This is topic SCHINDLER'S LIST is magnificent on Blu Ray in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-06-2013, 02:47 PM:
 
SCHINDLER'S LIST was released on Blu Ray yesterday and it is magnificent! I first saw the movie at Pacific's Kahala 8 at the time it was first released and thought it was one of the best films I had seen. Steven Spielberg finally won his first directing Academy Award for the film which was long over due. In addition to the Academy winning direction and musical film score by a john Williams, was one for best cinematography by Janusz kaminski, ASC, an award he richly deserved. Universal had wanted Spielberg to photograph the movie in color but he felt only B&W would give the film a documentary look. The use of color in the beginning and the muted pink of the little girl's coat using color film stock but retaining the B&W look was very ingenious.

I still have the movie in a Laserdisc box set and the special edition DVD in the plastic box and thought the picture quality was great but the image on the new BD is much better and it is the best it ever looked and even better than the theatrical presentation.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-06-2013, 03:26 PM:
 
Nobody should be surprised that the Bluray looks better than the DVD and Laserdisc. That much should go without saying.

As for looking better than the film, it would depend on what kind of print your theatre played. My understanding is that most prints were actually on color stock to avoid the need to adjust focus between the color and black-and-white footage. Not a huge problem for a changeover house, but not going to happen in a platter situation.

B/W printed on color stock isn't going to look as good as true B/W. I have run a few different prints of "Schindler's List" over the years, and my memory of the color ones is that they seemed to have a bit of a green-ish caste to them.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 03-06-2013, 04:05 PM:
 
I remember seeing this at the Avalon Theater here in DC, and I thought it was either this or 'The Passion of Christ' that had a no-popcorn sale clause in the theatrical presentation. As for this bluray release, I'm going to order the UK digibook edition (which comes out at the beginning of April) to match my digi's of 'E.T' and 'Jaws'
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-06-2013, 04:45 PM:
 
I can see how theatres can enforce a 'no popcorn' rule in a single screen complex but how can they do it in a multi screen venue?

-Claude
 

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 03-06-2013, 05:28 PM:
 
I've handled a print of this...it was a bit greenish, but nothing that distracted. It looked very very good. Even the LaserDisc is stunning. I've played it back at 10 feet, scaled of course, and despite some noise, it looks very detailed. I can't wait to see this Blu-ray.

AJG
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-06-2013, 05:56 PM:
 
Both the digibook of ET and JAWS were Best Buy exclusives and I also have them, SCHINDLER'S LIST on Blu Ray comes in a very beautiful and sturdy digipac and I love it. Because I have the special editions of the movie on both laserdisc and dvd that includes printed texts with pictures, I am very content with the beautiful blu ray packaging of SCHLINDLERS LIST.

Aaron, when you purchased my collection of DTS laserdiscs, was one of them SCHINDLER'S LIST.? After purchasing the special edition laserdisc box set (limited to ten thousand copies), I think I also bought the DTS laserdisc.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 03-06-2013, 06:03 PM:
 
Indeed it was Claude. I had the normal PCM version prior, which has the same transfer save the 5.1 track. Both are wonderful.

AJG
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-06-2013, 06:17 PM:
 
I remember when we played that movie. Of course it was one of the most highly anticipated movies, so I was royally upset when the print received had splices sprinkled through it. It was only later that I found out that the movie used "real" B&W processing and the bits where there was color were spliced in by the labs.

I suppose when the prints were new, there was a note in the cans explaining that but by the time we got the print a couple months later, any such documentation was long gone.
 

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Posted by Jock Blakley (Member # 6552) on 03-06-2013, 06:17 PM:
 
We had a true B&W print of SCHINDER'S LIST until it was junked... that was something to see. Really showed what you could get from 5222 and 5231 with a good photochemical finish.

Some of the trailers were also on 5302 - if you can track one down they'll give you an idea of how a proper print would have looked.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-06-2013, 07:16 PM:
 
We had EK #8 of Schindler's List and it was black and white with color sections spliced in. It looked absolutely magnificent, and even though I haven't seen the bluray, I'm quite sure it looked better.

Please remember Claude when you make a statement like that...did you see the bluray projected onto a 60 foot screen? Even DVDs look pretty good on a small screen.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-06-2013, 08:57 PM:
 
Brad, I only have a forty six inch 1080p Samsung HDTV but Peter Brake at High Def Digest gave SHINDLER'S LIST a five star review for both picture and sound using a seventy inch Sony HD screen confirming how I feel about the bd of the movie. A great deal of the credit for the new release of SCHINDLER'S LIST should go to Steven Spielberg who personally supervised the creation of the blu ray from the original 35mm negatives.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-06-2013, 09:18 PM:
 
I'm not doubting that it looks good for BLURAY, but your statement just seems absolutely wrong that it looks better than the original release in theaters.

Hmmm, my math skills are rusty here, but let's see...

70 inches, measured diagonally
vs
60 feet, measured horizontally

Oh yeah, that's the same thing. Sorry for the confusion.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-06-2013, 10:34 PM:
 
Brad, I thought I had corrected my original post go read "---even better than the theatrical presentation in my honest opinion" but I can see, I did not and I am sorry I had implied that the picture quality of SCHINDLER'S LIST on the new blu ray disc is better than the actual film presentation. When I saw the movie at the kahala 8, it was not in the larger audiitorium but in one of the smaller house that was not set up for DTS, the only 5.1 soundtrack that the film had and the presentation was not very impressive. The screen was rather small and the sound was through a Kintek processor with one speaker in back of the screen and surround. Despite the presentation, I was however very moved by what I saw and the movie had left a lasting impression on me ever since.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-06-2013, 11:39 PM:
 
The print we had was black and white with color segments spliced in. I don't remember any focus issues. You could see where the color segments were on the platter. Most of the print looked very light gray and the color parts were normal brown-ish.

We sold a hell of a lot of popcorn to that movie and rightfully so. Great movie to eat hot dogs in or eat a box of Sweet Tarts. Any "no popcorn" clause is just prestigious nonsense. It's a movie and the theater is a business.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-06-2013, 11:51 PM:
 

quote: Joe Redifer

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The print we had was black and white with color segments spliced in. I don't remember any focus issues.

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Were your splices tape or ultrasonic? Ours were taped...but the tape went over two full frames so you didn't notice them going through the projector as much onscreen. I remember wondering if all the release prints had the tape splices or if there were some archival or "priority" prints with ultrasonic splices.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-07-2013, 12:29 AM:
 
ultrasonic
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-07-2013, 01:25 AM:
 
Mike,

The prints from Deluxe in California were ultrasonic, and as always those were the good prints. (Not as good as Technicolor's prints, but this was Deluxe's best lab.)

The prints from Deluxe in Canada were made with 8 perf tape, and those prints sucked just as everything that ever came out of that lab did. Most everyone, with exceptions, in the eastern half of the US got shafted week after week with the shitty Canada prints.

You know it's bad when people like Spielberg insist a few hundred prints for the prime theaters were struck at Technicolor...even though the studio's account was exclusively with Deluxe.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-07-2013, 02:07 AM:
 
You kids no nothing about color/black&white splicing. The master of that was Zelig
 

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Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 03-07-2013, 03:15 AM:
 
We had a long run with Schindler's List and eventually used 3 prints, the B&W stock turned to powder, fond memories of cleaning the projectors thoroughly after each change over every hour and the prints slowly getting very dirty. Our third print was the green biased color stock.

What was strange was that each print had different worded text about what happened to the people involved just before the end credits. From memory we weren't allowed to have an interval added to the show.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-07-2013, 08:33 AM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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We had EK #8 of Schindler's List and it was black and white with color sections spliced in. It looked absolutely magnificent, and even though I haven't seen the bluray, I'm quite sure it looked better.

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I watched that print at GCC Northpark 1-2 at the end of 1993. The print did look great. The sound was also very good too.


The reels with color footage added (in the movie's beginning, near the end and the scene with the girl wearing the red coat) had a noticeably different look. IIRC the color stock had a slightly cool perhaps blue cast to it and the contrast wasn't as deep as the black and white stock.

A funny thing in acquiring and printing imagery, we do the opposite thing with black and white material. A black and white negative or print is best scanned in full color and output on any sort of printed media that way. The black areas will be much deeper than it would if you're working with only one color channel (black as opposed to RGB/CMYK) and printing only with black ink. The downside of this is everything must be properly adjusted to avoid any color cast from invading the image. The slightest shift will be noticeable.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-07-2013, 12:27 PM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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Were your splices tape or ultrasonic? Ours were taped.

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I want to say taped but I am not 100% sure. The movie was built up before I was employed at that theater and I don't think I was the one to break it down.

Also, for clarity I meant "pretentious" in my last post, not "prestigious". Sometimes my vocabulary gets ... can't think of the word.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-07-2013, 12:56 PM:
 
The other one that deserves a mention here is A Matter of Life and Death. The prints were all on Technicolor IB stock, but the black-and-white sections were printed through one matrix only with key image dye (i.e. black). They even dreamt up a new name for it: the opening credits state that the movie was made in Technicolor and "dye monochrome". I suspect that this was done purely to avoid having to assemble release prints with dozens of cement splices in each reel (even assuming they didn't come apart after repeated projections, the pop on the soundtrack at each join would have ruined the movie). I have seen a 1940s nitrate print of it projected and the b/w scenes look sh!te - there is a hue that varies between reels, ranging from greenish to blueish.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-07-2013, 01:54 PM:
 
Bobby, the DTS discs were black with silver lettering, instead of the other way 'round. That might explain the great sound.

Actually, not all of them were black. I ran this movie a few times and, eventually, I stopped seeing the fancy ones. Imagine my disappointment.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-07-2013, 03:10 PM:
 
Do you mean silver with black lettering? I never saw a black DTS disk, except the occasional trailer one.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-07-2013, 08:40 PM:
 
You can see an image of one of the black discs in this thread.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-08-2013, 12:50 AM:
 
That was probably a remastered disc to deal with the difference in sub level. All discs stamped with "SMPTE RP200" were different.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-08-2013, 02:39 AM:
 
Ah. Of course. I completely forgot about that.

Hard to believe this stuff is 20 years old. In some ways, it seems like yesterday...and then I'm reminded that certain little details have started to fade.
 

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Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 03-09-2013, 06:02 PM:
 

quote: Leo Enticknap

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The other one that deserves a mention here is A Matter of Life and Death.

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I've only run a nitrate print here in Australia, and it looked amazing. We did no realize it was nitrate until we broke it down It had a six week season on all made up and run off a tower
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-09-2013, 06:33 PM:
 
I only watched the first forty five minutes of the blu ray of SCHINDLER 'S LIST when I commented about it the other day but I spent all of last night watching the entire film and "VOICES FROM THE LIST" and all I can say is "Wow"! Of all the black and white movies I have on blu ray, I consider SCHINDLER'S LIST among the top five when it comes to image quality. I always thought the dvd that was part of the special collection in the plastic case outstanding but on the scale of One to Ten with the bd scoring a perfect ten, the dvd in my opinion rates a 6 when I checked it after I watched the movie on blu ray. For some reason, the dvd that came with the bd is not same as the special edition dvd. i checked that one too and the dvd picture quality in the new set is almost unwatchable scoring about 3 or 4. The only good thing about the dvds in the bd set is the movie is split on two separate discs while the special edition dvd is a double sided single disc.

I also have the special numbered edition of SCHINDLER'S LIST on laserdisc but because I had disconnected the player from my AV system, I was not able to check it's picture quality but I can assume the picture quality on the special edition dvd to be better.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 03-09-2013, 09:17 PM:
 
^ DTS 'laserdisc' sound though is better than DVD audio and in some cases better than bluray.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-09-2013, 09:25 PM:
 

quote: Leo Enticknap

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The other one that deserves a mention here is A Matter of Life and Death.

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quote: Cameron Glendinning

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I've only run a nitrate print here in Australia, and it looked amazing. We did no realize it was nitrate until we broke it down

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quote:

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If you unwind the film a few feet then you
should be able to read some information
along the edges, beside the perforations.
Most film stock made after 1920 was marked
with what type of stock it was created from
with the words “Nitrate Film”, “Safety Film”
or sometimes just the letter “S” which denotes
that the stock is safety. If any of these phrases
can be read along the edges in black writing
then you know what you have. Make sure
that you are reading the black writing and not
any white writing on black – this would be an
imprint from the negative from which it was
made, which is not necessarily of the same film
stock.

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quote: Manny Knowles

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Ah. Of course. I completely forgot about that. Hard to believe this stuff is 20 years old. In some ways, it seems like yesterday...and then I'm reminded that certain little details have started to fade.

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There. Do you see how easy it is to forget/misremember decades-old details?
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-10-2013, 05:43 PM:
 
LOL -- okay, Mike.

Note to Tony -- Don't take the bait! Or this thread will get locked!!!!!!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-10-2013, 10:25 PM:
 
Tony, please listen to Manny. Its a very valid point.

On that subject, I wonder how many theaters when running older dts discs actually bother to lower their sub level. I'm going to bet pretty much zero.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-10-2013, 11:29 PM:
 
Sheesh, I wonder just how many theaters, at least here in the United States, are still running 35mm film prints & DTS.

At least here in my town 10 first run screens were using DTS. Now that number is down to zero. Both the Carmike 8 and Showplex Cinemas Central Mall 12 are all d-cinema now. Any DTS gear they still have on site is idle now, perhaps permanently. The Sheridan Theater on Fort Sill stopped showing movies in December. The Vaska is the only theater (bargain/2nd run) in Lawton still showing movies on film and its days are numbered. The owners are trying to figure out some solution, like maybe getting 2nd hand d-cinema gear from a house that's upgraded from 2K to 4K. But that isn't very likely. Chances are the theater space will be gutted and converted into space for some other kind of business. If it manages to serve as a theater venue it may be for live community theater purposes.
 

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 03-10-2013, 11:34 PM:
 
None Bobby. They're running Datasat!

AJG
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-11-2013, 10:18 PM:
 
Our Datasat XD-20 gets a lot of use as a decoder for Bluray audio.

Since we usually run repertory and international art house stuff, I hardly ever encounter a print with DTS time code and, when I do, the discs are usually nowhere to be found (or cracked).

To date, we have played exactly one feature in DTS: "Mean Girls."
 

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Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 03-11-2013, 11:14 PM:
 
The Regency 10 Theatres here in Bakersfield are still 35mm and have recently (within a few months) added DTS/Datasat units in most (or maybe all) auditoriums. I'm assuming they picked up gear cheaply with the final conversions of theatres with VPF deals. When this theatre was a Regal, all theatres hade DTS but the projectors and sound equipment were all pulled and Regency signed a new lease about a month later. They initially opened with 1 DTS and one SRD unit. Since they are located in a mall that is mostly empty and it is teetering towards bankruptcy, I doubt digital projection will ever be introduced here before it closes for good. gthis is a secondrun theatre, but the far cheaper subrun theatre on the opposite side of town was the first to fully convert to digital projection over two years ago.
 

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Posted by Jock Blakley (Member # 6552) on 03-11-2013, 11:46 PM:
 

quote: Manny Knowles

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Since we usually run repertory and international art house stuff, I hardly ever encounter a print with DTS time code and, when I do, the discs are usually nowhere to be found (or cracked).

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quote: Manny Knowles

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Is it possible that you had a reprint?

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No unfortunately, the experienced chief projectionist who broke it down is positive that was nitrate and was owned by a collector.

A few years later I was shown how to project nitrate safely/ legally and did so at London's National Film Theatre, complete with bottled CO2 attached to the projector and scissors in place.
 

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 03-13-2013, 08:56 AM:
 
Manny, at least you're ready to run Jurassic Park and those other early-mid 90s DTS only Universal prints! Too bad if you ever get Last Action Hero.

AJG
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-13-2013, 01:12 PM:
 
IIRC Sony/Columbia Pictures made only a handful of Last Action Hero prints in SDDS. Most prints of that movie were 35mm Dolby optical. A decent number of 70mm Dolby mag prints were made (I watched one of those 70mm prints at the UA Theater in Dallas near Northpark Mall - same day as my first screening of Jurassic Park at GCC Northpark 1-2).

The only SDDS shows of Last Action Hero in North America were in a couple Los Angeles movie theaters and one in New York (I think I heard about 1 SDDS equipped theater in Tokyo for Sony's own use). From that point until late Summer 1994 the AMC Century 14 in L.A. was pretty much the only place anyone in America could see a movie in SDDS. The format was really in a "test phase" (or marketing phase to get the SDDS brand in there with Dolby and DTS) until summer of 1994 when finished SDDS gear finally started getting distributed to movie theaters.

DTS had a much better format roll-out with Jurassic Park, even quite a bit better than Dolby Digital. Just counting DTS-6 screens alone, I'm certain DTS had more theaters equipped than Dolby had with the launch of Dolby Digital on Batman Returns.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-13-2013, 02:51 PM:
 

quote: Manny Knowles

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Is it possible that you had a reprint?

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I didn't handle the print of AMOLAD I saw, but the screening (in the mid-1990s at the National Film Theatre in London - might have been Cameron who showed it!) was advertised as being of a nitrate print, so it would have been a bit cheeky if it wasn't!

Edge markings can be confusing, especially on prints made around the time of the conversion; because a nitrate camera neg, IP or IN can then be contact printed onto acetate stock to the next generation, and then that safety stock back onto nitrate for the generation after that. I've seen late 40s/early 50s prints that appear to have gone from a nitrate camera neg > safety IP > safety IN > nitrate release print, and variations thereof. I suspect that after nitrate stopped being made (February 1950 at Kodak's Tennessee plant), there was lots of remaindered stock sitting around the place, which all had to be used up before nitrate was finally out of circulation.

The instant telltale signs that you've got nitrate are (i) the stock is a lot thicker than acetate - the difference is similar to the difference between acetate and polyester - and (ii) it had a mothbally, camphory type smell, quite unlike either VS or the residual smell from processing chemistry that is sometimes there on a new print.

There have been loads of rereleases and restorations of AMOLAD over the years, though, and so there will be lots of acetate and polyester 35mm prints kicking around.
 

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Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 03-13-2013, 03:18 PM:
 
This Blu Ray is sadly very very light on special features.
It's mainly stuff from the dvd.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-13-2013, 04:12 PM:
 
With the exception of one new short feature, the new bd set has only the stuff that was on the previous dvd and I had no problem with that. Steven Spielber and Universal could have only issued a blu ray set with the movie on one disc and the the special features on another but BD & DVD is the norm today. The 2nd dvd has part two of the movie running well over an hour and the special features running about an hour and a half, there was not too much space to include more features unless they went to another dvd but that would have increased the price of new blu ray set of SCHINDLER'S LIST and I do not think Spielberg wanted to do that.

When you consider laserdiscs costing about forty dollars and NO special features, blu rays are a bargain today with what ever additional features they come with. With prices as low as $22.95 at Best Buy for SCHINDLER'S LIST with a gorgeous picture on the blu ray and beautifully packaged, I was very happy with what I got.

-Claude
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-13-2013, 05:23 PM:
 
Why are you making excuses for Universal?

The industry has habituated consumers to expect special features on Bluray and DVD -- especially in the case of an "Anniversary" or "Special Edition" release of a high-profile movie.
 

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Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-13-2013, 05:34 PM:
 
I am not making excuses for Universal, Manny ! It is my personal opinion and I am entitled to it !

-Claude
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-13-2013, 08:05 PM:
 
But...but...

...who wouldn't want more?

quote:

---

One is fun, why not two?
And if you like two, you might as well have four
And if you like four, why not a few
Why not a slew
More! More!

If you've got a little, why not a lot?
Add a bit and it'll get to be an oodle
Every jot and tittle adds to the pot
Soon you've got the kit as well as the caboodle
More! More!

Never say when, never stop at plenty
If it's gonna rain, let it pour
Happy with ten, happier with twenty
If you like a penny, wouldn't you like many much more?

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quote: Manny Knowles

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The industry has habituated consumers to expect special features on Bluray and DVD -- especially in the case of an "Anniversary" or "Special Edition" release of a high-profile movie.

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