quote: That Guy in Forsyth

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Seriously, I realize that ALL 3-D advertising puts forth the notion that stuff will be filling your whole environment, be it in a theme park ride or a living room; but I can't help but think many people will be sorely disappointed when the flying objects are confined to that 42-inch box on the wall.

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quote: Bobby Henderson

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I think the exclusive 3D movies bundle is a very stupid idea.

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Don't worry.

Just buy the available 3D blu-ray version (anaglyph) to acquire viewing rights to the film in 3D blu-ray and download the exclusive blu-ray titles in the S3D format from the internet, which will be available the day after (or before) they are released in all pirate sites ....
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-10-2010, 02:41 PM:
 
Good 3-D can give you the illusion of things coming at you out from the screen. The paddle board scene in HOUSE OF WAYX is a classic example when I saw it in dual projection Natural Visin 3-D in the fifties. There was a similar scene in BWANA DEVIL where natives were jabbing spears at you when the were looking for lions in the Kenyan grassy countryside. In CAPTAIN EO at Disneyland West, I felt I could grasp meteor particles that seem to be floating in space right in front of me a couple of feet away. I have seen many other similar examples when I saw 15/70 IMAX documentary films in the past. Both Real D and Dolby 3-D has not been able to do that because both of the process is not as good as dual projection 3-D.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-10-2010, 05:32 PM:
 
Claude - you're not getting my meaning. The commercials show objects flying not only AT YOU, but filling the room beyond the outside borders of the TV screen. Objects floating inches and feet to the left, right, above and below the screen. Which is impossible with 3D.

It will look better in the theatre by far, for the simple reason that the screen is at least 10 times bigger than the biggest home TV, plus the room should be very dark, so more of your field of vision will be filled and you'll have less visual distractions.

quote: Bobby Henderson

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So much for a truth in advertising law suit.

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Dude, I was joking about the lawsuit. Have you NO sense of humor?
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-10-2010, 06:40 PM:
 
Mike,

I now understand what you were referring to. Lionsgate did the same thing with their theatrical and television trailers for MY BLODDY VALENTINE 3-D when they showed images that protruded out from the screen. I saw the movie in a theatre in Dolby 3-D and never saw anything like that. Do you think we b=can bring legal action against Lionsgate too?

-Claude
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 03-10-2010, 06:57 PM:
 
Nah.

We would have to nail Dimension too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7P4xW2AWyE

And half the people that have ever promoted a 3D film ...

We could though join the class action from that guy that sued the deodorant company 'cos he wasn't attracting girls like a magnet like in the commercials after 10 years of religiously using the stuff ...
 

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Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 03-10-2010, 07:01 PM:
 
Plus, when filming (or posting) for a bigger screen like IMAX, the convergence can be set to make the subjects appear closer. With smaller screens, the borders of the frame must be taken into account (called the "stereo window"), so proper convergence can't really for as an immersive 3D. Because the IMAX screen practically fills one's vision, violating the stereo window isn't so important, and much more of the image can be set to take place in negative space.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-10-2010, 07:27 PM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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The commercials show objects flying not only AT YOU, but filling the room beyond the outside borders of the TV screen. Objects floating inches and feet to the left, right, above and below the screen. Which is impossible with 3D.

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quote: Julio Roberto

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65" 3D TV's are around the corner. Just sit pretty close to them.

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Not big enough. We have a 55" at home and I was watching it this afternoon and thinking about this issue. To me the only way 3-D would be fun to watch would be if the screen covered all (or most of) the wall, and the room was pitch dark.

The way it is in a movie theatre.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-11-2010, 03:16 AM:
 
Course, as with HD-TV, the larger those 3D TV screens get, you're gonna face the resolution factor.

We don't have that all large of a front room, so we only have a 37inch 1080i unit and just by watching it, it's plenty big for the two of us.

Now, if you have a castle of a 'great room' one might have to look into projection viewing on a 100inch plus rolldown screen.
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 03-11-2010, 05:29 AM:
 
Hmmmm ... the "resolution factor"?

Theaters use a resolution of 1998x1080 (or 2048x857) and they cover "hundreds of inches of screen" ...

At home, you have 1920x1080 (if you "pan and scan a film" or watch Avatar, i.e.) and usually cover less field of view.

Movie theaters MAY have a "resolution factor" problem, not in the house ... unless you try to replicate the exact same conditions (angular perceived size) than in the theater with a large screen and sitting closer and then both have about the same "resolution factor".

Resolution in 2K (specially 3D) and HD (blu-ray) are NOT significantly different in resolution or "quality" at all (if the blu-ray is well made and the 3D DCP is your common ~100GB stuff).

But, if you must, you can also buy 70" LCD $creens today, so I'm sure some of them will be turned 3D compatible soon, like this 120hz Sony:

Sony BRAVIA XBR KDL-70XBR7 70-Inch 1080p 120Hz

With the "emergency exit" illuminated sign at home, I'm not sure there is a solution to getting the room completely dark in spite of flicking the switch ... so much better in the theater

I watch 3D all the time at home on a 72"-wide (roll down) screen and, believe me, it's plenty fun (I just sit a bit closer than I do in 2D).

We may not be all-there at home until flat TV's over 70" become common, but we'll get there sooner than later.
 

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Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 03-11-2010, 03:36 PM:
 
I know it's been mentioned that 3D advertising has always been misleading, but back in the day, in addition to breaking the borders, whatever came out of the screen could actually cast a shadow in the cinema!


 

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Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 03-11-2010, 07:22 PM:
 
Yes, and with the unremovable 3D claim in tralers and unqualified 3D promotion on posters our cinema could be sued as well.
its time to mortgage the house again to instal dci 3D.
Perhaps we should wait for the US blu-ray 3D release, book the print, buy the disc and modify our e-cinema system to show it in 3D.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-11-2010, 07:58 PM:
 
The illustration Hillary had posted was from THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LASGOON (1954) and REVENGE OF THE CREATURE which were both released in dual projection Natural Vision 3-D in the fifties. The only misleading part of the ad made it look like the movies were in scope and the shadow. The 3-D films I saw at the Liberty Theatre in Honolulu were projected in 1.33:1. There was a third "Creature" film, THE CREATURE WALKS AMONG US but that one was released in 2-D only. In a way the ad was correct because there were several segments in the film where the creature was shown swimming directly towards you. Now that the television hardware manufacturers will be releasing 3-D HD sets as well as Blu-Ray players that will be capable of 3-D playback, there is a tremendous amount of films from the fifties I want to see in 3-D again at home. such as HOUSE OF WAX, KISS ME KATE, HONDO, DIAL M FOR MURDER, INFERNO, FORT TI, THE MAZE, THOSE REDHEADS FROM SEATTLE, SANGAREE and so many others.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-11-2010, 09:55 PM:
 
...and those two "3 Stooges" shorts, "Spooks" and "Pardon my Backfire (1953) that Columbia did in 3D during this era.
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 03-11-2010, 10:47 PM:
 
Claude,

Many of the 3D films (and shorts) from the 50's have been available in 3D video format in the polarized-compatible field sequential system for a long time (since early 80's), albeit either illegally (bootlegs) or only in certain countries (Japan, most notoriously). Some of the russian 3D films from the 50's on are also around.

They used too much hyperstereo in the Return of the Creature for my liking, so I preferred the first one. Both were good.

You would've had a blast in the 3D expos that Jeff Joseph run in Los Angeles a couple of years back. They showed virtually all the 3D stuff shot in the 50's in their original dual-35mm format (some 50 titles or so among both events).

There were a couple of films I had not seen in 3D before and some 3D shorts I had not seen at all.

Most 3D films from the 50's are rather dull, though. Of course, there are a handful of truly worthit ones on their own, like House of Wax or Dial M. Many others have aged too much. Some of the musicals or comedies are, well, always welcomed. But a lot of the drama, horror, some of the westerns and some of the "sci-fi" was pretty lame. Some thrillers were ok. Some, not (like the dreadful Flight to Tangier).
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-11-2010, 11:45 PM:
 
Julio,

Yes, I was aware of the 3-D film festival held at the Egyptian Theatre several years ago and wish I could have taken off from work and flew to LA to attend the showings. By the time all of the quality stuff were first released to theatres such as KISS ME KATE, DIAL M FOR MURDER, HONDO and a few later ones, only a few cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York and a few other large markets presented them in 3-D.. Honolulu was not one of those cities These were big pictures and had their first showings here at either the Kuhio or the Waikiki (Later Waikiki #3) in glorious 2-D!

-Claude
 

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Posted by Joe Tommassello (Member # 4632) on 03-12-2010, 11:16 AM:
 
Claude - it would have been nice if you could have made it there. I was fortunate enough at the time to be able to attend. One of the titles I was most interested in seeing - and enjoyed the most - was "Dangerous Mission" with Victor Mature and Vincent Price. I had an IB 16mm print of that at one time and liked it flat and the IB Technicolor was phenomenal. The print shown at the Egyptian was an original IB print (actually TWO original IB prints) and didn't disappoint. I hope to see that on blu-ray some day.

I emailed George Feltenstein at Warner Brothers and asked if they were preparing their classic 3D catalog for BR release and never heard back. Rumors are that Dial M For Murder is being released on BR later this year. No word yet on if the 3D version is part of the plan.
 

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Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 03-12-2010, 12:23 PM:
 
> and enjoyed the most - was "Dangerous Mission"

I love this little film. Irwin Allen manages to get an avalanche, forest fire, and chase across the glaciers into this 75 minute film, along with a good story. A young Piper Laurie is HOT, hard to believe that just 20 years later she would play Carrie's Mother in Carrie. The 3D photography is excellent, although as Joe says, it also plays well in 2D. One of my life goals is to stay at the Many Glaciers Hotel in Glacier National Park, where most of the film was shot.

Dangerous Mission Trailer

Inferno was my second favorite title from those shows.

I know the person who located and put together most of the 35mm left/right pairs that were used in those 3D Expo showings, and privately got to see most of them before they permanently left the east coast.

The problem for Bluray is that the studios tend to feel that only the major well known titles will sell, and they have no interest in the many lesser, but excellent other titles. In addition, I have been told that back in the late 1990's, Paramount implemented an "asset protection program", which included cutting the best sections from their left/right negatives into one negative for DVD transfer, and disposing of the left overs. If this is so, we will never see any video of the 1950's Paramount 3D titles in 3D, or at least not with good quality.
 

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Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 03-12-2010, 12:50 PM:
 
Claude: the Creature films were shot for flat (1.85) widescreen, so that advertisement is not all that misleading. Of course, it was during the transitional phase of widescreens entering the movie theater, so likely what you saw was an open matte presentation.

Mitch: the "asset protection" program was a rumor. When we did the second Expo, Paramount was nice enough to print up several titles from the camera negs including SANGAREE and REDHEADS FROM SEATTLE.
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 03-12-2010, 02:42 PM:
 
I enjoyed Inferno better than Dangerous Mission or Second Chance.

Jeff, Bob, Danniel and the rest of the guys did a great job putting together prints of almost lost 3D films. Too bad a few of them only have parts surviving in 3D.

Hope somebody does the same for the asian's old titles (chinese/japanese/indian) films before it's too late. Some of the early european ones are also hanging from a rope.

BTW, anybody knows if the 50's stuff from Japan like Tobidashita Nichiyobi (飛び出した日曜日, 1953) or Kettō (決闘) survive in 3D?
 

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Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 03-12-2010, 02:55 PM:
 
The Toho titles have been preserved by Toho. Don't know about the Chinese films. The Italian films are supposedly in the worst condition.

Generally speaking, the foreign stuff from that era that I have seen is not particularly well shot.
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 03-12-2010, 03:12 PM:
 
Good to know.

Since Starks relocated to China I guess he kept an eye out for those. I enjoyed stuff like Duo Notte, Turco Napolitane or Ulysses, but some of the stuff is on the brink.

When Eddie Sammons was living in Spain writing his book on 3D titles, we met several times trying to uncover some of the spanish and south american titles.

During work, I was allowed to keep a telecine of the 92's expo Stereovision spanish short "Relieve Navarro" which I often don't see listed in the 3D lists and that french film from Futuroscope 3D safari.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-12-2010, 07:00 PM:
 
Jack,

You had mentioned Toho. I was not aware the Japanese were making 3-D films because the Kukusai Gekijo (Daie), Nippon (Shochiku & Toho) and Toyo (Toei) theatres in Honolulu were showing all the films they brought in in regular 2-D. If the Russians and other were making 3-D films, I am sure the Japanese did too. The Liberty Theatre where I saw almost all of my 3-D films had a standard screen and was one of the last theatres in Consolidated's circuit to get it.. By the time I saw the last film there in 3-D (THE REVENGE OF THE CREATURE), the house still had the standard screen.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 03-12-2010, 08:41 PM:
 
Claude, the two Toho films are THE SUNDAY THAT STOOD OUT (飛び出した日曜日) and I AM MARKED (私は狙われている). I don't know much about them other than I think they were both released on 4/22/1953, and that they may have been shot in 16mm and blown up to 35mm.

The next month, Shochiku Co., Ltd. released DUEL (決闘).

Have you written any articles about the movie-going experience in Hawaii during the '50s? I find stuff like that fascinating.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-12-2010, 09:08 PM:
 

quote: Ron Curran

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unremovable 3D claim in tralers and unqualified 3D promotion on posters

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quote: Monte L Fullmer

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Course, as with HD-TV, the larger those 3D TV screens get, you're gonna face the resolution factor.

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quote:

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DVB-T2: RAI Research Demonstrates Full 4K Digital Cinema Quality On Terrestrial Channels

Now that HDTV is becoming a commercial reality, the research labs of the broadcasting and consumer electronic industries are exploring future TV formats capable of providing an even more immersive and captivating experience for the viewer.

The most innovative project in this domain is the Super High Vision (SHV) project from the Japanese public broadcaster, NHK, which offers an outstanding user experience with the so-called 8K format, which delivers a picture resolution of 7680 x 4320 pixels, equal to 16 times that of today’s HDTV.

At IBC 2008 NHK, RAI and the BBC demonstrated the delivery of 8K SHV pictures via satellite using DVB-S2 technology (‘Super Future - DVB-S2 Enables 140 Mbps Super Hi-Vision by Satellite at IBC 2008’, DVB-SCENE No. 27).

In the last two years, a clear trend in the increase of display dimensions and resolution has been noticeable at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. Several leading CE manufacturers have presented prototype fat screen displays with 4K resolution and dimensions of 60 to 180 inch diagonal.

In September 2009, in the framework of its eightieth year anniversary celebrations, the RAI Research Centre demonstrated the live transmission of 4K video over a digital terrestrial channel in the Turin area. Why 4K resolution? This is the highest quality format currently used for digital cinema, and is also the ideal resolution for the largest display we would dare to hang on a living room wall (i.e., 80 to 100cm high) without raising too many objections from our partners.

This is also the maximum resolution we can afford on a digital terrestrial channel using today’s most advanced technologies with MPEG-4 picture coding and the DVB-T2 transmission format.

For this purpose, a twelve minute 4K video clip was specially produced by the RAI Production Centre in Turin using a mix of artistic and real-life shots in Turin.

Shooting and Post Production

While 4K production for cinema is not revolutionary, it is for television. The purpose of the 4K production at RAI was to explore the typical conditions for television production in the feld, employing TV professionals limited to short production times in mostly uncontrolled environments typical of live scenes.

A Red One, 4K format camera (4096 x 2304 pixel at 25 frames/s in progressive scan), with mounted Angenieux zoom-lenses (HR 25-250 T3.5 and 17-102 T2.9 models) was used for the shoot. The Red One is equipped with a 12 Mpixel Bayer sensor (same size as Super 35mm format) and the video signal is compressed with JPEG2000 technology at 288 Mbit/s and stored on embedded hard disk drives. For monitoring purposes only an HD version live signal (1280 x 720p50) was available to the camera operators and the artistic assistants.

The post production was performed in two stages: after capture, the video material was offine post produced and edited with special effects in HD format (1920 x 1080) using an Avid Media Composer. The project was then imported onto the Avid DS platform for colour grading (correction) and conforming (fnalisation) and applied to the 4K native material. A signifcant amount of time was required for final rendering.

Encoding & Transmission

For delivering the content, state-of-the-art technologies were required for encoding, transmission, decoding and display. Therefore, the choice was the newly born DVB-T2 standard which provides suffcient capacity to deliver 4 HDTV (1920 x 1080) signals in a terrestrial UHF channel. This is equivalent to an aggregate resolution of 3840 x 2160, which is actually very similar to the resolution provided by the Red One 4K camera. So, after scaling from 4096 x 2304 to 3840 x 2160 pixels with 25 Hz progressive scanning, the resulting video clip was then split into four full-HDTV (1920 x 1080) streams, each one software encoded using H.264 technology (High Profle Level 4). The four 1920 x 1080 streams resulting from the encoding were then multiplexed to produce a multiprogram Transport Stream.

Different confgurations of useful bit rates were produced - 36 and 45 Mbit/s. Particular attention was taken to maintain the synchronisation of the streams throughout the whole end-to-end chain in order to make the 4-quadrant splitting of the picture undetectable on screen. In the near future, the use of H.264 with High Profle Level 5.1, currently under testing, will be capable of handling the “...the 4K production format opens the possibility of making high value productions, such as sports, dramas and documentaries in the best possible quality...”

Gino Alberico and Daniele Airola Gnota, RAI-Radiotelevisione Italiana, R&D Department

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quote: Julio Roberto

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Or get a 3D home projector (or a pair of 2D ones).

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Julio, this is what I intend to do. My question is, how does one separate the Left eye and Right eye signals from the HDMI output, or will 3D BluRay players have dual outputs, one for each eye. Dual projectors makes the most sense to me, in that 1) you get twice the brighness and 2) you can use polarization so that you don't need expensive active shutter glasses. It would be nice if the system could double flash in a way that will leave both left eye and right eye images on the screen at the same time. Right now I take it that the output is designed for alternating frame, albeit multiple times. If both images stayed on the screen together, it would avoid the temporal displacement that some people cannot tolerate very well, and add to the apparant brightness. Sure would be nice it the BluRay players could select all that stuff on a simple on screen menu.

My screen will be ten foot across, and with the lights out, I expect it to be as impressive as my local theatre presentation, only brighter.
 

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Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 03-14-2010, 09:47 AM:
 
With on of the 3D-enabled home projectors, it's just a matter of shooting up to a white screen with shutter glasses.

But with dual projection polarized on a silver screen, you'll have to wait until someone comes out with a demultiplexer external box, as I don't think any of the 3D blu-ray players are implementing dual HDMI ouput. But some models in the future may, as blu-ray player manufacturer's are aware this is a desired feature by some clients and they have hinted it as one option.

When/if any of those options come out, they'll hopefully include dual-frame output buffers for keeping both eyes in sync.

Meanwhile, you could just do an in-house demultiplexer with a computer, but it would require bypassing the HDCP protection, which may be illegal in some countries. Just use software like AnyDVD to move the audio/video streams from the blu-ray disc to your PC, demultiplex the streams with freeware software and use the cheap stereoscopic player to route the outputs to dual DVI/HDMI video cards (plenty of cheap ones in the market today). That will keep both eyes in sync. The solution is under $150/$300 depending on what PC you already have. Or free if you already have the software/hardware needed.
 

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