Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DTS master audio is now the standard?

This is topic DTS master audio is now the standard? in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000904

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 11-09-2010, 01:31 AM:

What's up with this?

Almost every new Bluray being release is coming with only DTS Master Audio and no english DD version. The older titles and tvs shows have DD.

So if you want to watch the movie, you must watch it in DTS. This really sucks!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-09-2010, 04:19 AM:

Why? Good luck finding a receiver that has Dolby TrueHD that DOESN'T also have DTS HD Master Audio. Also, good luck finding a low-end receiver that doesn't feature both Dolby Digital and DTS. It certainly isn't like Dolby TrueHD sounds any better.

Time for you to upgrade.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-09-2010, 07:29 AM:

quote: Tom Petrov
no english DD version

Tom -- you're in Canada -- just watch the French version! [Razz]

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 11-09-2010, 11:59 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Why? Good luck finding a receiver that has Dolby TrueHD that DOESN'T also have DTS HD Master Audio. Also, good luck finding a low-end receiver that doesn't feature both Dolby Digital and DTS. It certainly isn't like Dolby TrueHD sounds any better.

Time for you to upgrade.

With all the space on a bluray there should be no reason why we can't have both sound formats. We should get to choose which one we want to watch.

Avatar for instance has Master Audio and Dolby Digital 5.1

quote:
Tom -- you're in Canada -- just watch the French version! [Razz]

Yeah real funny! lol..

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 11-09-2010, 12:54 PM:

DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD are both lossless codecs, so unless something has gone wrong with the decoding the end result should be identical with either codec. I believe that Blu Ray producers prefer DTS these days because it is backward compatible: a single bitstream will provide a lossless track for folks with relatively current home theaters with DTS-HD capability, and a "core" DTS track for anyone with legacy equipment with DTS decoding. With Dolby TrueHD you still are forced to include an AC3 track.

Full disclosure though, since DTS sold off the cinema business (I work for Datasat on the cinema side) I'm not as current on happenings on the consumer codecs as I once was.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-09-2010, 06:29 PM:

quote: Tom Petrov
With all the space on a bluray there should be no reason why we can't have both sound formats.

There's no reason for including DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD versions of the same audio track on a Blu-ray disc other than pleasing fanboys of either format. Both formats are lossless and deliver the same level of audio quality. Both have provisions for backward compatibility with older home theater equipment.

FWIW, a few Blu-ray discs do have DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD versions of the primary track. Close Encounters of the Third Kind is one example. The bass levels on the DTS track are substantially louder.

All Blu-ray players have requirements to support built-in decoding of DTS and Dolby Digital audio formats as well as offer basic audio output. That's in addition to the usual digital output options via optical or coaxial connections and HDMI. No one is going to be stuck with silence using a Blu-ray player and discs featuring only DTS-encoded audio tracks.

On top of that most standalone Blu-ray players, as well as the Playstation 3, can be connected to old standard definition TV sets. They have video outputs available and can be set to output 480p.

DTS has seemingly overtaken Dolby lately on the Blu-ray front for a number of reasons. Some people suggest DTS' licensing fees are less costly than Dolby's, although I don't know if that's really true. Judging by activity on forums like Blu-ray.com DTS seems to enjoy a more vocal fan following than Dolby. DTS has always marketed itself as a higher quality alternative to Dolby's audio compression formats on 35mm film prints, Laserdiscs, DVDs and Blu-ray discs. DTS was also used on music CDs and 70mm film prints. Although DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete wasn't used on very many DVDs its existence made a positive impact for DTS' public image.

I think DTS helped at least a little bit in tilting the balance in favor of Blu-ray in the format war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Most of the movies on HD-DVD were limited to audio encoded in the lossy Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital Plus audio formats. That includes most of the HD-DVD titles from Universal Studios, one of the backers of DTS. Lossy DTS was used on some HD-DVDs. Not many featured DTS-HD Master Audio. Many more movies on Blu-ray featured DTS-HD Master Audio tracks, as well as Dolby TrueHD and uncompressed Linear PCM due to the higher capacity.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 11-09-2010, 06:50 PM:

AFAIK neither DTS nor Dolby charges a licensing fee to content producers for authoring DVD or Blu Ray discs. They sell the encoding software to anyone who wants it, and then make the bulk of their revenue licensing the decoding technology to the consumer electronics manufacturers.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-09-2010, 10:50 PM:

Daniel is exactly right. You buy something that encodes Dolby AC3 (or whatever) you can use it on whatever you like and sell it without worrying about Dolby or DTS suing you. I own Compressor for Dolby Digital and SurCode for DTS.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-09-2010, 10:58 PM:

That's interesting. But are licensing fees involved if you want to use the appropriate sound format logos from DTS and/or Dolby on the product packaging and in the disc's audio menus?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-09-2010, 11:16 PM:

I think you are allowed to use the logo on the packaging. I recall reading that somewhere.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-09-2010, 11:39 PM:

I can't believe any one here is even using a receiver these days... That is so 1970's! These days many high end manufacturers make preamps with all that gobbledegoop in them. Guys... get with it!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-09-2010, 11:44 PM:

A pre-amp and separate power amps is a pretty 1970s thing too. It reminds me of the Pioneer "Spec 1" and "Spec 2" separate pre-amp and power amp my father bought over 30 years ago when we were stationed in Japan. My mother was pretty pissed about it because those things were fairly expensive.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-10-2010, 01:09 AM:

If I were going to go the separates route, I'd get cinema sound equipment (at least the amps). At least I'd know I wouldn't be getting raped on the price like you do with high-end home gear.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-10-2010, 06:07 AM:

Yeah...actually "separates" is more of a '60s notion. Receivers came in to prominence in the '70s. With "integrated amps" (preamp/amp but no tuner) also coming in the '70s/'80s. You could always get separates (I did) in those decades but it was often the "high-end" that allowed you to do that. I tended to spend more on the preamp that had my features...then chose the amplifiers that fit what I needed and save a bit on the Tuner (it just a radio for cripes sake!).

As for reproducing current video crap. Very few make A/V preamps, actually. They all have A/V receivers. Onkyo is a notable exception that has a Prosumer preamp that has both RCA and XLR outputs to work in either environment.

To be honest...I really want separates there too! More and more, all one needs is an HDMI/DVI switcher and then a suitable audio decoder. The problem is getting a cost effective separate solution as compared to an A/V Receiver/Preamp.

One thing the Gefen Pro 2 box does is strip the audio out for you though I don't think it does the wiz-bang audios (True HD or Master)

Steve

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-10-2010, 08:45 AM:

The DMA8+ doesn't decode DTS anything (of course), so what happens if someone ends up showing one of these disks in a cinema (with proper licensing, etc.)? Presumably, the user either needs a player with built-in DTS decoding or is stuck with the L/R analog outputs, correct?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-10-2010, 09:42 AM:

No...the least common denominator format is always an AC3 form of Dolby digital so fear not. Believe it or not, the HDMI standard is such that it only outputs what it is asked for! So, if nothing asks for AC3...it does not output it...if that is what is asked for...it will have it. Most players have optical and/or coax digital audio outputs...they can always be used.

Steve

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 11-10-2010, 12:00 PM:

I believe you can find Blu Ray discs where the feature has *only* a DTS-HD MA track (no AC3) for the feature. This sounds scary until you remember that the Blu Ray standard requires that a Blu Ray player be able to decode at least the core DTS track. So at worst you'll get a decoded DTS lossy core sent out over the HDMI, or if you don't have HDMI mixed down to stereo and sent out the RCA jacks.

Bobby - on the licensing question, at least for DTS you don't have to pay even to use the logos on the disc packaging. I believe they do require that you register the title in question with them, so they can add to their database of content with DTS tracks included.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-10-2010, 02:59 PM:

I think the "core" audio does indeed come out of the optical/coax outputs. One is never required to use the analog outputs (lacking HDMI).

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 11-10-2010, 03:14 PM:

Steve's right. The analog outputs come into play in a very specific circumstance, in which a user has no DTS decoder in their receiver and there is no AC3 track on the disc.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-10-2010, 03:31 PM:

The DVD-V format had backward compatibility requirements of either Dolby AC-3 or Linear PCM. DTS was an alternative format.

On Blu-ray, DTS decoding support in hardware is required (in addition to mandatory hardware support for Dolby Digital and LPCM). All Blu-ray players must be able to decode and output at the very least the DTS backward compatible core track if not offer full decoding various output options for the DTS-HD formats. Some Blu-ray players have analog line outs for 5.1 and 7.1 connections.

A lot of movies on Blu-ray feature the primary track only in DTS audio formats. A few even have all the supplemental tracks encoded in DTS.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-10-2010, 06:46 PM:

My media player will not output DTS, so when I play RHPS I will have to play it off the disc through a BluRay player as there is no 5.1 Dolby track.

Sucky. Blu Rays should have 5.1 tracks for both formats.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-10-2010, 07:33 PM:

Just get a less-shitty Blu-ray player that has line outs for each channel. You get what you pay for.

Not sure what your media player is, but it clearly sucks.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 11-10-2010, 11:20 PM:

quote: John Wilson
when I play RHPS

What is RHPS?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-10-2010, 11:43 PM:

Some of the Blu-ray playback setups used by personal computer manufacturers need very serious improvement in a few areas -proper DTS support being one of them. But this is nothing new. Computer companies have had a decade of practice goofing up computer-based DVD playback. Why ruin an emerging tradition?

Most new computers (regardless of desktop, notebook, netbook, tablet, etc. form factor) have no real sound card installed. Instead, they typically have a cheap chip integrated into the motherboard with good enough to get by function. When such computers also come equipped with a BD burner or BD/DVD combo drive you run into trouble on the playback end with sound. DTS often isn't supported and chances are good none of the high bitrate (24/96) modes in any format are supported either. So, if you buy a computer with Blu-ray playback capability you have to make sure the stupid thing has a sound card with up to date functions AND proper compatibility with the BD drive.

Since personal computers have to use software-based players to run Blu-ray movies the software often has to be frequently updated. One of the computers in my office has a BD burner. I swear, every time I put a Blu-ray based movie in that thing it has to download some update weighing 20MB-50MB before the disc will play. That sucks.

Maybe this is one reason why Apple doesn't want to do anything with Blu-ray. I really think it has more to do with money and politics. But the "PITA" factor for users is a legit concern.

I'm glad I have my Playstation 3.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-11-2010, 01:05 AM:

I don't understand why any computer with a digital output can't output DTS. I can take a DTS-encoded CD, put it in my Mac, open the disc image and literally drag a track to the desktop (which copies it), double click on the file (which Quicktime thinks is a stereo 44.1 16-bit AIFF file), click play and the full 6-track DTS audio is output via my optical connection to my receiver, everything intact. All John's media player needs to do is to output the lossy core stream through his optical output and there ya have it... 6 track DTS audio on RHPS. It would probably take less than 10 minutes for the developer to code. It's the developer who fails, not the Blu-ray format. He should write a letter.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-11-2010, 12:45 PM:

I agree. Unfortunately, too often various software engineers and bean counters insist on goofing up the works just do something their own way rather than developing the product from the customer/user's point of view. To complicate matters further most pieces of computer hardware and software are developed in multiple countries -so language and culture barriers add even more chances to goof up the product.

This is a widespread problem on the PC platform and a fundamental reason why Apple seems to have such an easy time selling its products. Apple is one of the few computer/electronics companies out there that makes at least some effort to design products from the customer's point of view. If only Steve Jobs could get over a couple issues (negative stances on Blu-ray, Adobe, etc.) Apple would be kicking even more ass.

To get into the nuts and bolts thing with DTS on Windows PCs, integrated motherboard sound chips sometimes won't support decoding or output of any DTS audio format. Further, they'll sometimes monkey around with a Linear PCM bit stream (adding in DSP effects and other bullshit) and that totally corrupts audio output from a DTS encoded music CD. I have a few DTS encoded music CDs that I would like to rip to an external hard drive and play back from there, but Windows Media Player and Nero both won't rip the tracks correctly.

DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD obviously add even more compatibility issues in computer-based playback. The computer's sound card can be a major stumbling block for computer-connected surround speakers. And then the software Blu-ray player may have serious limitations on what it can output via HDMI to a real home theater setup.

This is probably yet another area where it's better to build your own PC with hand-picked components rather than buy a brand name system.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-11-2010, 02:17 PM:

If you want to properly rip a DTS audio CD, find someone with a Mac or go into an Apple store with the CD and a USB flash drive with lots of space. Plug in the flash drive and wait for it to mount on the desktop. Create a new folder by right clicking the mouse (first option). Insert the CD, quit iTunes or any of that bullshit if it starts up. Double click on the CD itself which should be on the desktop. Drag the tracks of the songs you want to the folder you created. Drag the folder to the flash drive. Eject the drive by dragging it to the trash. Delete the folder and empty the trash. Go home and copy the folder over to your PC. The files will be AIF format but that shouldn't be a problem. You can even transcode to WAV and all of the data will remain intact (granted, I've only ever transcoded audio formats with Quicktime so be sure to use that). Hell, you could probably just change the extension from AIF to WAV and it'd work.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-11-2010, 04:10 PM:

I'll have to try out that method if I get the chance. Ultimately, I'd like the audio tracks from the DTS CDs to be playable from an external hard disc drive. The CDs would have a proper back-up and I wouldn't have to screw around with swapping discs when playing the music on my surround setup.

One of the big problems is various media organizing apps (like Windows Media Player) insert extra data to the WAV files in order to add track names, album cover art, etc. whenever you want to play any of the music on that hard disc from your computer. That extra stuff either corrupts the entire track or at least prevents the decoder from properly identifying the song as being DTS encoded. DTS encoded CDs aren't very common, but at least several dozen titles have been released. It would only make sense for the various software/hardware companies to understand the need of including the compatibility.