Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: My brother's firmware problem

This is topic My brother's firmware problem in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-13-2009, 06:17 PM:

When my brother and his wife and I tried to watch the BD of BATMAN RETURNS, at his house on his beautiful HD set, only the Warner Brothers introduction would play but not the movie on his Sony Blu Ray player which he had for only five months. Realizing he had a firmware problem, he took the machine to Sony and they updated it without charge. We thought the problem was solved but only a few months after the update, his machine now will not play BDs from Fox. Like the Batman, BD, only the introduction and the trailers would play but not the movie when he selected 'Play" on the menu with his remote. He seem to have no problem with the other labels except Fox. Thankfully, My Panasonic BD35 is now four months old after purchase but so far, I seem to be having no problem with all the BDs I had played on it. Does anyone know why my brother is having firmware problem with his Sony?

-Claude

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-13-2009, 10:49 PM:

Specifically which model of BD player does your brother have? How old is the player? I assume it isn't a BD Live capable player since he literally had to take it to Sony for a firmware update.

This is one of the primary reasons why I bought a Playstation 3 instead of a standalone BD player. The PS3 has been far more capable right out of the box than any standalone BD players on the market, despite it often being dismissed as a "toy." Over the past year I've had the machine I've applied more than half a dozen system software updates which have dramatically improved the capability of the system.

While I'm writing this, I have my music CD collection playing in the PS3 via an external attached 1 terabyte external hard disc. It works pretty well. The only minor flaw I've encountered is the album cover thumbnails that appear on the computer when ripping the tracks don't seem to come up in the PS3.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-15-2009, 08:09 PM:

If possible, connect the player's ethernet port on the back. Most players auto-detect and download firmware updates automatically from the internet. I LOVE my Sony BDP-S550.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-16-2009, 02:56 PM:

My brother called Sony and they sent him a disc with the latest firmware update for his player and everything is ok-for now. I think I read somewhere that said Panasonic will send me an email informing me to go online for the latest firmware update for my BD35 player. So far, I had not heard from them. My player was purchased on the 2nd week this past January. Has there been a firmware update since that time?

-Claude

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-16-2009, 06:21 PM:

I've had 3 firmware updates since last year with my LG HDDVD/BluRay combo-deck, and already 1 update for my Sony since I got it in January. Firmware updates are going to be a big part of BluRay - every time a hacker figures out how to bypass the copy protection, the studios will change the encryption on all their discs going forward. Players will need to be updated every time the encryption changes.

This is one reason why BRD may take a lot of time to gain widespread success. I can't easily explain to my Grandfather how to install a network router and wire up his player to the internet for updates, and waiting for the manufacture to send him a copy on a CD will get old after a few times.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-17-2009, 01:08 PM:

Umm...wow. So the ability to play new disks will always depend upon having upgraded firmware? That will just kill the chances for mainstream adoption of the format, since normal people don't want to call customer service and wait for a firmware update disk to arrive before they can play rental disks.

People think of these things as appliances, like stereos or toasters, and expect them to work and continue working for many years without maintenance. To tell a typical Blu-Ray customer that he just bought a computer and not an appliance will just make him angry.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-17-2009, 01:53 PM:

Scott,

What has happened to my brother has not yet happened to me with my Panasonic BD player but I will be very upset if I cannot suddenly play any discs until I downloaded the latest firmware from Panasonic. I went to the Panasonic Firmware site and after reading the instructions how to do the downloads, I WAS CONFUSED! I am not good when it comes to reading manuals when it does not explain in simple terms how to get things done. Yes, I have to agree, this will be a turn off to many when they realize most Blue Ray players must be updated from time to time in order to play new releases.

-Claude

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-24-2009, 03:29 AM:

Well, normal people will just plug their BD player into the Internet and be done with it, right?

Cue Avenue Q: "Ready normal people?" "Ready!"

--jhawk

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-24-2009, 10:39 AM:

I think issues with firmware on BD players has been exaggerated. The vast majority of Blu-ray releases play just fine even on older Profile 1.0 machines (those players just don't get access to Bonus View or BD Live based content).

The areas where problems do occur more often has to do with errors in how the movie discs were authored, such as certain New Line discs not having their DTS-HD 7.1 tracks encoded correctly or certain James Bond movie BDs not loading on certain player models. Firmware updates can correct those issues, but so can a disc trade in program (which was usually what had to happen with DVD).

Customers also must realize they will give up a certain amount of convenience and ease of product use by going with the lowest priced BD players available. If someone wants a player they know can be firmware updated and have it done fairly easily they just need to be a BD Live profile 2.0 capable unit. Or better yet, just get a Playstation 3. If there is an important firmware update available the PS3 will automatically notify you about it and walk you through a pretty easy process of updating the system.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-24-2009, 03:09 PM:

I still think that the idea of needing a firmware update in order to play a disk is silly, and won't be accepted by Aunt Millie and friends (who may not have Internet access and almost certainly don't have a home network with wiring to each TV set).

VCRs, DVD players, radios, TV sets, turntables, cassette players, and CD players do not require firmware updates in order to provide basic functionality. Why should Blu-Ray? Firmware updates may have the unfortunate consequence of changing or removing features or other attributes of product functionality. Most people probably want a product that works out of the box and keeps working, rather than one that randomly self-mutates.

Are there any other (non-personal-computer) consumer products that are this flaky?

(Yes, I know that the situation is more complicated than this, but I'm trying to look at it from Aunt Millie's point of view.)

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-24-2009, 04:21 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
VCRs, DVD players, radios, TV sets, turntables, cassette players, and CD players do not require firmware updates in order to provide basic functionality. Why should Blu-Ray?

You're assuming those other devices were glitch-free and didn't require firmware updates to fix problems. That certainly wasn't the case the case for DVD. Some DVD players could be updated via firmware burned to a CD. Others had problems that required the customer to buy an entirely new player. I went through that with the first DVD player I bought (in 1999 for $450).

By the time Aunt Millie got around to relinquishing her beloved VHS tape player (likely circa 2002-2004 at the behest of her kids or grand kids) the various bugs in the DVD format had since been solved. Players were cheap and plenty of "full screen" DVDs were available.

The same thing will hold true for Blu-ray. Aunt Millie won't specifically go out looking to buy a new Blu-ray player. In a couple of years when her $69 DVD player breaks she'll end up having to buy another DVD player that also happens to play Blu-ray discs.

Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 03-24-2009, 04:53 PM:

I remember going into an electronics store a couple of years ago and seeing signs on TVs that said something like: "Warning, this TV will not receive over-the-air broadcasts after February 2009." The stores were forced to warn customers about this before some unsuspecting shopper foolishly expected their TV to just WORK, like so many TVs always did for so many years.

If the stores had to do that, then I think they should post something that says: "Warning! This Blu-ray player might randomly decide not to play certain discs until YOU perform an update to the player. Good luck!" How many salesman even know that this might be a problem? And, of those who do, how many actually tell their customers?

It's always embarrassing when I help friends troubleshoot computer problems and I just brush things off like, "Yeah, go ahead and reboot. It's actually normal for your computer to lock up like that and make you panic." I'm tired of being treated like the company's Beta tester.

[ 03-24-2009, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Greg Anderson ]

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-24-2009, 05:31 PM:

As far as I am concerned, I think the Blu Ray system is perfect as it is. I can see why Bobby is not bothered by the necessity of tweaking the system from time with firmware updates because he is a very intelligent person regarding the complexity of the new HD disc format and many other things. Unfortunately, many of us do not posses the kind of knowledge he has whenever we have firmware problems and I appreciate the fact that he is available for me to pick his brain if I should have any problem with a BD player and discs in addition to other matters. Regarding the way Blu Ray discs are manufactured, why not make all new discs bacward compatable and playable on every BD player with or without firmware updates? Firmware updates to a player that will make it current should still be available to those who have the mental capabilities to able to do it without any problem.

-Claude

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-24-2009, 07:10 PM:

I propose that for the 3.0 BR spec, they include a way to push updates through the actual discs. For instance, the copy of Bolt I just got might include the latest firmware on the disc which the player could find and automatically update with.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-24-2009, 10:11 PM:

Claude, the fundamental problem with that is that the firmware updates are used to invalidate compromised encryption keys. They in fact serve to make some discs unplayable on some machines.

Also, at least in a professional context, it's unacceptable for me to put in a BD disc that updates the firmware of my player. Imagine I'm running a film festival and Program Item 10 includes a firmware update that breaks Program Item 11. Unacceptable. (also, they would need to include firmware for all manufacturers, which is probably a non-starter).

--jhawk

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-24-2009, 10:24 PM:

quote: Mike Olpin
I propose that for the 3.0 BR spec, they include a way to push updates through the actual discs.

It's not going to be practical to include player firmware updates on the movie discs themselves, or through movie-specific BD Live web sites operated by movie studios.

In the cases where compatibility problems have come to light it has been after the retail movie disc product has arrived on store shelves. Movie studios/disc authoring houses don't have time to test their movies on every Blu-ray disc player ever released. At best they can only test them on the Playstation 3 and perhaps a handful of other industry leading models.

I would also much rather get a firmware update from the player manufacturer than a 3rd party like the home video wing of a movie studio. A third party's attempts at fixing a problem run a greater risk of turning a BD player into a "brick."

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
I can see why Bobby is not bothered by the necessity of tweaking the system from time with firmware updates because he is a very intelligent person regarding the complexity of the new HD disc format and many other things.

Funny thing is the process of updating a Blu-ray player's firmware is more simple than the naysayers may know (or are willing to admit). That's especially true for BD Live capable Blu-ray players connected to the Internet.

The Blu-ray players from Sony have a user interface very similar to that of the Playstation 3. Go to the "settings" menu and select "network update." Pretty simple.

Panasonic makes it even easier. Their players can automatically download firmware updates. Or they'll at least alert you when an update is available. The Sony players may also do this (the PS3 does); I just didn't read far enough in the manuals to find out for sure.

At least with BD players that can connect to the Internet, the updating process is more simple than navigating through most movie menus, or writing an e-mail message or posting something on one's Twitter page.

If someone bought an old, cheap or very limited functioning Blu-ray player that requires them to burn the firmware to a CD or DVD then I could see good reason to complain. However, most early adopters who jumped in to Blu-ray knew the situation about the various BD profiles and paid the high prices for those early players anyway. Likewise, many of those customers have the technical know-how to burn an ISO to a CD and what not. The prudent early adopters who wanted a fuss free experience bought a PS3 instead.

quote: John Hawkinson
Also, at least in a professional context, it's unacceptable for me to put in a BD disc that updates the firmware of my player.

That reminds me of the infamous rootkit controversy with certain music CDs from Sony. Put the music CD into your computer's optical disc drive and get the gift of spyware!