm. After listening to nearly a dozen speakers in the price range of $500 to $900, a few years back I decided to spring for a pair of Paradigm Studio 40 speakers for around $750. Smooth as glass!

I almost purchased a pair of B&W CM2 speakers for $800 that sounded great, but when it came to acoustic guitar (which is at least half of my CD collection) they fell flat. The cool thing about Paradigm also is that you get to choose a custom finish built for you with no extra cost.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 11-20-2003, 02:38 AM:

I've heard very good things about the Outlaw combo. For the price, it should be darn good. I have a Yamaha reciever and have loved it for over two years strong. Denon makes some nice models too, and I heard that the Pioneer THX models are fantastic.

For a DVD player, you can't go wrong with Pioneer. I've had mine for almost five years and it hasn't stopped spinning yet. It also plays any discs, including burned DVD's, that I throw at it.

Finally, for the TV, look at models from Sony, Mitsubishi, and Pioneer. To me, all of them look fantastic in HD and can be fun to tweek, but they seem to all do a great job on SD stuff like Laserdisc, satellite, and cable. I'm not sure if Pioneer has any newer models, but the ones I sold a few years ago were totally kick @$$. I don't buy into the LCD and DLP stuff quite yet because it just can't look as nice as a good ole CRT. Aw heck, just get a Runco CRT (may have to sell the car and the kids though [Razz]

).

And whatever you do, don't get Bose speakers. [fu]

AJG

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 11-20-2003, 02:39 AM:

The newer Klipsch's horns can be brutal on the ears if you listen to them for long periods of time at high volume. Their reference series is not bad sounding for movies and adds an interesting element due to the center channel also has a horn.

I fourth the Paradigm recommendation. I own the complete studio series system. Studio 60 towers, Studio Center, Studio ADP ( dipole surrounds ) and last but not least, the mighty Servo 15.

Aaron, right on with that comment on Bose. For the price they are worth you'd think that Dr. Bose could at least include quality components instead of tweeters that look like they came from Radio Shack alarm clock radios.

Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 11-20-2003, 06:58 AM:

One of the guys mentioned a McIntosh MC-275, which is a 75-watts per channel tube unit. I'd like to put in a word here for McIntosh amps, anyone who gets these will be very happy plus they are an excellent investment.

My front end consists of a C27 preamp, purchased in 1978 and a MR-74 AM/FM tuner, purchased 1974. I was using a HK Citation-A preamp for a number of years prior to the C27. Power amps are a pair of McI 2205 200 watts/channel with the meters, also from year 1978.

All of this has been running about 14 hours a day since 1978 with no problems. All I have ever had to do is clean off dust and replace an occasional burned-out panel lamp. Theatre pipe organ played through this system shakes the house with no effort at all.

Another consideration reflecting the "investment value" of McIntosh equipment, if one want to look at it that way; is I could sell all of it for possibly more than I paid for it, thereby having had the use of the equipment free for about 25 years! But I would never do this, it would be like selling one's cat or the children. [Some of us have cats, others have children, and some, both.]

The best source I know of for used McIntosh items is
www.audioclassics.com in New York. Have a look around their excellent website.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-20-2003, 08:56 AM:

"Ok Mark and Steve, what do you think of the idea of a system that uses JBL 8340 speakers in all locations for a home theatre? At $360 each, they are more affordable that most home theatre speakers."
_________________________________________________________________
I wouldn't use 8330's at home...you'd be replacing tweeters in them constantly. Probably the best speakers money can buy come from Denmark and Dynaudio. I've owned a pair of Dyn's for years now...At 6 grand for the replacements, can't afford to replace them any time soon but I love em too much anyway. Consider the Dynaudio Evidence speaker...the only speaker in the world that can reproduce the full dynamic range on an SACD! They'll only run you 80K. They also make home surround system, and in wall speakers...

http://www.dynaudiousa.com/

Ian, wait and go to Hi-Fi expo in San fran next time around before you buy anything. It'll give you a better idea of how good the really good hi-end stuff is these days.

Regfarding Khorns.... They only sound really good with certain drivers. I was once going to buy a pair through a person that designs large cinema horn systems...you all know of him..... and he was also going to be sure they had the "right drivers" in them. I don't think Klipsch is much the company it was back in the good ole McIntosh days... for that matter neither is McIntosh.

Regarding amps... Pass Labs stuff is by far the best on the market that you can buy. Severl of his amplifiers have already become highly regarded Classics in theor own right. They do make multi channel Surround system amps.

www.passlabs.com

Mark

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 11-20-2003, 09:12 AM:

I've been researching HDTV options as my trusty Zenith 32" is starting to drop hints that it's not long for the world.

What I've found so far is depressing at best. Good CRT's are going to run you into some money, good rear-projection TV's are going to run you even more money, and good plasmas will force you to trade in your car to afford them.

With the space Ian has for the TV, any CRT should be out of the question. They're just too small. A really good 32" 4:3 will run about $1,000. A 34" widescreen will get you a nice TV-sized image in both 16:9 and 4:3 modes, but will set you back $1,800-$2,400. At that point, you are reaching into the realm of rear-projection DLP's and LCD's.

Plasmas are wonderful at the get-go (if you can stomach the price), but their usable life is still very much in question. They do win in the coolness category, because everyone will ooh and ahh over the fact you plunked down enough money to hang your TV on the wall.

The two options left are using the same technology: DLP. I know that is a bad word for some here, but the Samsung rear-projection DLP units look really nice, with the Sony LCD rear projections coming in a close second. 3-tube CRT wouldn't even enter my mind as an option.

Samsung HLN467W Tantus 46" Widescreen Projection HDTV with DLP Technology
42" Grand WEGAâ„¢ LCD Rear Projection TV - KF-42WE610

I think the final option is going to give you the best bang for the buck if you want a big screen; and that is something on the order of the InFocus 7200 DLP front projector. It's very bright, so much so that many people feel the need to tone it down a notch or two in light-controlled rooms, so you would probably be happy with it in a normally lit room. (No projection unit will tolerate a brightly lit room, especially with direct sunlight)

InFocus 7200

This is the only way you are going to get a really big image for about $7,000. That's up to three times the price of the rear projection units I mentioned, but those only go up to about 42"-60", so it largely depends on how big you want your picture to be.

If SD is lacking on the Samsung DLP rear-projection, I would wager it's because SD is lacking. A good scaler will help to improve that for about $1,000 or so.

As far as speakers go, I've always been very biased towards Boston Acoustics. Every time that I have gone speaker shopping with friends and family, we listen to multiple brands, and I keep choosing Boston's. It may be that I'm now so familiar with the sound that I subconsciously prefer the familiar sound, don't know. I currently run 555x fronts, VRS Pro surrounds (all THX) with an M&K dual-12" 100-watt sub, and it equals the sound I get in most theaters around here. I highly recommend Boston Acoustics, both on their Micro line (which perform amazingly well for their size) and their VR line (which bear a resemblance to some Mirage Omnipolars I was impressed with last year).

Boston Acoustics Micro Series Bookshelf Speakers
Boston Acoustics Reference Series Speakers

I advocate spending more on the speakers than I do on the electronics, since I think that the speakers have a greater impact on the sound quality you actually hear. Things like special amps and pre/pro's have an impact but not nearly as great as getting a good speaker in the first place.

For bang for the buck in the receiver and pre/pro category, I'm planning on going with the Denon 3803 receiver. This is a well-regarded receiver that has many of the processing electronics of the top-tier 5803 monster, but without the insane extras and huge amplification.

3803 Spec Sheet (PDF)

When it's time to upgrade the amplification, I'm going to be looking at the Outlaw amps, which have a very good reputation and are inexpensive. But with 110W per channel on the 3803, I don't expect to need to go that route any time soon. If all you want is bare-bones features, the Outlaw pre/pro might be OK for you, but it pales in comparison once you see what something like the Denon's can do for the price.

For the best picture going into that new HD set of yours, you will want a DVD player that can deliver a DVI output as well. The Samsung 931 has worked well, but there are complaints about edge enhancement problems, and other mfrs are coming out with DVI units as well. If the set you buy only has one DVI input, you'll need to decide if you'd rather have the HDTV receiver on it or the DVD player, and then choose the other with good component outs.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 11-20-2003, 09:13 AM:

There was a recent article in the NY TImes which stated that Plasma is a short term fix, and that LCD will take over the "thin screen" market in 3-4 years as the cost comes down and the ability to produce larger screens is developed. For my kitchen I use a Philips 17" wide screen HD fed from Direct TV and the picture is unreal. For the den I use a Hitachi 57" rear proj. HD and am equally happy. At $2 grand for the Hitachi I couldn't justify going plasma, and that was before I heard all the knocks about screen burning, loss of brightness, etc. For 5.1 I'm still using a $500 Sony receiver and Bose mini speakers. To my ears it's pleanty good enough and not that expensive. Good luck, Ian.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 11-20-2003, 11:55 AM:

Plasma TV's are dropping in prices. The same 60" model that was $8000 in April, is $5000 this week. Bare in mind these are Canadian prices.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-21-2003, 08:50 PM:

I still have not seen a Plasma TV that looks good to me. Colors just do not look correct or properly saturated like they do with either an LCD or CRT type system. My first generation Mitsubishi 50" HDTV has been functioning just fine for me for about 4 years now. Its been alot fo fun to watch all the HDTV channels(and experimental stuff) come in and the market grow. I'm not exactly sure about the number of channels here but its at least 7 or 8.
Here in SLC we have the highest HDTV transmission site in the country located at a bit over 10K feet on top of Farnsworth Peak.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-22-2003, 12:50 PM:

And of course ALL plasma flat screen TVs still have that problem of not enough native pixels to really be HD.

Like I keep saying, when (or IF) their monitors can have native 1080 X 1920 pixels then the monitors will be more legit. Until then I'll keep treating them like they don't exist.

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 11-22-2003, 04:32 PM:

Joe, Glad you like your McIntosh gear. I have a pair of MC-40's (tube amps P-P 6L6's). Also one (I wish it were two!) MC-75 (tube amp P-P 6550's), and a MC 250 (early solid state stereo 50W/channel). This stuff runs and runs. Normally in the winter months I run the tube amps when any extra room heat is desirable. In the summer, the MC-250 is pressed into service. Other than one GE 6L6 catastrophic failure, all this has been running for about ten years now. BTW, I put Russian 6L6's in the amp that lost one, they seem to doing fine.

Mac is fine stuff [thumbsup]

PS Someone said don't buy Bose speakers, I'll second that!! [thumbsdown]

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 11-22-2003, 07:36 PM:

Hey Joe
Anytime you want to sell your Mac stuff, I'll be glad to give you what you paid for it new [evil]

Seriously though. Does one of those tuners have a built in preamp?. It's so handy to not have to have both a preamp and tuner. That's the only reason I went with the NAD unit