Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What the Hell is with Microsoft Update?

This is topic What the Hell is with Microsoft Update? in forum The Afterlife at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-15-2016, 12:51 PM:

I just loaded a full install of Windows 7 Pro 64 bit on a customers booth computer where the hard drive failed and then activated it just fine. Then I went to let it sit and upgrade................................................. Normally this process takes a couple to three hours to do the 200+ updates. All day yesterday it ran and ran and ran and downloaded a total of seven updates. Then I thought, ok... I'll upgrade it to Windows 10 since all the projector apps run fine under it. Well, the Win 10 upgrade downloaded and it created the install file all in about a half hour but then it went to upgrade the Windows 7 install I just did before it could do the upgrade to 10 and it did exactly the same thing... sat and checked for updates. So I pulled the Win. 10 upgrade back and let it sit overnight and check for Updates. This morning I rebooted the computer and it had installed about a dozen updates. So what gives with Microsoft? And is there any other way available to install all the 200+ updates?

Mark

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 04-15-2016, 02:15 PM:

I have found that W10 upgrade can hang in the checking for updates mode. Try disabling the Windows Update Service before you do the upgrade. services.msc from the command mode.

Posted by Mike Schulz (Member # 4297) on 04-15-2016, 02:24 PM:

If you have the Windows 10 image, just to a clean install. I learned long ago to never let Microsoft handle OS upgrades and since you're starting from scratch right now anyway, it's much easier and better to just let the Windows 10 installer nuke your hard drive and install it fresh.

There is definitely a way to create a Windows 7 image with all of the system and security updates included but it's a pain in the arse to do. In the Windows XP days, the process was called "Slipstream" and there were even apps made that did it all for you. I haven't heard of an app for Windows 7 so you would have to do it all manually.

Posted by Matt Olson (Member # 6849) on 04-15-2016, 02:29 PM:

I have had issues in the past when a single update fails it stops other updates from installing and also stopped windows from finding new updates. If you look in the view update history you can see if you had any update's fail. Then you can search for the KBxxxxx file on MS web site download that file and update it.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 04-15-2016, 02:43 PM:

I loved doing the Slipstream stuff with XP. You could even customize settings right on the install disc so you didn't have to change things after the install was completed. Not sure if there are still apps like that out there.

I've been a Mac user mostly since 2006, and haven't looked back. Persistent updates was one of many many reasons for switching.

AJG

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-15-2016, 05:10 PM:

I actually am not upgrading to Win 10 on this. It just tried it to see if it was any quicker and it was not. I did another fresh install and just let Windows Update do its thing. At this rate it'll take three weeks.

I did a little more research and found a couple recent articles that both say MS is getting slammed with Windows 10 upgrades and their servers are bogged down. All the Windows 7 systems that have to be upgraded before Windows 10 upgradecan be installed is whats causing this to happen. One would think MS would have planned for this...

Upgrading a fresh install of Windows 7 used to be a couple hour affair at most, not at this point in time though. If one can load from an image with all the updates already applied you are better off. I'll be making an image of this drive when it finishes updating some time in the next few weeks!

And so far no updates have failed.

Mark

Posted by Mike Schulz (Member # 4297) on 04-15-2016, 06:29 PM:

Out of curiosity, what will this booth computer be used for? If it is only going to be used to control the projectors and whatnot and the internet is not a necessity then you can probably get away with not even bothering to update Windows if VNC and everything else is already working on it. The security updates are really only necessary if it will be always connected to the internet.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 04-15-2016, 07:21 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
One would think MS would have planned for this...

What made you think that?

What does this have to do with the afterlife anyway?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-16-2016, 02:06 PM:

Its mainly a remote computer, so the security updates are important. They also use it to retrieve their KDM's.

So two days later the updating is almost finished. I could have also used Windows updater but the key will only activate so many times in a six month period and I didn't want to lose the ability to just actvate on line. To use updater I would have had to do another fresh install and activate again. Plus I wanted to see how long this is really gonna take.

Plan on two days! I hope MS fixes this problem....

Mark

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-17-2016, 03:37 PM:

What the hell is this doing in The Afterlife? Did you even read the forum description?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-17-2016, 07:06 PM:

Mark - there are tools to download and store all Microsoft updates on a USB Stick, then perform upgrades later from that local media without an internet connection. Depending on the offline-update state, all that is left to do then on the target system is to install the very latest updates online.

I always have this stick with me, containing all XP, WIN7, and Office updates. Every now an then, I update it to the most current versions.

http://download.wsusoffline.net/

- Carsten

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-17-2016, 10:07 PM:

Doesn't Windows download updates in the background then install the next time the computer is restarted?

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-17-2016, 10:54 PM:

It depends on how the Windows Update Service is configured, if it's connected to a Windows domain pushing a certain update policy, a local WSUS server, etc. You can also download and install updates in the foreground.

At least it worked that way until Windows 7. With Windows 10, they put a semi-self-aware monster in there that's now in charge of updates.

Actually, you could even download all the MSI bundles associated with all the updates/KBs and run them by hand if you would. That's the way updates worked on Windows before Microsoft introduced Windows Update and before there were 10 new updates every week.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-18-2016, 02:04 AM:

Hmmm... That stinks.

I have mine set to download updates in the background then send me a notification when updates are ready. I can accept, decline or delay the install until the next time I restart the computer. I can also disable this feature and do my updates manually if I want.

I don't have to configure a server or create any kind of policy or script. I just activate automatic updates and it just works.

I don't care what brand of computer or operating system. ALL computers should do it this way.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-18-2016, 02:58 AM:

I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution. In general, I don't like the idea of automatic updates for production machines. You essentially give control over your machine to someone else.

The accumulated experience of many years of "automatic updates" is that many updates, unfortunately, break stuff. Sometimes even intentionally...

For internet exposed systems, automatic updates are probably a good thing for most environments. It's certainly not perfect, it's actually the less of two evils. Too many machines get infected by malware because of lack of security updates. The risk of the sporadic bad update outweighs the risk of your system becoming hijacked, which is VERY real and seemingly happens to millions of people every day.

Then again, you shouldn't go surfing the web or opening up all kinds of ports to your servers and other backend infrastructure. So, you can ask yourself the question why you would even want to install updates if stuff works the way it should?

Besides bug fixes and added and required new functionality, the only reason to keep in line with updates on infrastructure on a secure network is to keep in line with your suppliers and to keep your system compatible with future updates. Then again, there is usually no need here to live on the bleeding edge.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-18-2016, 09:38 AM:

I generally don't like pushed, automatic updates for operating systems and other software. However, I can understand why the industry has moved in that direction. It's all about dealing with two kinds of computer users: 1.: Criminals, 2.: People who just don't update their software even when the update is probably a good idea.

With Windows 10, Microsoft has forced automatic updates onto users with security being the overwhelming primary reason. The strategy seems to be if they can get as many Windows users as possible onto Win 10 (with automatic security updates that can't be avoided) that will put a serious dent in malware activity.

It's one thing if you're an experienced computer user who knows what he is doing and have legitimate reasons for delaying or even avoiding certain software updates. Most casual users do not fall into this camp at all. If they can even figure out how to turn off automatic updates they often do so just to avoid getting pestered by some update thing that will get in the way of their Facebook activity. Then they'll go for years without updating anything. They'll let their anti-virus software expire (if they even had any in the first place). I still encounter people who store anything and everything into the My Documents folder or cram it all onto the Desktop because they never bothered to learn the basics of how to manage files and folders. These are the same kinds of people who'll click onto any link they see in an email, a web site they probably shouldn't be visiting or an instant message from that new Facebook friend who strangely has no other friends.

We can thank the criminals and idiots of the world for ruining a good thing.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-18-2016, 01:10 PM:

When an update is released, I still have the chance to accept, reject or delay the installation even when my computer is set to update automatically.

I can turn off automatic updates and still download in the background even when I am set to manual and, once downloaded, the computer notifies me and I can STILL have a chance to accept, reject or delay installation.

There are a few updates/upgrades that I haven't chosen to install for personal reasons. When I go to my update screen, they are still there for me to choose. If I choose to install them, they will download in the background if I want.

If there are updates that I don't ever want to apply, I can tell my computer to hide them so they don't appear on my update list unless I un-hide them.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-02-2016, 02:11 AM:

I have what might be a stupid question, but one which so far I have not gotten a satisfactory answer to: these companies that install update paths to your PC that is running their software, e.g., Adobe, Brother, HP, Oracle, and on and on, they seem to have a direct access or "in" to the PC by way of those popups that say they have updates for you to install.

Everyone knows of the admonitions to not open unknown links or not to click on that email invite, but there doesn't seem to be any serious worry about that popup that says "your HP LaserJet needs to be updated...click to install."

My question is, how do you know who is on the other end of that request to allow an update? Why do we assume that it is in, fact, HP or Brother or MS or whomever? Seems like that would be the FIRST place a hacker would try to attack to install a trojan, disguising himself as a trusted company, one the user is already disposed to agree to without giving it a second thought; no one says, wait a minute, how do I know this is HP requesting permission to install stuff on my PC? Why couldn't it just as easily be someone who has hacked the port that HP seems to have such easy access to and is about to install disastrous malware instead of a printer update? How is this route to the taskbar dialog icons protected? You KNOW 90% of all PC owners are going to click on OK for those requests without question. This seems like a super high risk issue.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 7758) on 05-02-2016, 10:04 PM:

I think that's a really great question, and my answer will be a lot less definitive than someone who's expertise lies in computer security.

The main reason it's safe is because the update happens through dedicated processes created by each software company. These are installed when you initially put the software on your computer. Most importantly, it appears that the installed software, process, and remote server all have to handshake on an update before it proceeds.

You can see the evidence of this by opening Task Manager, opening the Processes tab, and (as administrator) clicking at the bottom for showing processes from all users. Among the dozens of pieces of gobbletygook there, you're likely to see update processes for Adobe, Apple, Java, HP, and who knows what else.

If these were easy to exploit, believe me, they would be. You know that.