Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Reference level for home theater

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Posted by Steven J Hart (Member # 2340) on 01-22-2012, 01:05 PM:

When calibrating a Cinema B chain, we use a reference level of 85 db playing pink noise with the fader set at 7, so theoretically, all movies will be shown at the level the director intended (yeah, right). Anyway, is there any reference level when setting up a home theater? I know the Yamaha and Denon receivers i have worked with have a 0.0 level on the fader. Does this mean anything? I used Yamaha's YPAO calibration program when setting up my home theater. When watching a blue-ray connected through hdmi with the fader set at 0.0, the level doesn't seem as loud as what I experience in my movie theater with the fader set at 7. I measured peaks of around 92 db when playing Cars 2. I'm thinking it was a lot louder than this when I watched it in the theater, but I never measured it.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-22-2012, 01:31 PM:

Steven, the bad news is this: there are NO standards for home cinema, no matter what any salesman or equipment manufacturer claims.

Here in the US, our TV "standard" is NTSC, also know as Never The Same Color.

DVD's of a 1.85 original film aspect ratio for example, the letterbox size varies a lot.

As for sound, the situation is even worse. I have had levels all over the map.

I use a CP-650 in my home room, I set the "B" chain levels for 80db (83db surrounds, I like them hot) for the magic "7" fader setting. All video media feeds through a Denon receiver into the external 6ch input on the CP-650, and I leave the Denon set at "0.0".

I have had to run anywhere from 4.0 to 9.0 (on the CP-650) on various dvds or satellite sources to get a comfortable level comparable to a cinema.

It is a no-win situation.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-22-2012, 01:36 PM:

Tony, your "hot" settings remind me of the idiots with home theaters that come into a real cinema which is properly calibrated and complain because "OMG the surrounds aren't working!!! I can't hear the dialogue out of every speaker!"

[Razz]

Seriously though, running the surrounds hot hurts the overall sound in the room. I'm not speaking purely from a balance standpoint, I'm talking tonal quality/EQ.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-22-2012, 02:36 PM:

LOL yeah I have heard that same line from customers when I was working in the theatres myself.

As for the home situation, I did it because my speaker placement for surrounds sucks (JBL 8330's placed upside down on the floor in the rear corners) [Eek!]

so the extra level helps to get a perceived proper balance to my ears.

I am planning on (finally) getting a real house soon instead of this dinky apartment so I can finally get things set up correctly. [thumbsup]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-22-2012, 02:36 PM:

Brad,

Then you'll be particularly peeved that I've been instructed by studio for setting up one of their premiers to set the surround levels 2dB hot...personally, I'm thinking that at the studio level they could just RECORDED IT THAT WAY. [Roll Eyes]

Note, the CP650 IS some 2dB hotter than previous processors at the same fader setting...there was some discrepancy with the level that the Cat 85 put out versus the "standard" and they "fixed" it in the CP650 which, in effect, made the CP650 louder than other previous processors on the same movie at the same fader. It is one of those times that they should have left well enough alone.

-Steve

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-22-2012, 02:40 PM:

Ah ha!! And I thought it was my imagination that the CP-650 was hotter in level than the CP-65 I pulled from UCI (and my room)....now I know I wasn't totally nuts..

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 01-22-2012, 03:02 PM:

I'm bugged that the pink noise out of my Onkyo doesn't tell me what level it is at. I know that I've got an old Video Essentials DVD that was 75dB.

But you all are right: it's a shame there is no standard whatsoever for home cinema, even on THX processors. It's a real pain in the ass no doubt.

AJG

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-22-2012, 04:49 PM:

I set my receiver just like I would a cinema processor, EQ and all. But there is no "7" so I had to pick something arbitrary, like -10.0db. It goes up to +2db, I think. Generally, most movies are able to play at the same level though some home mixes have subwoofer channels that are way too hot or are messed up in other ways (like Empire Strikes Back having the center channel waaaay too low).

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-22-2012, 05:39 PM:

No, you can't do much, the level 0.0dB should be a level where the preamp section of your receiver is "unity gain". Then it depends on the efficiency of your speakers and the amplification stage.
To set proper levels, you could play a -20dB pink noise from your BD source and set main fader and levels to have 85-85-85/82-82/+10dB in your home theatre.
Rule of thumb is actually 75dB, but this is because most people won't listen to 115dB in their home!
If you connected external amplifiers to your receiver, then you should set the fader to 0.0dB and set the amplifiers to the proper gain to reach the correct levels at the listening point.

Posted by Steven J Hart (Member # 2340) on 01-22-2012, 08:29 PM:

Is 82 db still the reference level for surrounds in the cinema? I know that 82db + 82db = 85db, but it seems that standard was from ages ago when optical analog soundtracks were being used and mono surrounds were the norm. My new digital cinema install was set up this way, and I rarely hear much from the surrounds. They seem at a much lower level than my home setup which I think was properly done.

Steve

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-23-2012, 06:31 AM:

The cinema has and will remain 82 + 82 for compatibility reasons. For home it has always been that the surround levels using an internal generator should be at the SAME level as the front speakers. ... "the more you know"...

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-23-2012, 12:09 PM:

Reference level for home theatre -- your ears. You know what it sounds like in your cinema which presumably has been calibrated to standard, after all these years listening to cinema sound, you will pretty much know what sounds right to you...after all, you are the one listening to it. And given as has been said, lots of sources, lots of levels, you might as well use your ears.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 01-23-2012, 12:46 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr.
Here in the US, our TV "standard" is NTSC, also know as Never The Same Color.

No. NTSC was retired several years ago. The current TV standard is Digital via either a ATSC (broadcast) or QAM (cable/satalite) tuner. Current TV's that support the no longer used NTSC convert the signal internally.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-23-2012, 07:45 PM:

Oops, thanks for the correction.

Should ATSC now be "Attempting The Same Color? " [Big Grin]

I still notice bad variations in color, gamma and contrast from one channel to the next, and often within a given channel.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-10-2012, 09:45 AM:

I thought there was some new law with severe punishments like naked public flogging when the cable channels violate and abuse audio level "standards." As far as I can tell, commercials are STILL louder than hell.

I hardly ever watch TV in real time. I always record, even if I am there, I will wait 15-20 minutes for a buffer so I can zip thru what capitalism has wrought upon us. But so happens, last night the remote fell between the pillows and I couldn't find it fast enough. I have been mixing sound to know that this damn commercial came on at TWICE the program volume. BASTARDS. And this was 2A-effin-M. I thought we were done with this volume assault BS?

The thing that I can't understand is why do they do it? Do they really believe that it will make people pay more attention to their turd of a commercial? All it does is guarantee that every viewer will MUTE the sound or break a leg in the attempt to do so. If it were at a decent level they would have a much better chance of someone actually letting the thing play. At the levels they blast them, not only will no one HEAR the commercial because it's been MUTED in 2 million homes, but they've now have generated a strong, negative perception of that product for those 2 million who they've REALLY angered. Those pissed off millions may not remember exactly why they have that bad taste in their mouths like they've just swallowed rancid month-old milk everytime they even THINK of that brand, but that bad taste will be there...forever.

Let the public floggings being!