Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: THE LAST EMPEROR sound problem with Blu-Ray & DVD

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 07-28-2009, 09:54 PM:

Shortly after DVDs were introduced in 1997, THE LAST EMPEROR was released in the format and the picture quality was terrible. Nothing was done to correct the problem until recently when Criterion and Image Entertainment released the movie on both DVD and Blu-Ray. When it was released early this year, I did not have a BD player and had no intention of getting one so I purchased the DVD collectors edition and I was very happy with it. Now that I have a BD player and a 1080p HD set, I really wanted to get the best version of the movie and when Amazon dropped the price from about $40.00 to $20.00, I felt it was time for a upgrade. The disc arrived yesterday and I played a couple of minutes of it before I watched another movie and I thought it sounded great. I went back to the BD of THE LAST EMPEROR after I finished watching the other disc and made a interesting discovery. There was something wrong with the DTS sound. Instead of the main sound source coming from the front centre speaker such as dialogue, they were coming from the right and left front speakers. There was only a faint trace of sound coming from the centre speaker. Out of curiosity, I decided to check the DVD version that has 5.1 Dolby sound and it too had the same sound problem. Thinking there was something wrong with my sound system, I played other DVDs with Dolby 5.1 sound and Blu Ray's with DTS sound and all the discs played back perfectly! It was very interesting to note that the BD of THE LAST EMPEROR did not seem to have an alternate Dolby 5.1 track - only DTS. If any of you have either the DVD or the Blu-Ray of THE LAST EMPEROR, how does it sound on your system?

As far as the picture quality of the movie on Blu Ray, I was very happy I up graded and got the BD because it was almost as I remember seeing it in 70mm at the Cinerama Theatre in Honolulu. It was gorgeous! There was a lot of discussion about the aspect ratio of THE LAST EMPEROR at various home video forums when everybody was very unhappy when the film's director of photography, Vittorio Storaro insisted that the film is presented in the 2,00:1 aspect ratio instead of the 2,20:1 70mm and 2.35:1 35mm ratios on the Criterion DVD and Blu-Ray. As much as I preferred the wider ratio, I must admit the composition in 2.00:1 does not look bad at all.

-Claude

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-28-2009, 10:19 PM:

The movie was meant to be watched solo with you dead center between the left and right channels. You are not permitted to so much as even turn your head. You can also watch it with headphones. [Razz]

Anyway, this is a 2.0 mix. Not 5.1. So you will have to engage the Pro Logic or DTS Neo mode ( think that's what they call DTS' equivalent of Pro Logic) on your receiver.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-28-2009, 10:31 PM:

Claude,

I don't know why they would have the sound recorded that way. Did you try using the prologic or the DTS neo6 or whatever it is called on your receiver to see if it would shift the dialog to the center.

What Joe Said.......

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-28-2009, 10:34 PM:

What you talkin about? You mean the 70mm release prints were only stereo? Did theaters fold down the dialog for the center channel? I saw this movie in 70mm at least twice, in different theaters, and I don't recall thinking Hey, that's not the usual 6-track Dolby mix. OMG I'm questioning my reality now. [Wink]

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-28-2009, 10:53 PM:

The movie is stereo but 4.0 down mixed to 2.0 but will play correctly in prologic or the DTS version of prologic. I think the 70mm mix only had mono surrounds. This is the case with the Blu-ray and regular DVD of this title.

This is why Claude:
Last Emperor Bluray Review

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-29-2009, 01:08 AM:

Mono surrounds were normal for the vast majority of 70mm 6-track Dolby Stereo mag prints. The split surround Format 43 was used very rarely throughout the 1980s'. It only started to become common for 70mm print use in the late 1980's and early 1990's when the format was on its death bed.

I'll be the first to agree Vittorio Storaro is a great cinematographer, but the guy's ego is way the hell out of this earth. This whole "everything I ever shot must be 2:1 ratio" thing is a bunch of revisionist NONSENSE. It is absolutely retarded.

Whether Storaro likes it or not, his work on The Last Emperor was indeed composed for the 2.35:1 aspect ratio, not some phoney 2:1 stupidity. It really pisses me way the hell off when someone has the audacity to say, "hey, we really need only ONE framing ratio for everything." I have only one response to that: "FUCK YOU!"

2:1 for everything is CLOSE MINDED IGNORANCE.

So. In my own humble opinion, I feel Storaro's Oscar-winning work really should be shown on Blu-ray in the original aspect ratio as what was presented in commercial movie theaters. 2:1 is NOT a theatrical format. Apocalypse Now was 2.35:1. The Last Emperor was also 2.35:1. Both had 70mm blow up prints, but both were originally shot in 'scope format in 35mm ("Technovision" to be exact).

There is growing, negative criticism about this foot-dragging from Storaro and his defenders on the 2:1 aspect ratio thing. A bunch of image detail is being deleted from the movies in order to do this stupid 2:1 ratio shit. I've seen at least a couple reviews of the new BD of The Last Emperor where they showed old laserdisc footage of the full 2.35:1 image and what has been cropped in the pan and scan 2:1 version.

Really, if 2:1 is such a great damned format, why didn't Storaro film all his movies "flat" in 1.85:1 in the first place? It's practically the same damned format as that precious 2:1! Oh, but no. We shot it first in 'scope so then we could pan and scan the image into a kinda sorta flat ratio. Storaro only seemed to figure out he liked the flat ratio more when he shot Dick Tracy and The Sheltering Sky -two "flat" ratio movies hardly anyone gives a damn about.

Oh. And the sound mix is another curiosity. I distinctly remember seeing the ads in the NY Times back in the late 1980s when I lived in New York City. Those ads clearly exclaimed "presented in 70mm 6-track Dolby Stereo." I have NEVER seen a 70mm engagement advertised as "presented in 70mm 2-track stereo" or even "presented in 70mm 4-track stereo." So what the hell is exactly going on with this crap?

Vittorio Storaro can smugly shit out some 2:1 and stereo-only judgment on any project he participated with producing. Of course, I have to ask if directors like Francis Coppola or Bernardo Bertolucci have any balls to say, "no, I want MY movie that I directed to be presented in the aspect ratio we shot 20/30 years ago! You're an employee. I am the damned BOSS!"

Storaro can make the fools frame the movies he photographed in whatever way he likes. Hell, let's have some 1:1 ratio square movies!! The square is a perfect shape. It goes with the circle. Leonardo Da Vinci even said so. There's God and harmony involved. I had this hammered into my head via numerous art history classes. So even Storaro is wrong! 1:1 ratio is the shit! So let's have every single thing ever photographed be framed in 1:1 ratio! Ben Hur? Delete 2/3 of the picture! Let's also stab out one of our eyeballs so our own eyesight can be 1:1 too!

In the end...you have to convince the customer to buy the disc. The problem is I am NOT buying some bullshit 2:1 ratio, 2-track stereo nonsense when I know the original theatrical release had something a whole lot better. NO SALE ASSHOLES. Stick that one in your cap, Storaro! The customer has a say in the deal.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-29-2009, 07:16 AM:

The Last Emperor was definitely a format 42 film...I showed it in 70mm in, at least, two venues (Jenifer and Uptown). I do not recall if the "boom" channels were used nor recall any part of the soundtrack that would have benefitted from them. So I would think that it was a 4-channel mix. I remember Amadeus also only using 4-channels on its 70mm print. 4-track was/is a viable full-coat format too so it would seem reasonable that if one is not adding boom to have used it.

Why they wouldn't take the 4-track master to make the videos is beyond me. However, Dolby 2.0 definitely exists and is a pain in the ass. The Dolby CP650 will NOT do a pro-logic decode of it either...it will only use Left and Right. The Dolby DMA8 and DMA8 Plus will do pro-logic mix downs. Also, most any consumer quality A/V receiver will do mix downs.

Its too bad on The Last Emperor...I always enjoyed both its picture and sound quality.

Steve

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-29-2009, 09:25 AM:

Just for the record I fully understand that so-called 6-Track Dolby of that era used mono surrounds. That wasn't my point.

Now if the mix was 4-channel then why in the heck would they release it to home video in 2.0. That's the question. Could the audio masters been lost or damaged or something? That seems unlikely for such a relatively recent movie that won Best Picture. [Confused]

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-29-2009, 12:39 PM:

There are a lot of whys involved on this title. Like why they only used the DTS master audio on the Blu-ray and no Dolby anything. The mono surround comment was more so a clarification to Claude whether he new it or not. I wasn't trying to correct anyone even if there were only a few stereo surround titles in the 80's. Why they chose 2.0 is any one's guess. Maybe there were issues with the discreet tracks and they had to go with a two channel stereo mix matrixed to four that was used for optical sound presentations. Maybe it was just another stupid decision made for the sound just like they did for the picture.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-29-2009, 01:34 PM:

My understanding is Criterion makes their Blu-ray discs according to the demands of the filmmakers. If someone wants to chop off parts of the picture or only have the film in mono then that's how they will master it.

Likewise, I have no ill will toward Criterion over what they're being forced to do with certain Blu-ray releases. Really, I feel bad for them over all the angry mail and online comments they have received. The flames need to be directed at the film director and its cinematographer. Kinda like what I did in my last post. I was trying to be a little over the top/funny with it like [joe]

is with so many of his posts. Not sure if that really came across.

quote: Darryl Spicer
There are a lot of whys involved on this title. Like why they only used the DTS master audio on the Blu-ray and no Dolby anything.

All Blu-ray Disc players have to feature built in decoding for both Dolby Digital and DTS data lossy formats. This is why quite a lot of movies on Blu-ray only have DTS tracks and not Dolby.

I think DTS charges lower licensing costs for DTS-HD Master Audio than what Dolby charges for Dolby TrueHD. This may be another reason why certain movie studios release some, many or even all of their titles with DTS-HD tracks.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 07-29-2009, 01:41 PM:

I was wrong, there is nothing wrong with the soundtrack of the DVD version of THE LAST EMPEROR. It only has a Pro Logic track and not 5.1. Playback is fine with dialogue coming from the centre and music and sound effects reproduced by the left, right and mono surround tracKs. It sounds great even if it is not 5.1. The DTS track however is a different matter. It is exactly as I had described and there is no back up Pro Logic track I could use to enjoy the movie. It just sounds terrible and I just don't know what to do. I bought it from Amazon and was thinking about returning it for a refund but I love the Blu Ray picture quality. After watching parts of the movie in Blu Ray and discovering how gorgeous it is, there is no way I can watch the DVD anymore. I have found the only way I can play the BD with the dialogue coming from the front centre speaker on my Denon receiver is a setting that sends all of the sound to the front centre speaker and gives me plain mono sound [Mad]

Criterion is known for producing high quality DVDs and BD's but they really screwed up badly with this movie in Blu Ray.

-Claude

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 07-30-2009, 01:54 PM:

Claude,

I looked at the review of the Last Emperor Blu-ray on Widescreen Review (they tend to be very picky about sound and picture, so if there was something amiss, they would mention it), and they do mention that the soundtrack is 2 channel stereo only.

http://www.widescreenreview.com/hddisc_detail.php?recid=11540

quote:
But, unfortunately, the presentation, while credited as stereo surround and indicated on our processor as DTS-HD Master Audio Stereo, is monaural, spread to the stereo channels.

Dolby ProLogic will steer mono signals in the fronts to the center, but in the discrete sound formats, strict decoding dictates that a mono signal spread to the left and right channels will be output in the left and right channels (if I understand the decoding process correctly).

Unless your receiver can apply some DSP effects to steer mono sound in the L/R to the Center, your center channel speaker is going to remain silent for this movie. Look through any DSP modes you might have that can forcibly derive channels of information when none are flagged in the source, a la DTS Neo 6 or Dolby ProLogic IIx.

I did some looking around and there's no shortage of complaints about this Blu-ray release, so you're not alone in your dissatisfaction.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 07-30-2009, 04:23 PM:

Thank you, Scott

I watched the movie in it's entirety last night in Blu-Ray after I had resigned myself that there is noting I can do about the sound, I ignored the problem and enjoyed seeing the movie again in awesome Blu Ray. The only thing lacking was the opportunity to see the movie in the correct 2.35:1 Technovision aspect ratio. Yes Bobby, I agree with you completely when you said Vitorio Storaro was a ego driven cinematographer who pushed his weight around when he insisted his scope pictures should be released on DVD and Blu Ray in the stupid 2,00:1 ratio. I originally thought the narrow composition was acceptable but after watching the movie last night, I saw many scenes that were terrible and looked like the 'hack' job television network and stations do when they crop scope movies and show them on television. Storaro won a Cinematography Academy Award for THE LAST EMPEROR by members of the AMPAS who all saw the film in either 2.20:1 (70mm) or 2.35:1 (35mm) ratio and NOT 2.00:00. If members saw the movie the way Storaro now insist it should be seen, I doubt he would have won the Oscar.

-Claude

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-01-2009, 03:44 PM:

Something is definitely wrong when the people who prepared THE LAST EMPEROR for release on the current DVD and Blu-Ray would not go to the trouble of remixing the soundtrack for 5.1 payback. If Warners could do an excellent job creating a 5.1 soundtrack for a mono film like DIRTY HARRY and UNiversal with VERTIGO, there is no excuse for TLE to have a lousy soundtrack with a gorgeous picture. What I find even more puzzling with the exception of WideScreen Review magazine , no one who had reviewed the movie on DVD and Blu RAy had mentioned there was a problem with the soundtrack on the discs. Do you suppose the reviewers were able to find away to playback the sound properly on their state of the art audio system?

-Claude

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-01-2009, 08:47 PM:

I can understand being miffed at the fact that they gave you a disc with what seems like worse quality than the original soundtrack, but to say that there's "something wrong with not remixing for 5.1" seems a bit much. This is like saying that there's something wrong with George Lucas if he had decided to leave his original Star Wars movies alone.

Also, the reviewers probably didn't note the soundtrack because you are more picky about sound than they are. They might not have even remembered how the movie sounded originally to compare or they might be too young to have seen it. Who knows?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-01-2009, 09:22 PM:

A good friend was one of the re-recording mixers on that film. He's extremely sound fussy and I remember the original tracks sounded great. If the disk is bad return it. No one is going to come out with a good sounding disk if folks continue to buy the status quo!

Mark

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-01-2009, 09:39 PM:

It is not the disc, Mark. If you read the Blu Ray review that WideScreen Review wrote from the link Scott had posted, it states that the disc has only a front left and front right track and that is exactly how it plays back. It sounds very weird! Because I have no problem with the gorgeous picture and all of the wonderful extra stuff that is on the disc, I will keep the disc. At least the DVD set I also have has a Pro Logic track (Right-Centre Left Surround) so I am happy plus the fact that it includes the TV version that runs about three and a half hours.

-Claude

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-01-2009, 09:57 PM:

I had the letterboxed LaserDisc of Last Emperor. My recollection is the video quality was just ok, not spectacular. Some scenes had kind of a smeared look, which I sure don't remember seeing on the 70mm blowups. The digital audio on LaserDisc was very good though.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-02-2009, 09:09 AM:

Yea, it's what ever master they used to do the disk from... probably some old 6 track mag master, obviously it or some equipment in the mix chain was not right. Thats why I said to return it. If everyone accepts the crappy audio they'll just keep on sellin em.

Mark

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 08-02-2009, 07:33 PM:

Mark,

Yes, I agree with you about making a statement about the poor sound quality of THE LAST EMPEROR by returning the disc but when no one has been complaining about it in reviews of the disc and at forums discussing the movie, I feel I am fighting a lost cause if I try. Only negative comments many have expressed about the disc was the stupid 2.00:1 aspect ratio.

Dave,

I still have the laserdisc of TLE and I believe it is the deluxe edition featuring the longer version. Because my laserdisc player is no longer in use, I cannot compare the picture and sound quality between it and the BD.

-Claude

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-03-2009, 07:49 AM:

Wait a minute....they don't need to do some pseudo 5.1 new soundtrack for this - it was never released as a theatrical 2 chn stereo -- it had at the very least a 3 front/1 surround mix even if the 70mm was only 4 tracks as Steve said. So there was an original 4 track master that could have/should have been there for the video release. So someone someplace along the line in producing this BluRay made the conscious decision to do 2 channel stereo track for the disc.

I am sure that if that decision was made out of dire necessity like David suggests, possibly because of the audio masters being lost or deteriorated or something like that, Criterion would have been very upfront about that in their promotional material and in the jacket information. They always do explain about anomalies with their releases, even down to frames needing to be cut because of bad scratches or what have you. But this seems like it was done DELIBERATELY!

Maybe the senile Storaro had his fat sticky fingers in this decision as well as his insane idea that a pan & scan 2:1 abortion is an authentic representation of what people saw in the theatrical release for which he won an Oscar. This guy needs to 1) have his Oscar immediately revoked (obviously he dupped the Academy by submitted a version to them that was not his "definitive" 2:1ar work and what he "really" intended) and 2) have his gonads pummeled by an couple of angry chimpanzees.

And I agree -- return the disc and write to Criterion and tell them that they need to be more proactive in stuff like this. Yah, yah, it's all well and good that they have as their corporate philosophy to release DVDs that conform to the director's and cinematographer's explicit intentions, but NOT when those guys are either senile or freakin insane. People want a BluRay disc that is the best represention of the movie as it was presented in the best format in movie theatres and for which it won the Academy Award. Giving us some pan and scan 2:1 cropped TV shit is a far cry from that and they should be ashamed for not having the balls to tell Stororo to go shove it, that they are not about to release some Italian TV version of this film just cause he's got it into his syphilis-ravaged brain that 2:1 all of a sudden has become the "perfect" aspect ratio.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 01-27-2019, 11:27 PM:

It has been 3464 days since the last post.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 01-27-2019, 11:27 PM:

interestingly for the 3D conversion / presentation at the 2013 Cannes Film Festival they did use the 70mm / 6-track sound elements:

"The 3D conversion of nine time Academy Award-winning film The Last Emperor from legendary director Bernardo Bertolucci. 2013 marks the 25th anniversary of the first international release of this masterpiece in 1987. A reel of the film was sent to be screened at the Cannes Opening Ceremony in 1987 as a gift from Bertolucci.

A film of unsurpassed splendour, The Last Emperor was beautifully shot with attention to the smallest detail in the production design, costume and cinematography, and the 4K 3D conversion allows an audience to really appreciate the magnificence of this cinematic experience. The sound has also been remastered from the original 6-track to make the most of Ryuichi Sakamoto’s exquisite score."

I though have no idea what the aspect ratio was

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-27-2019, 05:41 PM:

Ah...for a 3D release on BR with sound that matches the 70mm 6 tracks! Be still my heart! Really?...they did a 3D conversion for this title? It certainly is a favorite of mine and to actually get a 3D version...well it was just my birthday -- turned 78 - 12/25 (they keep putting up these decorated trees and lights on the houses for me every year...it's embarrassing). A 3D version of THE LAST EMPEROR would be a great birthday present that I definitely will get myself if they indeed release it on BR-3D; I hope it's not just something they did to impress the fu-fu elites at Cannes. But then again, NOBODY does any work on old titles unless they see making their money back by releasing it to the masses on DVD & BR.

Yah, I know, you're all moaning about converting it to 3D. To all you guys who hate 3D...just let me have this one small pleasure in my dotage.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 12-27-2019, 06:33 PM:

I did not know THE LAST EMPEROR was converted into 3D. Just like Frank, I too love 3D and would very much like to have a copy of the movie in that format on blu ray,