Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Robocop - Remastered Unrated Director's Cut

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-22-2014, 08:41 PM:

Finally, a Blu-ray version of Robocop worth buying has arrived on store shelves.

Most F-T participants are already familiar with story line of Robocop. For me it was one of those surprise hit movies. The previews made it seem really stupid, but it turned out to be quite an entertaining flick. The first time I watched it I sat through it twice at the Loews 34th East Six theater in Manhattan. The mix of comedy, satire, unflinching graphic violence and a really odd sensibility wrapped around an entertaining revenge story was a winning combination.

I could be wrong, but I think the upcoming remake, sanitized in PG-13 packaging, is probably going to suck. At the very least it won't have the same kind of impact as the original film.

Previously three other versions of Robocop have been released on Blu-ray, all using a very sub-par video transfer. I avoided buying any of those versions, sticking with my old Criterion Collection DVD. The new Blu-ray is sourced from a new 4K master, created with a 4K scan of the original camera negative.

The new Blu-ray looks a hell of a lot better. The image quality is not perfect, but the color, contrast and level of detail is pretty satisfying in most shots and vastly superior to DVD. The picture is sharp enough you can clearly some some errors (like the camera catching the "dead" Murphy on the hospital table blinking his eye). There is a lot of film grain in many camera shots. I checked the bit rate display on my PS3 and saw the level averaging 28 Mb/s.

The only area where the picture falters: the violent clips not originally included in the theatrical cut. I can only imagine those pieces of film were not stored very well. Perhaps only so much could be done (technology limits or budget constraints) to improve the look of those clips.

The new Blu-ray of Robocop features only the "unrated director's cut." I had hoped there would be a seamless branching option between the theatrical cut and unrated cut. DTS Master Audio 5.1 is the only English language option. It doesn't replicate the original Dolby SR optical mix.

The sound mix is pretty good. The mix isn't nearly as dynamic as those from movies originally made with 5.1 digital in mind. But it has a lot of discrete activity in all the sound channels and a few good panning effects too. The movie won a special achievement Academy Award in sound effects editing and was also nominated for the Best Sound Oscar. It was also Oscar nominated for film editing.

Some places, such as Best Buy and Amazon, have been offering the new Blu-ray at prices below $10. Other stores may have it priced higher, but also may be including coupons worth $7.50 to see the remake of Robocop hitting theaters February 12.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 01-22-2014, 10:08 PM:

I just watched Robocop and Robocop for the first time in probably 20+ years. I thought both movies were just plane awful. The dialog was pathetic, the acting was horrible, and the story lines were weak. Plus the way the visuals were done looked very fake.

Perhaps part of my perspective comes from watching them in the 2014 context. I'm sure I liked them more when I was in my teens or early 20's, but not enough that I was ever a fan.

As far as the update, I don't think there was anything in the movies that necessitated being done as an R rated film - especially since this is not a shot by shot remake. I found the violence to be more cartoonish than graphic. And other than that it was mostly language that cause the R rating.

I will say that story in Robocop 2 is probably more relevant in 2014, in a post Citizens United era, where big business really does have great political power.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-23-2014, 11:32 AM:

I liked Robocop. I found very little to like in Robocop 2. I never bothered watching Robocop 3. For those who did like the 1987 version of Robocop, I recommend the new Blu-ray. The bargain price makes it an even better deal.

quote: Justin Hamaker
As far as the update, I don't think there was anything in the movies that necessitated being done as an R rated film - especially since this is not a shot by shot remake.

The original Robocop from 1987 was very well known for its graphic violence. It was not a movie for kids. The MPAA gave the original cut an X rating. Paul Verhoven, Jon Davison & editor Frank J. Urioste trimmed a few scenes repeatedly to get an R rating. An animatronic model of Peter Weller's upper body was built to show Murphy getting shot through the head. Most of that dolly shot ended up on the cutting room floor. That footage was restored in the "unrated" version. The violence that remained in the R-rated cut was still pretty jarring -like Murphy's hand getting blown off with a shotgun. I think Paul Verhoven got a bit more lee-way with the MPAA when he made Total Recall, a much bigger budget project. BTW I thought the remake of that movie sucked.

With the remake of Robocop carrying a PG-13 rating, presumably so parents can bring their kids to the movie, it's not going to have anywhere near the impact of the original. This will probably be another movie to add to a long line of polished, bigger budget yet completely forgettable remakes. Worse yet, the sanitized PG-13 violence of the remake may do more to show violence being fun and without consequence. No blood, no mess.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-23-2014, 02:07 PM:

I have procured the new Robocop Blu-ray as well. This is the best result of the new movie coming out. I knew they'd make a new Blu-ray. Now what other movies need remakes so they can remaster and re-release the superior originals?

This is the first time I had ever seen the director's cut and honestly I didn't notice anything different or more violent.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-23-2014, 02:57 PM:

In the unrated cut ED-209 shot Mr. Kinney over 100 times. In the R-rated cut he shot Mr. Kinney only about 50 times.
[Big Grin]

The R-rated cut didn't have the tech people trying to yank ribbon cables out of IC boards either. Obviously a big plot hole in that board room scene: if they were just running a little test in front of the executives why would they load ED-209 with real bullets? In that instance if ED-209 noticed his guns were loaded with blanks or not loaded at all he could have ran over and smashed Mr. Kinney with one of his gun arms. Maybe they'll have that joke in the remake.
[Razz]

The most stuff was cut from (and later restored to) the scene where Murphy gets shot all to hell by Clarence Boddicker and his racially diverse team of bad guys. All of the restored footage looks pretty terrible grafted in with the stuff from the R-rated cut.

There's a tiny bit more graphic footage restored where Robocop stabs the main bad guy in the neck with the pointy data I/O thingie on his hand.

quote: Joe Redifer
Now what other movies need remakes so they can remaster and re-release the superior originals?

They might have to go the remake route to get any Blu-ray discs at all out of The Abyss and True Lies. More Terminator movies have been made and new ones are in the works, yet that Blu-ray is kind of "meh" in the image quality department.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 01-23-2014, 03:06 PM:

I saw ROBOCOP when it was first released in 1987 at the cinema complex at Universal Studio's theme park in LA. Dolby SR was the latest thing in sound at the time and no Hawaii theatres had it so I am glad I had the opportunity to see the movie at that Los Angeles theatre with the sound I too enjoyed the movie very much and got the DVD and Laserdisc but never bothered to get the Blu a Ray because of the poor reviews I kept reading about the picture quality . I was overjoyed when I learned about the new BD made from a brand new 4k scan from the original camera negative and ordered it from Amazon and my copy should arrive any day now.

-Claude

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 01-23-2014, 03:16 PM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
I saw ROBOCOP when it was first released in 1987 at the cinema complex at Universal Studio's theme park in LA. Dolby SR was the latest thing in sound at the time

I think there is some great debate over at bluray.com in whether the original bluray used the info from the 6 track magnetic tracks from the release in 70mm back in 87. I think the 70mm release in 87 is also for debate as well. I wonder if the audio from this release is the same as the original bluray.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-23-2014, 03:36 PM:

Maybe Michael Coate can weigh in on this. I distinctly remember the original 1987 theatrical release. There were no 70mm engagements advertised in New York City. A couple or so theaters had Robocop playing in 35mm Dolby SR. The theater where I watched it had at least 2 or more screens equipped with 70mm (I watched Black Rain in 70mm at that venue). I watched it in 35mm Dolby SR optical.

I don't remember Robocop having any 70mm engagements advertised in the Los Angeles market either. If 70mm prints were made they must have been made later for the movie's European release.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 01-23-2014, 04:17 PM:

Weighing in...

I can confirm there were no advertised 70mm presentations of RoboCop in any of the major U.S. markets that typically played 70mm when prints were available. I saw it first-run at Mann's Chinese in a 35mm Dolby Spectral Recording presentation.

FWIW, RoboCop is listed as 70mm in Dolby's master records. But...lots of titles were mixed in six-track with the intention of getting a 70mm release that ultimately got released only in 35mm. And...those records make no distinction for language...and it wasn't uncommon for American-made movies to get a 70mm release internationally but not domestically.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 01-23-2014, 05:11 PM:

I know this debate rages on elsewhere, Criterion claims that the original source is a 2-Track Dolby Stereo 35mm magnetic master. Those on other forums believe there was a split surround 6 track made for 70mm releases. Others say that the split surround was never made. I have yet to see any evidence that there was in fact a 70mm release. The debate goes on.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-23-2014, 10:07 PM:

Here's the "about the transfer" verbiage from my Criterion Collection DVD:

quote: Criterion
ROBOCOP is presented in its director-approved aspect ratio of 1.66:1. This new digital transfer was created from the pristine 35mm interpositive and the original 35mm 2-track Dolby Surround® stereo magnetic master.

I had already thought Robocop never had any 70mm prints. The Criterion DVD did more to firm my beliefs about that. I've seen some of the Dolby lists Michael mentioned and wondered about some of those titles.

Dances With Wolves was one in particular that had no 70mm prints in its original North American release (BTW this was another Orion release that went out 35mm Dolby SR optical as its best print in the US). Yet I've heard people talk about 70mm prints existing for that one. And that could be true considering how much more dynamic the 5.1 mix was on the 2-disc DTS DVD. But still, I'd like to see some 70mm ads of that one, as well as Robocop.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 01-24-2014, 12:37 AM:

That verbiage is the exact same working from the Criterion laserdisc, the dvd used the same laserdisc transfer.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-24-2014, 11:03 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
More Terminator movies have been made and new ones are in the works, yet that Blu-ray is kind of "meh" in the image quality department.

I saw a remastered Blu-ray right next to the remastered Robocop in the store. I couldn't tell if it has the original mono track... probably not. Not sure if it was really remastered or not.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-25-2014, 03:06 AM:

I don't have any of the Terminator movies on Blu-ray yet. I guess I would have to look closely at what is included on the disc before buying. My Terminator DVD has both the original mono mix and the 5.1 remix.

I kind of have a preference for the mono track on the first Terminator movie only because the sound effects in that cut were what I was used to hearing. The 5.1 remix is extremely different and not really good different. For instance, I realize they used the "Dirty Harry" .44 Magnum sound effect for the Terminator's .45 Longslide sidearm in the original mix (and reused the same sound effect for a different revolver later). But that's what was in the original mix. The newer 5.1 remix had handgun sound effects that didn't sound anything like a .45 handgun at all. Not even close. Honestly, I've never heard any handgun sound like that ever.

There was one part in T2 where Linda Hamilton was firing a .45 into an office ceiling and the "pop" from that handgun actually sounded realistic.

Posted by Michael Putlack (Member # 6523) on 02-01-2014, 02:04 AM:

Fun fact: Robocop was the first R Rated movie I ever saw. It was at my cousin's house on VHS when I was probably 10 or 11.

The first PG-13 movie I ever saw was Jurassic Park when I was probably 10 as well.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-01-2014, 01:38 PM:

Michael...check the Washington Post and look for the Avalon. I thought it ran Robocop in 70mm. Being close to 30 years ago, I definitely don't have a strong recollection but that is where I did see the movie.

I distinctly remember having to equip theatres with "SR" for that movie too...A company called "Audio Rents" rented out SR cards for those that were just running the one title and before things like the SRA-5 came out.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 02-01-2014, 02:03 PM:

I've had the Criterion LaserDisc for years...the unrated cut scenes always felt seamless to me. Too bad the new disc doesn't seem to have that same effect. It's also definitely more graphic, especially during Murphy's blown to hell scene. They even built a special model and animatronic to pull off the shot...but cut it from the theatrical release.

Still, I need to go out and pick this one up for the price.

One of my favorite films.

AJG

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 02-01-2014, 02:47 PM:

The "director's cut" shots look relatively seamless in standard definition, although the shots do look darker than the theatrical cut footage on my Criterion DVD.

I think the quality differences are far greater looking on Blu-ray since the 4K scan and new master go a lot farther at revealing the conditions of the different film sources.

BTW, Screen Junkies just did their "Honest Trailers" take on Robocop. Pretty hilarious.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 02-13-2014, 06:37 PM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
I just watched Robocop and Robocop for the first time in probably 20+ years. I thought both movies were just plane awful. The dialog was pathetic, the acting was horrible, and the story lines were weak. Plus the way the visuals were done looked very fake.

While I respect your views on the film, I can't disagree with you more. RoboCop is an outstanding movie which was one of the better films of the 1980s. A sleeper hit in 1987 a film which got tremendous reviews, made decent box office money, has a cult following, it truly was a great film, and yes I call it a film.

The beauty of RoboCop is that it was made in the old fashioned way of film making with stop motion animation, rear projection, matte paintings, multiple locations (Dallas and Pennsylvania), it was pretty cool that they built a life sized ED209 (although it was static and did not move).

The acting was good.

quote: Justin Hamaker
I will say that story in Robocop 2 is probably more relevant in 2014, in a post Citizens United era, where big business really does have great political power.

Let's also not forget that RoboCop was a political satire as well.

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
Dolby SR was the latest thing in sound at the time and no Hawaii theatres had it so I am glad I had the opportunity to see the movie at that Los Angeles theatre with the sound I too enjoyed the movie very much and got the DVD and Laserdisc

Just me, but I would rather listen to the original mix than a 5.1 remix, not everything needs to be discrete. I could care less how much "panning" there was in the surrounds, good sound is not about panning. I also think a lot of people forget that RoboCop was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Sound (won for a special achievement). Who knows if someone new remixed the new bluray mix and for the simple fact that original mix is omitted is disturbing.

quote: Aaron Garman
I've had the Criterion LaserDisc for years.

quote: Michael Coate
FWIW, RoboCop is listed as 70mm in Dolby's master records.

Perhaps Aaron can confirm if there was any clarification in the directors audio commentary from Verhoeven that there was indeed a 70mm release of RoboCop?

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 02-13-2014, 08:25 PM:

I will never forget seeing the 1987 "Robocop" at the Showcase Cinemas Eastgate 8 in Eastgate, Ohio. My friend and I, both under 17, purchased tickets for the movie "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" and then snuck into "Robocop" with the help of the theatre's security guard. I loved it. I also liked the new one that came out yesterday.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 02-14-2014, 10:09 PM:

Dennis, 27 years from now, will you remember where you saw the 2014 version of Robocop?

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 02-15-2014, 12:02 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Michael...check the Washington Post and look for the Avalon. I thought it ran Robocop in 70mm. Being close to 30 years ago, I definitely don't have a strong recollection but that is where I did see the movie.

I distinctly remember having to equip theatres with "SR" for that movie too...A company called "Audio Rents" rented out SR cards for those that were just running the one title and before things like the SRA-5 came out.

this played at the Avalon ? how'd miss that there - since that's my neighborhood theater - I saw this movie in the theater down at Embassy.

as for the bluray - the 4K remaster looks great, aside from a moment of restored gore (Clarence's throat gouging) where the grain of the image is magnified and looks overblown.

however the sound particularly the bass is nowhere as good or oomphy as the Image laserdisc edition of the film

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 02-15-2014, 01:07 PM:

quote: Michael Coate
...and it wasn't uncommon for American-made movies to get a 70mm release internationally but not domestically.

I couldn't swear to it, but I think I showed a 70mm blowup as a Saturday late-night students' show in Britain in the late '90s.

As for the BD, I haven't seen it, but am a bit depressed by the feedback here. It doesn't let you see the cut of the film as it was seen by a widespread audience on its initial release, and nor does it let you hear that audio mix, either. This is basically a modernized version and that's all you get.

The original is a classic, but more for the black comedy of its script than anything else: the critique of globalization and the 1980s "greed is good" culture (e.g. the hostage taker who demands a better company car), mutually assured destruction reduced to a kids' game ("Nukem") and so on and so forth. I haven't seen this new version, but would speculate that if there is extra-violent footage that didn't make the final cut in 1987, it was left out for a reason - that what did go in was enough to make the point. If the extra footage exists, by all means include it as an extra (or, as Bobby suggests, use the BD code platform to allow the viewer to choose to include it or not as the main movie plays), but I'm not comfortable with denying the viewer the ability to see the movie as it was released in 1987.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 02-15-2014, 01:14 PM:

why would you ever want to see the R-rated cut version of the film? (I'm just curious) - thankfully EVERY home video release has been the full cut of the film.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 02-15-2014, 05:37 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Michael...check the Washington Post and look for the Avalon. I thought it ran Robocop in 70mm. Being close to 30 years ago, I definitely don't have a strong recollection but that is where I did see the movie.

I'll take another look, Steve, but my recollection is that Washington, DC was among the markets checked back when I was doing research for a 70mm database project for a home theater publication. (Much of that research evolved into the 70mm blow-up listings found on In70mm.com.)

Finding that there did not appear to have been any 70mm presentations of RoboCop in LA or NY, I recall my initial thought was that maybe 70mm prints were booked in markets where there weren't any Dolby SR installations, speculating the distributor did not want to deal with having to promote two different "premium" formats in the same market on top of the customary sorting out of any standard Dolby and mono presentations. Newspaper promotion for several other cities was checked, though, and no evidence could be found of any 70mm presentations (and you guys already know my thoughts on 70mm prints being screened without promotion, so I won't even go there).

The conclusion drawn at the time was that RoboCop's distributor, Orion, who were never all that hot on releasing films in 70mm, cancelled any domestic plans for 70mm, going instead with 35mm-SR prints in the key bookings. I think the odds are decent, though, that there were 70mm prints internationally, perhaps in Japan or Latin America where those territories historically played a lot more 70mm than North America and Europe. I also have a hunch a 70mm print may have been used during the Academy Award nomination "bake-off" screenings.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 04-13-2014, 12:43 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Michael...check the Washington Post and look for the Avalon. I thought it ran Robocop in 70mm. Being close to 30 years ago, I definitely don't have a strong recollection but that is where I did see the movie. I distinctly remember having to equip theatres with "SR" for that movie too...A company called "Audio Rents" rented out SR cards for those that were just running the one title and before things like the SRA-5 came out.

The Washington Post, July 17, 1987

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-14-2014, 10:11 AM:

I saw Robocop twice during the opening week. Once at the Mann's Village Theatre and at the DGA Theatre both presentations were in 35mm Dolby SR Stereo.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-03-2014, 10:29 PM:

quote: Jonathan Goeldner
why would you ever want to see the R-rated cut version of the film? (I'm just curious) - thankfully EVERY home video release has been the full cut of the film.

Apologies for the late reply - forgotten that I'd posted on this thread.

An historian working in the 2080s and researching, say, American politics and popular culture in the 1980s, might want to know what the mainstream audience saw when the movie was first released and what they didn't (and why they didn't see the bits that were included in later releases). Knowing who saw what and when can be important. Footage that didn't make it into an initial release was left out for a reason. This can be one of many - censorship, audiences at test screenings thought it was too long, studio executives didn't like it, the filmmakers simply didn't like the scene as shot and therefore left it out of the final cut, etc. etc.

Nowadays we have the cult of the director's cut, "back from the dead" rediscoveries, and other ways of re-selling old movies, which in essence consist of claiming that you've made them better in some way. Sometimes censorship ends up happening for the re-release which didn't in the original, hence the infamous substitution of walkie-talkies for guns in E.T. and countless examples of the n-word being dubbed over (Guy Gibson's dog in The Dam Busters now being called Jigger, Digger or Trigger, depending on whose DVD you buy). The bottom line is that you've changed the movie into something that is fundamentally not what the initial audience saw. I'm not claiming that it's wrong per se to do that, but when a rerelease home video package takes away the option to see the version that was initially mass-released, it makes me uneasy because effectively you're trying to rewrite history.