Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Do modern home audio soundtracks suck?

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Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 05-14-2011, 11:28 PM:

I have been watching a number of my older laserdisc movies. Movies that were obviously made before the year 2000. I have been noticing that some of the more modern movies seem to be lacking richness or depth in the soundtracks compared to the older tacks. .

I just watched the movie TRON Legacy. It is 7.1 with Master Audio. Yes, the sound was coming from all over the place but it just sounded tinny and overdone or artificial. Its kind of like they are getting carried away.

I am kind of worried about my Bluray of Air America...it is 7.1 DTS MA...but will it be any good.

I have a few questions.

Do they alter the soundtrack for home video?

If they did, did they alter the tracks during the LD era?

I am wondering if it is the modern sound mixes or the delivery method?

Also, for the first time ever, I am starting to turn off AC-3 in favour of the Digital Tracks containing Dolby Surround for my LDs. Its seems to me to be more fuller.

This is not an attack on digital sound. My Titanic, English Patient, Avatar BR, Shine are all outstanding.

What do others think?

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 05-15-2011, 08:01 PM:

Supposedly many DVD soundtracks are dumbed-down for home use. Some 5.1 tracks are done so that they will still sound 'good' when downmixed to 2-channel (reason why some DVDs instead have a separate Pro-Logic track along with the 5.1.) I just try not to think about it as it drives me nuts [uhoh]

Laserdisc AC3 and DTS tracks were generally closer to the theatrical mixes, since they didn't want to waste time re-mixing them and those who could play them probably had the right equipment to handle them anyways (at least you couldn't play those in 2-channel or mono without really trying!)

Posted by Jeff Kane (Member # 6372) on 07-15-2011, 02:02 PM:

You thought Tron:Legacy sounded tinny and overdone? I'll grant you it was a seriously 'active' soundtrack but tinny isn't the term I'd use. In fact it's probably one of the most bass-heavy soundtracks I've ever heard! First time anything's ever made the door to the theater rattle against the seal!

The music definitely has a lo-fi quality to it but that was an artistic choice and is just Daft-Punk's 'sound'. I have noticed the DTS-MA and DolbyHD soundtracks tend to be quieter for some reason.

It could also be the equipment not handling DTS-MA properly. Try telling the player to output DTS Core, DD or PCM and see what happens.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-15-2011, 03:00 PM:

Far more often than not the limits of one's own home theater system and how it is set up and maintained plays more into how movies sound than the audio data on the disc. Complaints about lack of thump in certain movies could turn out to be a blown speaker driver, failing amplifier or some other problem.

Then there's the issue of taste. What one person considers a great sounding mix may seem like crap to another listener.

I personally don't have many complaints at all about current movie mixes as opposed to those in the past. Sound designers certainly have far more capable tools now than what existed 10 or 20 years ago.

My biggest complaint with audio these days has to do with the music industry. Most popular music is mixed and mastered with the gain turned up so loud all the peaks in the wave form are clipped. The practice of clipping the wave form literally deletes audio detail. It degrades audio quality.

I don't know if this idiotic practice is seeping into movie and TV audio production.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-15-2011, 07:46 PM:

The Dolby Digital on DVDs and LDs was way too compressed, and sounded thin. I always remember when I got my first DVD player. I played a DVD and then an LD. The CD quality audio from the LD blew away the DD from the DVD.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-15-2011, 08:42 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
My biggest complaint with audio these days has to do with the music industry. Most popular music is mixed and mastered with the gain turned up so loud all the peaks in the wave form are clipped. The practice of clipping the wave form literally deletes audio detail. It degrades audio quality.

The Loudness War

Bobby, you also forgot to mention that damned Autotune that is INTENTIONALLY being overadjusted so talentless people can pretend that they can sing. [Mad]

Getting back to movies though, many home video releases are EXACTLY the way they were in the theaters. Unfortunately some ARE "remastered" for video. One good example that comes to mind is the recent Hairspray mix. The video mix is pure crap.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 07-15-2011, 11:55 PM:

The great thing about the loudness war is that everyone who reads the wikipedia article thinks they are an expert.

The severity of this problem is greatly exaggerated, and in many cases of modern music it is an aesthetic consideration.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-16-2011, 11:52 AM:

No, this really isn't an aesthetic consideration. There is nothing subjective about raising the audio gain way too high. It is a practice that is just plain stupidly wrong. The practice is there to satisfy idiots who cannot seem to adjust a volume knob on their own stereo system.

If you have an audio editing application and access to old music CDs (ones made in the 1980s up to the early 1990s) you can do a visual comparison between how the wave forms appear with those songs versus the ones from new CDs.

For example, I can open a song from the 24K Ultradisc II version of Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon. There is zero clipping of the audio. The entire wave form fits within the frame. Just about any new rock or pop CD made in the last 15 or so years is engineered much louder. When you import one of those .WAV files into the audio editor you'll see many of the peaks rise way beyond the top boundary of the window. The peaks are deleted when that happens.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-16-2011, 01:01 PM:

Clipping is the new distortion. Remember back when sound mixers would intentionally overmodulate the recordings to give the illusion of loudness?

All it gave me the illusion of was a cheap stereo that was being played louder than it was capable of.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-16-2011, 06:35 PM:

A record producer I worked with one time told me this is happening because each producer wants their stuff to sound the loudest on the LA radio stations. I have not bought a CD in years (or downloaded music) because 1) I cannot stand to listen to clipped to hell crap, 2) I have not heard anything in years that I would spend money on. It's all very badly recorded CRAP.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-17-2011, 01:33 AM:

Tom Petrov, I have a few questions for you. Please answer them as that is what is expected when questions are directed towards you. Anyway, without further ado, here they are:

1. Do you have the low frequencies from any speakers in your sound system clipped and routed to the subwoofer when in discrete modes (non-Pro Logic)? If so, don't do that. Get full range speakers for every single channel. Only send discrete subwoofer information to the subwoofer.

2. Have you EQ'd your system and properly set all levels with an SPL meter or do you just press the THX button and assume everything will automatically be made as good as it can possibly be? Ever wonder why real movie theaters don't have THX buttons that "accomplish" the same thing? Because it's a ridiculous notion, that's why.

3. Is your comment about Air America a question? If so, it needs a question mark.

That said, I thought Tron Legacy sounded pretty damn good. However I recently rented the Tron (original 1982) DVD and it sounded like complete ASS! The subwoofer is almost always on and it is mixed far, far too loudly. It's really ridiculous. I'd rather listen to it in mono with cassette tape quality than the remix they did. I don't know if the Blu-ray version has the same shitty sound mix or not.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 07-17-2011, 04:17 AM:

quote:
No...t... an aesthetic consideration.

It is for crappy crap garagecorenoise metal shit.

quote: Bobby Henderson
CDs (ones made in the 1980s

Sound really awful too for other reasons.

quote: Bobby Henderson
For example

Yeah I know what it is, and I know it exists, but the way people harp on about how it's destroying our recorded heritage or something is a bit OTT. And it's usually the people that don't let their cables touch the floor and buy rocks to stop cosmic particle interference.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-17-2011, 05:22 AM:

I can't remember where I saw it... it was definitely Youtube but I don't remember which exact video, but it showed a song released by an artist (maybe Billy Joel?) on CD back in whatever year it was. Then came the recent re-release or Greatest Hists album and the WAVE file showed tremendous clipping on the exact same song. Are you saying that they decided that they wanted to take an aesthetic approach to an already existing song by adding clipping to a simple Greatest Hits CD? What would this accomplish? Can't we turn up our own volume knobs?

The answer is no, we can't. Devices like iPods and whatnot are usually pretty limited in the overall dynamic range they can deliver through their super low quality ear buds. It really helps if the song is compressed to make it appear that you are hearing "all" of the song. The real problem is low quality sound components that cannot deliver good dynamic range. A huge culprit is the automobile sound system. Record companies want the songs to sound good and loud on shitty car systems and have for quite some time. Compressed sound helps when competing with traffic noise, ambulance sirens, screaming pedestrians and lots of other unwanted sounds you hear while driving. Once it was discovered that most people listen to music in their cars, stuff started getting more and more compressed. One thing is for sure, compressed sound is way more fatiguing to listen to. And no, you fools, I don't mean data compression, though that also makes my bowels stir with fragrant diarrhea.

I wish record companies would release two versions: Compressed and uncompressed. Use the crappy one in the car and the good one on a high quality home stereo system or with really good headphones (not ear buds).

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 07-17-2011, 10:32 AM:

Its all the crazy activity in the rears of 7.1 I don't really like.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-17-2011, 03:53 PM:

See? I knew you wouldn't answer the questions. You are so predictable.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 07-17-2011, 07:09 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
See? I knew you wouldn't answer the questions. You are so predictable.

I'm sorry, I didn't read your entire post, only the end. I will respond a little later to your other questions.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-20-2011, 02:18 AM:

Well now it's over two days later. So "a little later" must have a different meaning in Canada than it does in the U.S.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 07-20-2011, 07:50 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
1. Do you have the low frequencies from any speakers in your sound system clipped and routed to the subwoofer when in discrete modes (non-Pro Logic)?

No.

quote: Joe Redifer
2. Have you EQ'd your system and properly set all levels with an SPL meter or do you just press the THX button and assume everything will automatically be made as good as it can possibly be?

No, do not use my Pioneer Elite THX reciever any more.

quote: Joe Redifer
3. Is your comment about Air America a question? If so, it needs a question mark.

Yes....???

quote: Mike Blakesley
So "a little later" must have a different meaning in Canada than it does in the U.S.

Don't know about the US, but in Canada I can't respond to my own post or edit it either, thus I have to wait for someone to respond.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-20-2011, 11:50 AM:

Please elaborate on #2. All we learned there is that you don't use the Pioneer. But is the system calibrated with a meter? To what levels with each speaker? Are the surrounds set at the same level as the fronts?

Posted by Jason Whyte (Member # 1433) on 07-20-2011, 12:18 PM:

"Well now it's over two days later. So "a little later" must have a different meaning in Canada than it does in the U.S."

I just wanted to add that Tom Petrov's opinions do not reflect the opinions of the country of Canada, its residents and government. I am truly sorry that he is making our entire country look bad on film-tech.com

[Smile]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-20-2011, 12:20 PM:

First Bryan Adams and now Tom Petrov. You will be tried before the world court!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-20-2011, 02:13 PM:

quote: Tom Petrov
in Canada I can't respond to my own post or edit it either, thus I have to wait for someone to respond.

You can respond to yourself, just not right away. I don't know what the time limit is. There is a short window in which you can't respond OR edit but its pretty short.

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 07-20-2011, 03:48 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Please elaborate on #2. All we learned there is that you don't use the Pioneer. But is the system calibrated with a meter? To what levels with each speaker? Are the surrounds set at the same level as the fronts?

I will have to take a look and double check. My friend who is tech did for me while I was away. He works for a high audio store that is approved by THX.

I will check it a little later

Posted by Jeff Kane (Member # 6372) on 07-25-2011, 04:09 PM:

Joe has it. Overuse of compression and limiting DOES destroy the music, as it obliterates any dynamic range whatsoever. You can't restore it once it's been limited to death. When music is 'squished' like that? I turn it off. Not down, OFF. There's a huge difference between the trend in electronica to use limiting as an effect, and slamming everything to 100% 'cause you want it to 'be louder than anything else on the radio'.

Obscure example; Coheed and Cambria's "Welcome Home" off Rock Band sounds flippin' awesome. I bought the CD... not even thinking about compression. In technical terms, it sounded like utter ass. Car system, home system, it didn't matter. My solution was to 'rip' the audio from the game. An utter shame the entire album wasn't available that way.

What's worse? In some cases that very same squished mix is being pressed to VINYL! Yep, just what I wanted, a 200g audiophile copy of sonic shit. Maybe most people don't care about dynamic range? For me, the loss of it ruins the impact and enjoyment of the music. IT'S THE AURAL EQUIVALENT OF TYPING IN ALL CAPS!!!!!!!

And gee I never heard of a 'THX approved' audio store... do they all sell APT gear??? [Wink]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-25-2011, 04:59 PM:

THX even certifies toilets and babies. I've seen the video that proves it.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 07-25-2011, 07:54 PM:

Before we know it, THX Certification may also become THX Certified.

AJG

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 07-25-2011, 08:20 PM:

quote:
And gee I never heard of a 'THX approved' audio store... do they all sell APT gear??? [Wink]

Have you heard of a "approved" THX home installer? [thumbsup]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-25-2011, 08:45 PM:

It doesn't take anything more than a checkbook to get THX approved. This is fact. Quality is not an issue. THX approval means nothing any more. We've already had this discussion. Nobody is impressed by your THX certified home theater installer.

THX - We'll Certify ANYTHING!

Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 07-25-2011, 08:48 PM:

quote:
It doesn't take anything more than a checkbook to get THX approved. This is fact. Quality is not an issue. THX approval means nothing any more. We've already had this discussion. Nobody is impressed by your THX certified home theater installer.

THX - We'll Certify ANYTHING!

Cool, thanks Joe. I did not know that. [beer]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-25-2011, 08:51 PM:

Tonight, when you close your eyes to go to sleep, you will be able to sleep soundly with the warm thought of "Today I learned something new". It is a very comforting thought.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-25-2011, 09:31 PM:

Back "in the day" it did mean something.

btw: their own monitor was never certified! Louis