Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: REAL Technicolor - 10 Commandments rules, African Queen sucks

This is topic REAL Technicolor - 10 Commandments rules, African Queen sucks in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Joe Tommassello (Member # 4632) on 04-03-2010, 06:33 PM:

Every year I look and every year I have been disappointed until now. I am fifteen minutes into the first HD broadcast of "The Ten Commandment" (east coast). Of course it has compression and DNR and any other anomalies inherent in cable TV delivery. Still it has at least the quality of an upconverted DVD and is by far the best I have ever seen it look on TV. Also this is the first year the original aspect ratio is used. If you read this in time you may enjoy taking a look.

What struck me most was the gorgeous Technicolor. Unlike "Gone With The Wind", "The Godfather" films and more recently "The African Queen" there is no brown tint to the picture. I am increasingly believing that the people "restoring" films are making "artistic" decisions. I have seen GWTW in every conceivable film and video format. It wasn't until the "restoration" it turned brown! The Derann Super 8 had better color!

I watched AQ on a disc from Netflix. As phenomenal a movie as it is I will NOT be buying it at any price. Hepburn constantly looks like she just got out of one of those old spray-on tanning booths that turned you orange. Everytime I see it I will be annoyed thinking how great it could have been.

(Note to Paramount...When you put out the BR of Ten Commandments don't fuck it up like you did Godfather and African Queen.)

Gotta run...Moses' mom is about to get crushed between two giant stones! Oooohhhh...the suspense!

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 04-03-2010, 07:55 PM:

quote:
I am fifteen minutes into the first HD broadcast of "The Ten Commandment" (east coast). . . . Still it has at least the quality of an upconverted DVD

I dunno if this is really an HD transfer. In fact, what you went on to say is probably closer to the truth, it looks to me like a broadcast upconversion of the standard-def DVD master. I know ABC has been hocking Paramount for a real HD copy of this title, but there was some resistance on the studio's part because they didn't think some of the existing elements would do it justice. At least they got them something better than the old 4:3 copy they ran for years.

Oh, and pesach shalom to all.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-03-2010, 08:57 PM:

Joe,

When you posted yoUr remarks about THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, it was only 12.32 in the afternoon and it is 3:58 right now here in Hawaii and the show will not air for another two hours. on our ABC affiliated station. I will take a look at it before I watch some Blu Ray discs I just received in the mail from Blockbusters. Yes, I agree with you about the up converted DVD image in HD. I do not agree with you about THE AFRICAN QUEEN however. In my opinion, Paramount did a fantastic job with the restoration and I was more than pleased. For many years, I thought the color of the film was drab but I was very surprised to see how vibrant it was. Please keep in mind, I grew up with three strip Technicolor and I know how it should look and TAQ does look like IB. I do agree with you about the screwed up color with THE GODFATHER films on Blu Ray.. I hate those red hues with a deep passion! [Mad]

-Claude

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-04-2010, 10:34 AM:

Don't forget William Friedkin's redux on "The French Connection" in Blu-ray.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-04-2010, 06:44 PM:

Joe,
GWTW was intended to have a muted color look to it. There is nothing about the days in that story that were colorful!

I have the preview to Ten Commandments in I.B., it's almost as long as the movie is... color is saturated and magnificent. But those were colorful times...

Mark

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 04-04-2010, 07:17 PM:

When I watchedd it last year, it was only the "8 Commandments" -
They cut two out to make room for commercials. . . . . [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 04-04-2010, 08:55 PM:

Mark,

Although many DP's considered her a big pain in the ass in 1939, Natalie Kalmus had a lot of power making sure Technicolor was subdued and not as bright and colorful as it became in later years when others took over the job as Technicolor Consultant.

Regarding THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, I still find it kind of odd to listen to the overture - Mr. DeMille's Speech and finally the Movie in that order. I feel the speech should have been first and the curtain closes and the house light turned up a little bit while the overtiure plays and the curtain opens slowly as soon as the specially designed Paramount logo flashes on the screen. I know many of you will differ with me but I think it would have been better and more dramatic if they did it the way I prefer. If you went to a musical play or a opera, you will never hear the overture played first and than someone make a public announcement before the musical or opera resumes.

-Claude

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-04-2010, 09:06 PM:

I saw The Ten Commandments on our screen, from a near-new print, in 1990. I haven't been able to enjoy it on the small screen since... too bad we didn't have our current sound system then.

Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 04-05-2010, 10:59 PM:

The Original LaserDisc release of The TEN COMMANDMENTS had Demilles Curtain call at the beginning. Then the overture & The Movie. I agree with Claude. This seems to be the logical way to present this. When I ran the "new & Improved" Super VistaVision version (Anamorphic 2:35) in the late 80's I duplicated this presentation order & got patron complaints as they said it was jarring. I didn't think so but,thats me. The only cool thing about this scope release is it started with the Demille segment windowboxed 1:37. The screen then opened up & widened to Scope. A very ohhh & ahhh effect even if it was wrong.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-06-2010, 10:46 AM:

This is how "The Ten Commandments" should be shown or presented.

From the man

Posted by Joe Tommassello (Member # 4632) on 06-11-2010, 11:20 AM:

I've had a little more experience with the color in AQ so I thought I'd stir it up again.

After Claude's review - and before I returned the disc to Netflix - I readjusted my TV a bit to make the color a little cooler. Upon reviewing the disc it was a little better. However...

TCM showed it in the last week or so and the color was MUCH BETTER than the "restored" disc. I am still not convinced someone didn't make an overly-artistic choice in browning it up.

I am curious to take another look at Gone With The Wind since changing my color settings...but I don't think it will at all help the hopelessly orange "Godfather" set.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-02-2010, 11:52 PM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
I feel the speech should have been first and the curtain closes and the house light turned up a little bit while the overtiure plays and the curtain opens slowly as soon as the specially designed Paramount logo flashes on the screen.

I'd have to disagree there. The overture is supposed to make sure people realize the movie is about to start and to take their seats. If you started out cold with the speech, people would be milling about and talking, and ruin the first part of the speech.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-03-2010, 02:19 PM:

I have a 35mm I.B. preview to Ten Commandments. It's a long preview in itself... about 10 inutes in length. Narrated and a short history lesson by the master himself... C.B. DeMille. You can see all the good parts of the film in this one reel and no need to sit though 12 reels of boreing soap opera!

Oh, and did I say the color is incredible????

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-03-2010, 05:03 PM:

I have some clips from my 1972, 12 reel running of the movie (had to repair some real cheesy 'wet' splices that were horribly done) where it was still IB dye transfer stock, and it was a joy to run it for it was totally sharp to focus on the screen.

Just amazing how sharp the image was on the film itself..

..and I had my masking tabs to 1.85:1 for this run.

-Monte

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 07-03-2010, 10:33 PM:

The DVD of THE TEN COMMANDMENTS is just absolutely stunning when it is up converted and viewed on my Samsung 1080p HDTV. If it can look this good from a DVD, I wonder how much better it will be on Blu-Ray because it is almost near perfect as it is.

-Claude

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-04-2010, 09:54 PM:

The only bad thing I remember about "Commandments" on the big screen was, in the scenes where Moses is building the new city, the green screen edge effects are pretty noticeable. For example, when the master builder waves the signal flags in the air, watch the flag. It's pretty obvious on the DVD too on a large screen, actually.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-05-2010, 11:21 AM:

Mike, In those days they hadn't even thought of Green Screen... Disney had the Sodium Light process working in the early 60's though but I am not sure it was usable on color cinematography or not... remember most of those early 60's Disney films were black and white. In the days when 10 Commandments was filmes "traveling mattes" or "glass shots" were the norm for effects work. Hitchcock used many "glass shots in his films. Most notable are some of the views of the UN building in North By Northwest.

Mark

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-05-2010, 05:27 PM:

True, I didn't think about that movie pre-dating the green screen. Well, whatever they used, in those city building scenes it's pretty noticeable!

Posted by Joe Tommassello (Member # 4632) on 07-06-2010, 11:02 AM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
I wonder how much better it will be on Blu-Ray

Claude - Since next year is the 55th Anniversary of it's release - and Hollywood seems to seize upon such facts for their marketing purposes - I expect it won't be too long before we'll get to see just how good "The Ten Commandments" looks on blu-ray! So let it be written...

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 07-06-2010, 02:17 PM:

TEN COMMANDMENTS used the original blue screen process. The problem was that blurred edges of objects in motion could not have any transparence. If you look at single frames, it usually looks like a photo cut out with scissors.

Years later, they invented something called the colour difference travelling matte process that did allow for transparent rendering of water, smoke and semi-transparent textiles. All processes are explained in Raymond Fielding's THE TECHNICQUE OF SPECIAL EFFECTS (Focal Press).

TC has a lot of terrible blue screen shots, they were not given enough time to do it over and over until it was as good as possible.
When Heston pulls aside a curtain to reveal the city he is building for his father, the matte line is really annoying.
Shiny rounded objects like Yul Brynner's helmet were a serious problem. They did reflect the blue backing so more of the foreground figure was cut away than necessary. You can see the effect when Brynner stops his chariot close to the parted sea.

However, I never found these things distracting because TC has its own strange comic book look, with crazy colors and strange lighting. I never felt it was meant to look realistic.

Actually, it's quite amazing what they did in a non-standard format (VistaVision) with countless matte and counter-matte films, fighting the problems of registration and matte bleeding because the acetate stock changed measurements during processing.

Most rear projection is excellent in TC, look at the shot with the women watching Moses parting the sea.

If you want to know more, check out CINEMAGIC #31 + #32, they had an excellent in-depth article about visual effects for TC with many photos I never saw anywhere else.

Cinemagic #31/32

Posted by Richard P. May (Member # 3598) on 07-07-2010, 09:50 AM:

This discussion about TEN COMMANDMENTS is interesting, and to my knowledge, correct.
TC was photographed in VistaVision, which is single strip Eastman Color. If you want to see some really messy matte work, look at an actual 3-strip Technicolor show, such as QUO VADIS.

Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 07-09-2010, 11:07 AM:

That's right, QUO VADIS has some really bad blue screen shots, especially in the "chariot race" sequence. BluRayReviews.ch has a screen shot in their reviews.

QUO VADIS BR review

In AFRICAN QUEEN, the scene where they have go through the rapids always puts me out of the picture for a minute or so. Really annoying fringing. Even back projection like in RIVER OF NO RETURN would have looked more convincing.